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Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by SamCogar on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:37 am
Tuesday June 10, 2008
Judy Wagoner: Giles' problem is the tip of the iceberg
THE suspension of a student at Capital High School regarding the ambiguity of a dress code policy and flip flops is indicative of troubles within our schools that are far more serious than the choice of footwear.
The student's suspension was not the frivolous consequence of exposed toes.
The circumstances surrounding the suspension clearly define the tone of the student's confrontation with the principal as argumentative.
Principal Clinton Giles was well within his authority to demand respect from the student who repudiated his judgment.
The student flagrantly disregarded his status as administrator of the school when she proceeded to dispute the principal's position on the flip-flop policy.
Not too long ago, several girls at my school decided to ignore the dress code policy and shed all modesty.
Exposing much more than just cleavage, they became indignant when I insisted that they cover up, call home, or wear a school shirt.
Our vice principal casually commented to a group of girls that flip-flops were not permitted and one of the girls began screaming at her.
As she screamed at the vice principal, several students began to clap rhythmically in support of the screamer.
The screaming student was disrespectful, irrational and aggressive.
Student bystanders witnessing the confrontation became agitated and combative.
Within moments, a defiant student had unleashed verbal abuse onto our vice principal, and several of her peers were exhibiting behaviors much like those with a mob mentality.
We are experiencing an alarming increase in the number of students displaying open defiance.
Not only are the students willfully insubordinate, but their parents defy all reason and encourage them to challenge their teachers and school administrators.
Parents are succumbing to the willfulness of their children, and are relinquishing their parental authority.
The children, confident in their abilities to manipulate their parents, anticipate the surrender of adult authority at school.
When these unruly children are reprimanded for a breach of school policy, they argue, become enraged, and throw tantrums or make threats. Their parents make excuses for their bad behavior and often verbally assault or threaten school personnel.
School policies are necessary instruments of control in the school setting to ensure a positive, safe, and productive learning climate.
They must be written explicitly so as to avoid exploitation by students and their disgruntled parents.
Dress codes are especially essential in our present sexually oriented culture.
They prohibit apparel and accessories that are hazardous or indecent. They are designed to limit classroom distractions and reinforce academic proficiency.
I am continually amazed when parents complain about the dress code and blatantly scorn the policy.
With pregnancy rates soaring in high schools, grandparents raising their grandchildren, and sexually active sixth-graders, many mothers continue to defend their scantily clad daughters' promiscuous behaviors.
Clinton Giles is not running scared. Administrators and teachers everywhere should applaud his leadership abilities.
He demands respect from his students, and he should accept nothing less.
Wagoner is a teacher at Hayes Middle School in St. Albans and a free-lance writer.
http://www.dailymail.com/Opinion/Commentary/200806100091 [/color]
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Aaron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:24 am
The inmates took over the asylum a long time ago.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by stinkyj on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:36 am
Shouldn't the students be encouraged to test boundaries and question authority? Even by outright defying it, when the need arises?
Or should they be taught to just conform, no matter how silly the rules are?
Or should they be taught to just conform, no matter how silly the rules are?
The poster formerly known as hyperstation
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Aaron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:50 am
How is screaming at a teacher and creating a mob mentality testing boundries?
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Aaron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:54 am
Would this be considered testing the boundries or questioning authority???
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lXGZPQtaDdw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lXGZPQtaDdw
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Stephanie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:08 am
stinkyj wrote:Shouldn't the students be encouraged to test boundaries and question authority? Even by outright defying it, when the need arises?
Or should they be taught to just conform, no matter how silly the rules are?
We have taught our children the importance of civil disobedience. We have also taught them they must expect and accept the consquences of their actions.
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by stinkyj on Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:11 am
Aaron wrote:Would this be considered testing the boundries or questioning authority???
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lXGZPQtaDdw
no, of course not. screaming about it is irrational, and very teenager-ish. you don't think i'm promoting that, do you?
i'm saying, there's a no flip-flop rule. it's dumb, and there are much more important things to worry about. a group of kids challenging that rule, in any way they can, from a student council resolution to wearing flip-flips en masse would be acceptable.
but as stephanie mentioned, they must be ready to face the consequences.
and i'm typing this from my sleeper cabin on a train, how about that?
The poster formerly known as hyperstation
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Aaron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:44 am
No I don't think you're promoting that Jeremy.
The problem with standing up to authority is, most don't want to face the consequences. Apparently Giles went off once he set down for the interview, complaining about not being respected and stuff of that nature. Part of the problem is in that we've let our kids run the asylum. I truly believe that. There is no discipline anymore so it's no longer challenging authority, which we've all done, or pushing the limits. We knew there were consequences. A lot of kids don't. They don't face them at home or at school and they think they can get by with pretty much whatever that want.
