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Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by SamCogar on Thu May 22, 2008 6:44 am
Merit pay raises performance
Across-the-board pay raises do not encourage greater efforts
IN 2001, the state mandated that colleges and universities impose merit pay increases for their faculties. The controversy continued at a legislative interim committee meeting this week.
Bob Morgenstern of the West Virginia unit of the American Federation of Teachers told legislators it would never work.
He reiterated his union's opposition to singling out and rewarding people who do exceptional work.
"An across-the-board format avoids the methodological difficulties of constructing an acceptable individual merit pay system, it reduces interpersonal and interdisciplinary rivalry, it rewards work that is for the good of the college-university as a whole, and it creates a system that minimizes faculty-administrator opposition," he said. "In effect, it gets us all to pull in the same direction."
………………
Likewise, doctors who specialize make more money than others. Family practitioners generally make less than heart surgeons.
But Morgenstern denied that money is much of a motivator in education.
"AFT-WV does not support merit pay for faculty or classified staff," Morgenstern said. "Merit pay is neither a reward or an incentive to those in higher education."
Fortunately, West Virginia has citizen-legislators who are well versed in common sense.
"In this real world, and I think that's where higher education needs to go, there is pay for performance," said Delegate Eustace Frederick, D-Mercer. "It's not bad if you judge it properly."
People in the academic world expect a certain amount of insulation from the "real world." Universities are supposed to have ivory towers - the higher the better.
But professors also must pay their bills. The AFT-WV is on thin ice when it opposes giving greater financial rewards to those who earn them.
http://www.dailymail.com/Opinion/Editorials/200805210162
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by Aaron on Thu May 22, 2008 7:56 am
Fortunately, West Virginia has citizen-legislators who are well versed in common sense.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by Stephanie on Thu May 22, 2008 8:32 am
That line is pretty darn funny!
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by TerryRC on Sat May 24, 2008 4:06 am
He reiterated his union's opposition to singling out and rewarding people who do exceptional work.
Isn't that the employer's business? If the employer shorts an employee, that is the union's bailiwick. I fail to see how giving beyond that has anything to do with them.
Sure, they (the union) might not like it because they don't want any other entity, especially the company (or in this case, the state or their respective schools), to have the loyalty of the workers, but legally they have no grounds to oppose it.
Isn't that the employer's business? If the employer shorts an employee, that is the union's bailiwick. I fail to see how giving beyond that has anything to do with them.
Sure, they (the union) might not like it because they don't want any other entity, especially the company (or in this case, the state or their respective schools), to have the loyalty of the workers, but legally they have no grounds to oppose it.
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
-Sir John Harrington
-Sir John Harrington
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by Stephanie on Sat May 24, 2008 4:51 am
If the employer gives something to one, the union demands it for all. They take the case to court and claim the district created a precedent for giving X or doing Y when they gave whatever to employee Z so they must provide this to everyone.
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by TerryRC on Sat May 24, 2008 5:05 am
If the employer gives something to one, the union demands it for all. They take the case to court and claim the district created a precedent for giving X or doing Y when they gave whatever to employee Z so they must provide this to everyone.
If the employer bases the bonus on production, I fail to see how they would have a case.
If the employer bases the bonus on production, I fail to see how they would have a case.
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
-Sir John Harrington
-Sir John Harrington
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by Stephanie on Sat May 24, 2008 5:34 am
TerryRC wrote:If the employer gives something to one, the union demands it for all. They take the case to court and claim the district created a precedent for giving X or doing Y when they gave whatever to employee Z so they must provide this to everyone.
If the employer bases the bonus on production, I fail to see how they would have a case.
It really doesn't matter what you fail to see, Terry. I don't mean that to sound disrespectful, it's just honest. School districts sign contracts with teachers unions. Those contracts detail things like benefits and compensation. If it isn't in the contract, the teachers aren't getting it. When districts try to implement merit based pay or performance bonuses, the union balks. It's a deal breaker for them. They simply will not sign the contract.
Look, in some areas, I cannot and will not say it is the case in WV, but in some locations, the starting salaries for new teachers is deplorable. We're talking districts simply cannot find new teachers because the starting pay is so low. During contract negotiations, school districts will try to address this issue. They'll offer larger increases at the lower steps and more modest increases for more senior teachers. What happens? The unions demand, if there is money for salary increases they want the money to go to those at the top of the ladder. Why? There are a couple of reasons, including the fact that those union members at the bargaining table are always at or near the top step. Unions always sacrifice their young in negotiations It is what they do. They will not allow things like sign on bonuses for highly qualified teachers and they will not sign a contract that includes any kind of incentive pay based upon performance.
