Obamacons (REAL Libertarians vote Obama!)

But Sherm, social security IS NOT an income re-distribution program. Once again, you are wrong. Individuals, including those on this board, pay a portion of their income (currently 12.5% of each individuals pay) into his social security retirement fund and as a result, are entitled to every penny they receive. There is nothing free about it.

You are sadly mistaken my friend.

Aaron wrote:But Sherm, social security IS NOT an income re-distribution program. Once again, you are wrong. Individuals, including those on this board, pay a portion of their income (currently 12.5% of each individuals pay) into his social security retirement fund and as a result, are entitled to every penny they receive. There is nothing free about it.

You are sadly mistaken my friend.

Shermmy is justa trying to keep the "SPOTLIGHT" off of his SP Retirement which ABSOLUTELY is an "income re-distribution program".



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Aaron wrote:But Sherm, social security IS NOT an income re-distribution program. Once again, you are wrong. Individuals, including those on this board, pay a portion of their income (currently 12.5% of each individuals pay) into his social security retirement fund and as a result, are entitled to every penny they receive. There is nothing free about it.

You are sadly mistaken my friend.

I don't think you are correct here. Social Security was designed so that the money workers put in today pay retirees today. Not a pure "pay-go" program because the surplus is "saved" in trust funds. Many people have benefited who put in next to nothing, while some have put in their whole lives and never received a cent.

If it were otherwise, why would the GOP consistently push for individual accounts?

I didn't say anything about 'pay go'. I said those receiving Social Security retirement benefits, which is what Sherm was talking about; receive those benefits because they paid into the SS trust fund. That's how it works. What an individual receives upon retirement is based directly on what they pay into Social Security.

No one benefited from Social Security retirement that never contributed and the only way someone paid their entire life into Social Security and did not benefit is if they did not apply for the benefits in which there were entitled (not likely) or if they died before becoming eligible.

One thing is certain, Social Security retirement (which is what we were discussing) is certainly not an 'income re-distribution' plan as Sherman implied.

Yes. Many people do die before reaping what they paid into.

Also, you could retire and live 40 more years. Or you could die in 1. How do they calculate what you get? It's an estimate. Many people do not get what they paid into, and some get more than they paid.

Where did the first recipients of SS checks get their money?

It is a social contract that says we pay for the elderly, disabled and survivors today. When we enter those conditions, the crop of workers at that time will pay for us.

That's the way it goes. It is redistribution; it is not your personal account.

FYI:

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10024.html

The current Social Security system works like this: when you work, you pay taxes into Social Security. The tax money is used to pay benefits to:

* People who already have retired;
* People who are disabled;
* Survivors of workers who have died; and
* Dependents of beneficiaries.

The money you pay in taxes is not held in a personal account for you to use when you get benefits. Your taxes are being used right now to pay people who now are getting benefits. Any unused money goes to the Social Security trust funds, not a personal account with your name on it.

Emphasis mine.

It doesn't matter if you live 40 or 1, the benefits remain the same. They are determined by earnings history, retirement date, birthdate, marital status, inflation and politics. The only thing that changes them is COLA increases.

And I believe you are confusing Social Security Retirement, which is what the SS act of 1935 was originally about with every other socialist program that has come down the pike since Congress started 'amending' SS in 1939.

Perhaps if you did just a little research and reading, you might have a better understanding of what SS is and how it works.

I know it's Wiki but I think this would be a good place to start.

SFCraig wrote:Emphasis mine.

If we were discussing every socialist program that comes down the pike, you might be right.

As I'm talking about social security retirmenet, you're not. Benefits are determined by earnings history, retirement date, birthdate, marital status, inflation and politics.

Nice try scooter.

Not sure I know what your point is. Since the money is taken from one worker and given to another it can only be described as income re-distribution. I like that. You probably don't.

Refute this: How is taking money from a worker today and giving it to a retiree TODAY anything other than redistribution?

The SS check you get is based on earnings, yes. That means the size of the check you get from someone else's paycheck(s) is larger or smaller accordingly.

You could have put only a small amount into SS and get considerably more.

The info I gave is a direct quote from the SS website.


From the Wiki link you gave:

"The Act provided benefits to retirees and the unemployed, and a lump-sum benefit at death. Payments to current retirees were (and continue to be) financed by a payroll tax on current workers' wages.."
Please explain how you think it is not redistribution.

SFCraig wrote:You could have put only a small amount into SS and get considerably more.

The info I gave is a direct quote from the SS website.

No, you can't, not on social security retirement. You pay into the fund for a mininum of quarters and that, coupled with your age at retirement and a few other things set the amount of your benefits. If you don't put YOUR funds into the SS account, you're not elegible for distribution of any funds, yours or otherwise.

You're confusing social security retirement with every other program that falls under the Social Security act. They are not the same thing, no matter how many times you say it.

SFCraig wrote:
Social Security was designed so that the money workers put in today pay retirees today. WRONG Not a pure "pay-go" program because the surplus is "saved" in trust funds. WRONG Many people have benefited who put in next to nothing, while some have put in their whole lives and never received a cent. TRUE

If it were otherwise, why would the GOP consistently push for individual accounts? Because there is no money in the Trust Fund …. and soon there will be more people collecting more SS than is paying enough into SS …… and future retirees will be paying more and getting way less out when they retire.

