Re: Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away

**ziggy** · by **ziggy** on Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:39 pm

He did not say that you win by being the mightiest. He said that you win by being superior in organizing the violent might you do have. As a student of the military, do you disagree with that?

You can't win with might, you have to win the hearts and minds of the people or the fighting doesn't stop.

Oh. So we've won the hearts and minds of the people around the world? Some one needs to tell 'em that so they will stop hating us.

Aaron · by Aaron on Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:42 pm

Yes, I disagree but lets back up here for a minute.

When and where did the west win the world?

**ziggy** · by **ziggy** on Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:44 pm

Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."- Samuel P. Huntington

Well isn't that just special. I haven't a clue who Sammy Huntington is, but it appears he's just one more of the blame the US for every ill the world has known, gang. Simply he's appears to be a jerk and idiot.

OK. So is this commentator, too, a jerk and an idiot?

A world without U.S. primacy will be a world with more violence and disorder and less democracy and economic growth than a world where the United States continues to have more influence than any other country in shaping global affairs. The sustained international primacy of the United States is central to the welfare and security of Americans and to the future of freedom, democracy, open economies, and international order in the world.

**ziggy** · by **ziggy** on Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:52 pm

Aaron wrote:Yes, I disagree but lets back up here for a minute.

When and where did the west win the world?

I'm not sure that we have won the world.

But I agree with Huntington that most of whatever we have "won" around the world has been by being superior at organizing our violent might rather than by our "values or religion". Breaking the ability of a peoples to fight back is not the same as winning their minds and hearts.

Aaron · by Aaron on Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:56 pm

Who said anything about religion?

And I disagree. We realized it in SE Asia, the Soviets found it out in Afghanistan and countless other occupying nations have found it out all over the world.

**ziggy** · by **ziggy** on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:05 pm

Who said anything about religion?

Huntington did- in the quote that we were talking about.

**ziggy** · by **ziggy** on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:07 pm

And I disagree. We realized it in SE Asia, the Soviets found it out in Afghanistan and countless other occupying nations have found it out all over the world.

So when did any nation win over its foes by winning their hearts and minds?

Aaron · by Aaron on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:15 pm

ziggy wrote:
And I disagree. We realized it in SE Asia, the Soviets found it out in Afghanistan and countless other occupying nations have found it out all over the world.

So when did any nation win over its foes by winning their hearts and minds?

Germany after WW2.

When did a nation win over its foes by might?

**ziggy** · by **ziggy** on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:25 pm

When did a nation win over its foes by might?

Japan, WW 2.

Aaron · by Aaron on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:29 pm

Wrong.

Japan accepted our "values" as they are now a democratically controlled, capitalistic nation and one of the United States strongest allies. Had they not, we wouldn't still have troops there.

Try again.

**ziggy** · by **ziggy** on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:43 pm

We have troops all over the world. Is that because we have won the hearts and minds of all those people?

Aaron · by Aaron on Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:02 pm

Other then a combat zone or limited military such as at an embassy, where do we have troops stationed that do not share our values or who are not our allies?

**ziggy** · by **ziggy** on Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:16 pm

We have troops all over the world. Is that because we have won the hearts and minds of all those people?

Aaron · by Aaron on Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:28 pm

We are currently in ~150 nations and save Afghanistan, we are there at the will and desire of the host nation. So tell me, where do we have troops stationed as a result of might?

**ziggy** · by **ziggy** on Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:59 am

In most of those ~150 nations.