It's a different world we live in and part of the problem is the inability to adapt by some of the administrators and teachers. They think they can play by the same rules that were imposed on them and it doesn't work like that. This Giles wants to be an authoritarian and demand respect and that's not going to happen. Instead of expecting the kids to uniformly adapt to and jump at his every command, he's got to play the system as it's set up and for something like a school clothing violation, all he has to do is enforce the written policy. Give them the option of conforming or send them home. Don't argue, fight or fuss, simply tell them it's like this or bye and let their parents handle the problem.
When the parents start crying, simply pull the policy out, show them how the student was in conformance and move on. Don't argue with them either. Tell them if they have a problem, take it to the school board. Unfortunately, there's no discipline any longer in the school system so just pass the buck along, teach the kids that want to be there and get rid of the rest. Harsh but simple.
The problem with standing up to authority is, most don't want to face the consequences. Apparently Giles went off once he set down for the interview, complaining about not being respected and stuff of that nature. Part of the problem is in that we've let our kids run the asylum. I truly believe that. There is no discipline anymore so it's no longer challenging authority, which we've all done, or pushing the limits. We knew there were consequences. A lot of kids don't. They don't face them at home or at school and they think they can get by with pretty much whatever that want.
It's a different world we live in and part of the problem is the inability to adapt by some of the administrators and teachers. They think they can play by the same rules that were imposed on them and it doesn't work like that. This Giles wants to be an authoritarian and demand respect and that's not going to happen. Instead of expecting the kids to uniformly adapt to and jump at his every command, he's got to play the system as it's set up and for something like a school clothing violation, all he has to do is enforce the written policy. Give them the option of conforming or send them home. Don't argue, fight or fuss, simply tell them it's like this or bye and let their parents handle the problem.
When the parents start crying, simply pull the policy out, show them how the student was in conformance and move on. Don't argue with them either. Tell them if they have a problem, take it to the school board. Unfortunately, there's no discipline any longer in the school system so just pass the buck along, teach the kids that want to be there and get rid of the rest. Harsh but simple.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Stephanie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:57 pm
I think we live in a time when challenging "authority" is particularly important. Stupid rules are meant to be broken.
According to news reports, the student who argued over the stupid flip flops wasn't a behavior problem. She was sticking up for herself. As foolish as what she did was, imho the administrator's conduct was even more foolish because I expect adults to choose their battles. This administrator was more interesting in being "right" and being obeyed than in what was best for that individual student and for the student body. This is evident by the decision to suspend a good student for 3 days because she had the unmitigated gall to challenge his authority.
The kid behaved like a twit. The administrator behaved like an older, bigger twit with authority.
According to news reports, the student who argued over the stupid flip flops wasn't a behavior problem. She was sticking up for herself. As foolish as what she did was, imho the administrator's conduct was even more foolish because I expect adults to choose their battles. This administrator was more interesting in being "right" and being obeyed than in what was best for that individual student and for the student body. This is evident by the decision to suspend a good student for 3 days because she had the unmitigated gall to challenge his authority.
The kid behaved like a twit. The administrator behaved like an older, bigger twit with authority.
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by SamCogar on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:19 pm
Stephanie wrote:The kid behaved like a twit. The administrator behaved like an older, bigger twit with authority.
And Steph, therein lies the "heart of the problem".
Most administrators and many teachers ...... have lost all respect of/from the students.
And just like Garrison was removed at WVU ...... so should said school personnel.
The Principal at the BCMS was promoted up from a teaching position ....... and the "word is" among all the students is ........ "all he does is walk around picking up scraps of paper off the floor".
.
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Aaron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:19 pm
So adminstration should pick and choose which rules to enforce? And what standards are used to do this picking and choosing?
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Stephanie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:38 pm
Aaron,
You're in some type of position of authority where you work, correct?
You're in some type of position of authority where you work, correct?
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Aaron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:17 pm
Yes, I have a position of authority or so I've been told.
And I have a nice big book of rules and I enforce them as they're written down across the board because as soon as I cut one guy slack then everyone expects the same slack. And the first time I let a 'stupid' rule go and someone gets hurt, I've just exposed myself personally and the company I work for to who knows what kind of legal recourse.
Same thing with the stupid flip flop rule. Suppose Giles let it go and then one day, a year from now, a student trips coming down the stairs and is seriously hurt or killed. Now suppose it's determined that the cause of the accident was the flip flops. First thing the county lawyers says is "it's the kids fault, he/she had on flip flops which are against county rule 125 (b) of the student code" thus the parents have no legal recourse.
But if the kid had been wearing them for a year and other kids had been wearing them then and it is determined the principal knowingly did not enforce a ‘stupid rule’, he has just opened himself and the county up to a whole case of misery and legal responsibilities all because he didn't enforce a 'stupid' rule.
I stand by what I said.