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by Aaron on Sat May 24, 2008 6:27 am
The first thing the state needs to do is get rid of the way we pay teachers. There is no reason in the world a gym teacher should get paid the same money a science teacher does simply because the two have the same education/time of service.
Pay should be based on the subject taught first and foremost.
Pay should be based on the subject taught first and foremost.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by Stephanie on Sat May 24, 2008 7:00 am
Aaron wrote:The first thing the state needs to do is get rid of the way we pay teachers. There is no reason in the world a gym teacher should get paid the same money a science teacher does simply because the two have the same education/time of service.
Pay should be based on the subject taught first and foremost.
Aaron,
I disagree. While I agree what they teach is important, and should be a factor, that should be the top consideration. Job performance needs to be considered too. Should the PE teacher at the top step be making more than the AP Lit teacher only at the midway point? I don't think so. However, that gym teacher who is motivating students to be physically fit and educating them on just how to do that shouldn't make less money than the biology teacher who is ineffective, incompetent, or just plain unkind.
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by Aaron on Sat May 24, 2008 7:19 am
The second thing that must be done is elimination of teacher tenure laws to get rid of the woefully under qualified biology teacher, as well as every other underperforming or burned out teacher.
There has to be a base line spomewhere. I do not believe that baseline should have home ec, gym teachers or keyboarding teachers making the same money as a math, english or science teacher.
In fact, some of the subjects shouldn't even be taught. If the garbage was eliminated, maybe we could pay the qualified teachers to teach.
There has to be a base line spomewhere. I do not believe that baseline should have home ec, gym teachers or keyboarding teachers making the same money as a math, english or science teacher.
In fact, some of the subjects shouldn't even be taught. If the garbage was eliminated, maybe we could pay the qualified teachers to teach.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by Stephanie on Sat May 24, 2008 7:28 am
Elimination of teacher tenure laws is the second thing that must be done, restructering compensation is the third. Elimination of compulsory attendance should be the first!!!!
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by Aaron on Sat May 24, 2008 8:37 am
So we don't agree on the order of how things should be done. Just that changes should be made and what some of those changes are.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
JFK-1960
JFK-1960
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by SamCogar on Sat May 24, 2008 12:30 pm
Stephanie wrote: School districts sign contracts with teachers unions. Those contracts detail things like benefits and compensation. If it isn't in the contract, the teachers aren't getting it. When districts try to implement merit based pay or performance bonuses, the union balks. It's a deal breaker for them. They simply will not sign the contract.
Steph, maybe in some states or school Districts ......... but I don't think so in WV. The Legislature determines all base/minimum benefits and compensation.
And Teacher contracts are between the Teacher and the County BOE.
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by Stephanie on Sat May 24, 2008 1:00 pm
Steph, maybe in some states or school Districts ......... but I don't think so in WV. The Legislature determines all base/minimum benefits and compensation.
And Teacher contracts are between the Teacher and the County BOE.
It is the screwiest system I've ever heard of, but it really doesn't change all that much.
The Legislature has created and maintains the tenure laws, sets the steps and the pay associated with the steps. Now if Putnam County School District suddenly decided they wanted to add some sort of incentive bonus or additional funds to the lower steps, the teachers in PCSD would bitch, piss, moan and eventually they would in all likelyhood strike.
The problems here in WV are worse than in RI because there is a tiny amount of control at the local level. In RI local control is a small amount, better than teeny tiny.
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Teacher's Union doesn't support better teachers
by shermangeneral on Sat May 24, 2008 2:42 pm
Well Aaron at least you have an idea about how you would pay teachers. If I understand your proposal, you would have a different pay grade based on subject taught.
But wouldn't everyone just apply to teach Science instead of English if Science paid more?
What about grade school where the same teacher teaches both?
Would they be paid one rate from 9-10 when they teach English and a different rate from 10-11 when they teach math?
Actually even in high school it is not unusual for the same teacher to teach different subjects.
And everyone else besides Aaron says pay on some undefined system of "merit".
But they dont define what constitutes "merit".
So who gets to decide?
Sounds like the old political system we had years ago before the wvea got involved and active in politics.
But wouldn't everyone just apply to teach Science instead of English if Science paid more?
What about grade school where the same teacher teaches both?
Would they be paid one rate from 9-10 when they teach English and a different rate from 10-11 when they teach math?
Actually even in high school it is not unusual for the same teacher to teach different subjects.
And everyone else besides Aaron says pay on some undefined system of "merit".
But they dont define what constitutes "merit".
So who gets to decide?
Sounds like the old political system we had years ago before the wvea got involved and active in politics.
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