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The Sorry State of Education
by Cato on Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:23 am
I saw the thread on teacher hiring so I thought I'd throw out a few throughts on what I think is wrong with education. Especially since I have a wife and daughter teaching.
First, it may come as a surpirze to many that I agree, getting rid of poor teachers is nearly impossible. Two of my kids a a math teacher that was a complete idiotI can't explain how she held her job as long as she has, but she did and alot of kids have suffered for it. I also am aware of an english teacher whose first year proved a disaster, yet because of connections she retained her job again kids suffered. The same is true of a guidence counciler we had. The man was patheitic, yet he continued to hold his job even after it was proven he wasno good.
Do I fault the teachers unions for that. Yea, to some degree, but I really fault administration that is unwilling to do what they are responsibile for. Despite what amny may want to believe, you can fire a teacher. It takes work and documentation, but it can be done, it the adminsitration truly wants to do it. Problem is most don't.
Secondly, we have politicans the cowtow to the teachers unions at the expense of education. I guess votes are far more important that quality teachers. Which leads us to no. three, politicans lack the courage to stand for what they have done, so they blanketly blame teachers for the failings of the legislature. Yea, some teachers certainly have blame coming to them, but many are good and hard working and do not deserve the labeling they get from the politicians.
Fourth, not only don't adminsitrators and a number of teacher not care, most parents don't either. For many school is little more than a babysitter that gets Johnny out of the house. Many prents don't give a damn if the kid does well or not or behaves or not, so long as the kid is out of sight.
Fifth and worst of all discipline has been taken out fo the classroom. Kid no longer face the consequences of their behavior and that is sad.
If you truly want to cure education, the very best thing is to get it out of the hands of government and politicians. That ends all the BS froim both sides of the isle and thus we get on with actually educating our kids.
First, it may come as a surpirze to many that I agree, getting rid of poor teachers is nearly impossible. Two of my kids a a math teacher that was a complete idiotI can't explain how she held her job as long as she has, but she did and alot of kids have suffered for it. I also am aware of an english teacher whose first year proved a disaster, yet because of connections she retained her job again kids suffered. The same is true of a guidence counciler we had. The man was patheitic, yet he continued to hold his job even after it was proven he wasno good.
Do I fault the teachers unions for that. Yea, to some degree, but I really fault administration that is unwilling to do what they are responsibile for. Despite what amny may want to believe, you can fire a teacher. It takes work and documentation, but it can be done, it the adminsitration truly wants to do it. Problem is most don't.
Secondly, we have politicans the cowtow to the teachers unions at the expense of education. I guess votes are far more important that quality teachers. Which leads us to no. three, politicans lack the courage to stand for what they have done, so they blanketly blame teachers for the failings of the legislature. Yea, some teachers certainly have blame coming to them, but many are good and hard working and do not deserve the labeling they get from the politicians.
Fourth, not only don't adminsitrators and a number of teacher not care, most parents don't either. For many school is little more than a babysitter that gets Johnny out of the house. Many prents don't give a damn if the kid does well or not or behaves or not, so long as the kid is out of sight.
Fifth and worst of all discipline has been taken out fo the classroom. Kid no longer face the consequences of their behavior and that is sad.
If you truly want to cure education, the very best thing is to get it out of the hands of government and politicians. That ends all the BS froim both sides of the isle and thus we get on with actually educating our kids.
_________________
[b]The only difference between Republicans and Democrats is who they allow to feed at the trough first.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Q. Adams
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
Frederic Bastic
/b]
Cato- Number of posts: 969
Age: 56
Location: Hardy County
Registration date: 2007-12-28 
Re: The Sorry State of Education
by Aaron on Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:58 am
Well, education is not going to be privatized so probably the best place to start is in how we hire administrators. You blame the administration for not having the guts to stand up to teachers and get rid of bad ones and my question is, why would they as administrators are former teachers who have met certain guidelines, which allows them to apply for administration jobs.
If you really want to fix education, ban teachers or anyone who has ever served or been affiliated with the teachers unions from becoming administrators and hire leaders to manage our million dollar schools. I would suggest career military people to start with but I certainly wouldn't limit myself to them.