Aaron wrote: I said those receiving Social Security retirement benefits, receive those benefits because they paid into the SS trust fund. WRONG, not all. That's how it works. What an individual receives upon retirement is based directly on what they pay into Social Security. What they pay in during the last ‘X # of’ Quarters they work.

No one benefited from Social Security retirement that never contributed WRONG

One thing is certain, Social Security retirement (which is what we were discussing) is certainly not an 'income re-distribution' plan as Sherman implied. For many, many, many it now is. Especially SSD which becomes SS payments at retirement age.

SFCraig wrote: Also, you could retire and live 40 more years. Or you could die in 1. How do they calculate what you get? It's an estimate. WRONG, it is based on the last X# Quarters you work. Many people do not get what they paid into, and some get more than they paid.RIGHT

SFCraig wrote:
The money you pay in taxes is not held in a personal account for you to use when you get benefits. TRUE Your taxes are being used right now to pay people who now are getting benefits. TRUE, because they done spent what you put in. Any unused money goes to the Social Security trust funds, WRONG, they spend it on Pork Barrel projects not a personal account with your name on it.

Aaron wrote:It doesn't matter if you live 40 or 1, the benefits remain the same. They are determined by earnings history, TRUE, but only the history of the last X# of Quarters that you work. retirement date, birthdate, marital status, inflation and politics. ALL WRONG The only thing that changes them is COLA increases. and Medicare increases

You're making the same mistake Craig is Sam and confusing SSI disability and other socialist programs with Social Security Retirement.

If you don't pay a mininum of 40 quarters (10 years) into the SS trust fund (whether it's there not doesn't matter) you don't qualify for Social Security Retirement.

Check with anyone that's not contributed to Social Security, such as most firemen and see who much they're drawing. If it's anything at all, the amount will be minimal becasue even though they met the 40 quarter quota through other employment, they didn't pay enough into social security to qualify for more then a couple hundred dollars a month.

Even medicare which you listed as a social security increase isa separate program.

SFCraig wrote:FYI:

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10024.html

The current Social Security system works like this: when you work, you pay taxes into Social Security. The tax money is used to pay benefits to:

* People who already have retired;
* People who are disabled;
* Survivors of workers who have died; and
* Dependents of beneficiaries.

The money you pay in taxes is not held in a personal account for you to use when you get benefits. Your taxes are being used right now to pay people who now are getting benefits. Any unused money goes to the Social Security trust funds, not a personal account with your name on it.

Emphasis mine.

Again, this is a direct quote from the SS website. Money is taken from your check and given to another person, Explain how this is not income re-distribution.

Also, the reason the GOP wants to make it a personal account (and Democrats don't) is because it is redistribution. The GOP does not like redistribution (or safety nets) and Democrats do. If the money from workers today gets diverted into their "own" account then the money no longer goes to the retirees of today.

It really is that simple.

Sam, although your points are valid, it's not at the core of the discussion. Whether or not the pols have looted the trust fund, etc, does not impact that the principle that SS is and was from inception income redistribution. Right?

(Also, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_May_Fuller...Fuller lived her entire life in Brattleboro, Vermont and worked as a legal secretary. She retired in 1939, having paid just three years of payroll taxes. She received monthly Social Security checks until her death in 1975 at age 100. By the time of her death, Fuller had collected $22,888.92 from Social Security monthly benefits, compared to her contributions of $24.75 to the system.)

No, my money is not re-distributed to another person. I pay 12.4% of my salary every 2 weeks to FICA, which is the tax used to fund Social Security retirement. (Another 2.9% is taken out and paid to fund Medicare) My money is not directly sent to anyone other then uncle Sam. Upon retirement, IF and only IF, I meet minimum qualifications of payment into the fund, work history and age requirements, then I am eligible for retirement benefits from the fund.

I think you're problem is you are confusing survivor benefits, SSI disability, DHHR benefits and similar programs with Social Security Retirement benefits.

And I believe the reason some Americans want individual accounts is due to the rampant fraud and waste of the trillions of dollars average, hard working Americans have paid into the fund. If properly managed, the fund should have continued indefinately but there are projections of it running as early as 2020. Seems the government has wasted our money and I'm one of those that believe I could do better with my 12.4% then what the government is doing.

I think you're wrong again.

Click this link...I dare you!

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10024.html

"Your taxes are being used right now to pay people who now are getting benefits. Any unused money goes to the Social Security trust funds, not a personal account with your name on it."

Also here:

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/ssa.cfg/php/enduser/popup_adp.php?p_sid=_wVuW-8j&p_lva=&p_li=&p_faqid=215&p_created=956064531&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MzIsMzImcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9jYXRzPTAmcF9wdj0mcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PXBlcmNlbnQ*

or here:

http://tinyurl.com/5ckupm

You pay 6.2 most likely (unless self employed), and only 1.45 on your Medicare.