And I have a nice big book of rules and I enforce them as they're written down across the board because as soon as I cut one guy slack then everyone expects the same slack. And the first time I let a 'stupid' rule go and someone gets hurt, I've just exposed myself personally and the company I work for to who knows what kind of legal recourse.
Same thing with the stupid flip flop rule. Suppose Giles let it go and then one day, a year from now, a student trips coming down the stairs and is seriously hurt or killed. Now suppose it's determined that the cause of the accident was the flip flops. First thing the county lawyers says is "it's the kids fault, he/she had on flip flops which are against county rule 125 (b) of the student code" thus the parents have no legal recourse.
But if the kid had been wearing them for a year and other kids had been wearing them then and it is determined the principal knowingly did not enforce a ‘stupid rule’, he has just opened himself and the county up to a whole case of misery and legal responsibilities all because he didn't enforce a 'stupid' rule.
I stand by what I said.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Stephanie on Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:33 pm
Well then you don't seem to have a clear understanding of the situation. The school board repealed the flip flop rule. Apparently, there was confusion as to when the new rule went into effect, even among school board members.
Good administrators and good managers in every industry use discretion. Every situation is different.
This flip flop rule is stupid. It highlights something I consider to be a serious problem in high schools across the nation. Part of the job of high schools is to prepare students for life outside of the arena we call public education. How can we expect students to be prepared for what comes next when we micromanage every aspect of their school experience? The graduation requirements keep increasing, meaning students have less opportunity to select their own courses. They are told when to eat and now what they can eat. They are told when they can go to the bathroom and now what kind of attire they can and cannot wear on every part of their bodies.
This administrator is a twit.
Good administrators and good managers in every industry use discretion. Every situation is different.
This flip flop rule is stupid. It highlights something I consider to be a serious problem in high schools across the nation. Part of the job of high schools is to prepare students for life outside of the arena we call public education. How can we expect students to be prepared for what comes next when we micromanage every aspect of their school experience? The graduation requirements keep increasing, meaning students have less opportunity to select their own courses. They are told when to eat and now what they can eat. They are told when they can go to the bathroom and now what kind of attire they can and cannot wear on every part of their bodies.
This administrator is a twit.
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Today's students are encouraged to defy authority
by Aaron on Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:13 pm
It doesn't matter if it was repealed by the county or not. It's in the Capital High School student hand book...
And it clearly states on page 22 in section 36.05 why students can't wear flip flops.
It also states again in the guidelines.
The principal was well within his right as the disciplinary policy calls for detention, ISS or parents pending (suspension) for minor disciplinary violations, which a dress code violation is.
You can read it all right here if you like.
And you're right. Good managers use discretion. In this instance, the administrator might have used his discretion by giving the student detention or ISS instead of suspending the student.
What they don't do though is try and pick out which part of their written policies are stupid and shouldn't be followed though. Written polices are there for a reason and not following them isn't part of being a good administrator or a good manager. It's what makes them bad administrators and managers and get's them fired.
1 Student Handbook
2007-2008
Capital High School
1500 Greenbrier Street
Charleston, WV 25311
(304) 348-6500
FAX: (304) 348-6509
www.capitalhigh.org
Clinton Giles, Principal
Bill McCoy, Assistant Principal
Dr. Kate Porter, Curriculum Assistant Principal
John Hawley, Assistant Principal
This School Agenda belongs to
Name_____________________________________________________Address___________________________________________________
City/State__________________________________Zip________
Student #________________________________________HR_______
Faculty Adviser______________________________________________
This Agenda has been created especially for students of Capital High School. At the beginning of the school year, each student receives an Agenda book and ID card for a fee of $5.00, for the purpose of teaching organization; improving academic performance; and promoting student-teacher-parent communication.
And it clearly states on page 22 in section 36.05 why students can't wear flip flops.
36.05 Accessories:
All students must wear shoes. Flip flops are considered unsafe and, therefore, are not allowed. Flip flops are defined as any flat soled shoe with a toe bar and strap connected to that bar.
It also states again in the guidelines.
Guidelines for Appropriate Dress at Capital High School
Students should select wearing apparel and attempt to affect an appearance suitable for the environment of Capital High School with the following tenets in mind.
12. All students must wear footwear at all times, bedroom slippers and thongs (flip flops) are prohibited.
The principal was well within his right as the disciplinary policy calls for detention, ISS or parents pending (suspension) for minor disciplinary violations, which a dress code violation is.
You can read it all right here if you like.
And you're right. Good managers use discretion. In this instance, the administrator might have used his discretion by giving the student detention or ISS instead of suspending the student.
What they don't do though is try and pick out which part of their written policies are stupid and shouldn't be followed though. Written polices are there for a reason and not following them isn't part of being a good administrator or a good manager. It's what makes them bad administrators and managers and get's them fired.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
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