I think many would be shocked to find the number of career business men and women who would jump at the chance to manage a school later in life, especially if they've done very well in the business sector and are looking to give something back.
If you really want to fix education, ban teachers or anyone who has ever served or been affiliated with the teachers unions from becoming administrators and hire leaders to manage our million dollar schools. I would suggest career military people to start with but I certainly wouldn't limit myself to them.
I think many would be shocked to find the number of career business men and women who would jump at the chance to manage a school later in life, especially if they've done very well in the business sector and are looking to give something back.
_________________
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Thomas Jefferson
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
Cicero, 55 BC
Aaron- Number of posts: 7544
Age: 44
Location: Poca, WV
Registration date: 2007-12-28 -
Re: The Sorry State of Education
by Cato on Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:37 pm
Aaron wrote:Well, education is not going to be privatized so probably the best place to start is in how we hire administrators. You blame the administration for not having the guts to stand up to teachers and get rid of bad ones and my question is, why would they as administrators are former teachers who have met certain guidelines, which allows them to apply for administration jobs.
If you really want to fix education, ban teachers or anyone who has ever served or been affiliated with the teachers unions from becoming administrators and hire leaders to manage our million dollar schools. I would suggest career military people to start with but I certainly wouldn't limit myself to them.
I think many would be shocked to find the number of career business men and women who would jump at the chance to manage a school later in life, especially if they've done very well in the business sector and are looking to give something back.
I may be misuderstanding your statement regarding adminsitrators. Could you explain what you trying to say, please?
Speaking for myself, I won't want to manage a school, but I owuld like to teach. That is, provided that is what I was allowed to do. As far as admisnitrators goes, I agree that many times a career military preferably an officer would be a good thing.
_________________
[b]The only difference between Republicans and Democrats is who they allow to feed at the trough first.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Q. Adams
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
Frederic Bastic
/b]
Cato- Number of posts: 969
Age: 56
Location: Hardy County
Registration date: 2007-12-28 -
Re: The Sorry State of Education
by Aaron on Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:24 pm
I'm saying that 99 times out of a hundred a former teacher will not make the hard choice against a fellow teacher in spite of what is best for the students or the school. If you eliminate teachers from adminstrative positions, you do away with that choice.
_________________
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Thomas Jefferson
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
Cicero, 55 BC
Aaron- Number of posts: 7544
Age: 44
Location: Poca, WV
Registration date: 2007-12-28 -
Re: The Sorry State of Education
by Cato on Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:50 pm
Aaron wrote:I'm saying that 99 times out of a hundred a former teacher will not make the hard choice against a fellow teacher in spite of what is best for the students or the school. If you eliminate teachers from adminstrative positions, you do away with that choice.
I don't know if I agree completely, but I will admit that there is definately a tendency to do as you stated, so maybe that isn't all that bad an idea.
I know that in my dealings with the eduation system, I have had to wonder who was actually the one in charge. That is why I blame the administration, all the way up to the legislature. They have concoked one rule after the next and anymore you have to wonder who is accoutible. Sometimes it the principle, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes its the superintendent sometimes its the state. Many times you can't get a straight answer as to who is accountible. Until this is dealt with education is going to imporve very much.
_________________
[b]The only difference between Republicans and Democrats is who they allow to feed at the trough first.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Q. Adams
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."
Frederic Bastic
/b]
Cato- Number of posts: 969
Age: 56
Location: Hardy County
Registration date: 2007-12-28 -
Re: The Sorry State of Education
by Aaron on Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:48 pm
It always starts at the front line and that's the principal and I've yet to meet one that puts teachers below the needs of their school or the students.
_________________
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Thomas Jefferson
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
Cicero, 55 BC
Aaron- Number of posts: 7544
Age: 44
Location: Poca, WV
Registration date: 2007-12-28 -
Re: The Sorry State of Education
by ziggy on Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:11 pm
Why would we think that "career military people" or "career business men and women" would be any better at managing schools than career educators would be at managing military units or business enterprises?
_________________
"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East."- John Sheehan, Jesuit priest
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Re: The Sorry State of Education
by Aaron on Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:06 am
Who said anything about career educators managing the military. The last time I looked, the military was doing just fine.
The topic of this thread is the pathetic shape of our educational system.
The topic of this thread is the pathetic shape of our educational system.
_________________
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Thomas Jefferson
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
Cicero, 55 BC
Aaron- Number of posts: 7544
Age: 44
Location: Poca, WV
Registration date: 2007-12-28 -
Re: The Sorry State of Education
by ziggy on Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:05 am
Aaron wrote:Who said anything about career educators managing the military?
I did.
The last time I looked, the military was doing just fine.
If the military is doing "just fine", then why are suicides among American soldiers at record high levels?
The topic of this thread is the pathetic shape of our educational system.
We knew you would find some excuse to not answer.
_________________
"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East."- John Sheehan, Jesuit priest
ziggy- Moderator
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Re: The Sorry State of Education
by Aaron on Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:39 am
I would have thought those mice in your pocket would have eaten a hole by now.
If you have a question relevant to the thread, ask it.
If you want to discuss the military, start another thread.
If you have a question relevant to the thread, ask it.
If you want to discuss the military, start another thread.
_________________
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Thomas Jefferson
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
Cicero, 55 BC
Aaron- Number of posts: 7544
Age: 44
Location: Poca, WV
Registration date: 2007-12-28 -
Re: The Sorry State of Education
by ziggy on Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:42 am
U.S. defense officials say suicides among U.S. Army troops soared again last year, reaching the highest level since the Army began tracking suicides in 1980.
Officials say at least 128 soldiers killed themselves in 2008 - up from 115 in 2007. The final count is likely to be even higher as 15 other possible suicides are under investigation.
As it stands now, the suicide rate calculates to about 20 soldiers out of every 100,000.
The Army is launching a new effort to study the problem and determine why soldier suicides continue to rise. Authorities have said troops are under tremendous, unprecedented stress because of repeated and long tours of duty in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The U.S. Marines also reported a jump in suicides, from 33 in 2007 to 41 in 2008.
Last year, an army official said most soldier suicides do not happen in war zones.
A 2007 study found the most common triggers included failed personal relationships, legal and financial problems and the stress of the job.
Concerns have mounted over problems with the U.S. military health care system, which has been overwhelmed by large numbers of troops suffering from post-traumatic stress, depression and other mental health issues, as well as physical injuries.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-01-29-voa49.cfm
At the same time, the number of attempted suicides or self-inflicted injuries in the Army has jumped sixfold since the Iraq war began. Last year, about 2,100 soldiers injured themselves or attempted suicide, compared with about 350 in 2002, according to the U.S. Army Medical Command Suicide Prevention Action Plan.
http://www.infowars.com/soldier-suicides-at-record-level/
_________________
"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East."- John Sheehan, Jesuit priest
ziggy- Moderator
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Re: The Sorry State of Education
by ziggy on Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:43 am
Aaron wrote:I would have thought those mice in your pocket would have eaten a hole by now.
If you have a question relevant to the thread, ask it.
If you want to discuss the military, start another thread.
You are the one who brought military into this thread.
Running away from your own words again, eh?
_________________
"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East."- John Sheehan, Jesuit priest
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts: 4301
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Re: The Sorry State of Education
by ziggy on Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:49 am
Maybe if Aaron had his military management way, all those teachers who ever belonged to a teachers union would committ suicide in record numbers like so many of those soldiers under his Iraq War era "just fine" military management do.
_________________
"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East."- John Sheehan, Jesuit priest
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts: 4301
Location: Jackson County, WV
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Re: The Sorry State of Education
by Aaron on Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:54 am
Not at all. I'm just not interested in discussing your absurb notion of having teachers running the military. I think it's about as stupid a thing as I've heard in sometime.
_________________
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."
Thomas Jefferson
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
Cicero, 55 BC
Aaron- Number of posts: 7544
Age: 44
Location: Poca, WV
Registration date: 2007-12-28 -
Re: The Sorry State of Education
by ziggy on Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:57 am
Aaron wrote:Not at all. I'm just not interested in discussing your absurb notion of having teachers running the military. I think it's about as stupid a thing as I've heard in sometime.
It is no more "stupid" than your notion of having "career military" people running the public schools.
_________________
"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East."- John Sheehan, Jesuit priest
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts: 4301
Location: Jackson County, WV
Registration date: 2007-12-28 -
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