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Log inFranklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
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Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by SheikBen on Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:26 am
"It is true, few persons appear desirous to put such laws in execution, and it is also true that some few persons are hardy enough to venture to depart from them."--John Adams
Can it be said that few persons in Saudi Arabia/Iran/United Arab Emirates/Holland appear desirous to put sha'ria into execution?
The churches in Europe in John Adams' day hardly qualified as fundamentalist. Infant baptism is an obvious example of a difference between then and now. A few such people actually made it a habit of drowning or near-drowning baptists in a mocking of the adult baptism experience. What TerryRC finds funny actually led to the deaths of some people for their religious beliefs.
In Massachusettes, in which Congregationalism was the state church until 1833, fine and imprisonment existed in John Adams' day (as the quote suggests) even though the Congregational church itself was so liberal that it split way back then into the Unitarian and Trinitarian movements. A fundamentalist church does not have such a unitarian component that it suffers a schism based on THAT.
I get the sense that Ziggy and TerryRC have a priori defined fundamentalism as the violent and intolerant use of religion, and therefore feel the ability to make every example of religious violence fit their definition, even though it is tautalogical and scatological. If instead by fundamentalism one means the belief in the inerrancy of Scripture, the superiority and authority of Scripture over church leadership, and a personal salvation by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, and not of ourselves and our works, we will surely find that fundamentalist Christianity is innocent of the charges proferred against it. The Catholic church even today does not subscribe to the above two. It has an "infallible pope" ex cathedra. It has required sacraments for salvation, just as the Church of England did in John Adams' day.
Can it be said that few persons in Saudi Arabia/Iran/United Arab Emirates/Holland appear desirous to put sha'ria into execution?
The churches in Europe in John Adams' day hardly qualified as fundamentalist. Infant baptism is an obvious example of a difference between then and now. A few such people actually made it a habit of drowning or near-drowning baptists in a mocking of the adult baptism experience. What TerryRC finds funny actually led to the deaths of some people for their religious beliefs.
In Massachusettes, in which Congregationalism was the state church until 1833, fine and imprisonment existed in John Adams' day (as the quote suggests) even though the Congregational church itself was so liberal that it split way back then into the Unitarian and Trinitarian movements. A fundamentalist church does not have such a unitarian component that it suffers a schism based on THAT.
I get the sense that Ziggy and TerryRC have a priori defined fundamentalism as the violent and intolerant use of religion, and therefore feel the ability to make every example of religious violence fit their definition, even though it is tautalogical and scatological. If instead by fundamentalism one means the belief in the inerrancy of Scripture, the superiority and authority of Scripture over church leadership, and a personal salvation by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, and not of ourselves and our works, we will surely find that fundamentalist Christianity is innocent of the charges proferred against it. The Catholic church even today does not subscribe to the above two. It has an "infallible pope" ex cathedra. It has required sacraments for salvation, just as the Church of England did in John Adams' day.
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by SheikBen on Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:27 am
TerryRC,
I think Sam said it well. Let's say that your bumper sticker, instead of speaking ill of Baptists, said something like:
"the problem with Democrats is that they are not drowned"
or
"the problem with Republicans is that they are not drowned"
or
"the problem with union members is that they are not drowned"
Do you really believe that you would have had a different result? Especially the last example, any "difference" would have involved the car being occupied when it was shot at, I reckon.
I think Sam said it well. Let's say that your bumper sticker, instead of speaking ill of Baptists, said something like:
"the problem with Democrats is that they are not drowned"
or
"the problem with Republicans is that they are not drowned"
or
"the problem with union members is that they are not drowned"
Do you really believe that you would have had a different result? Especially the last example, any "difference" would have involved the car being occupied when it was shot at, I reckon.
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by TerryRC on Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:27 am
And just what the hell does Christianity have to do with people’s intolerance for your public display of a “bumper sticker” condoning murder?
It is no wonder that five irate cops pulled you over, …… they know how many crazies are walking the streets and might likely do what your bumper sticker suggests.
Hells bells, they probably figured if you hated Baptists enough to publicly proclaim said, ........ then you were crazy enough to be drowning someone.
And I would have trouble getting PO’ed at anyone for slashing your tires or shooting a hole in your vehicle that displayed such a message …. if they had suffered the loss of a loved one via a crazie like you who murdered their loved one by drowning them.
Rant on...
My son beat the crap out of your honor student is a bumper sticker that condones extreme violence and anti-education sentiment - we don't see these people being hassled.
We have heard Keli make very similar off-color jokes on these boards. Nobody has threatened him with violence.
So in exercising one's right to free speech, vigilantism is an acceptable response (apparently as long as the vigilantes are on the side of religion)?
Sam, you just made my point for me. Thanks.
It is no wonder that five irate cops pulled you over, …… they know how many crazies are walking the streets and might likely do what your bumper sticker suggests.
Hells bells, they probably figured if you hated Baptists enough to publicly proclaim said, ........ then you were crazy enough to be drowning someone.
And I would have trouble getting PO’ed at anyone for slashing your tires or shooting a hole in your vehicle that displayed such a message …. if they had suffered the loss of a loved one via a crazie like you who murdered their loved one by drowning them.
Rant on...
My son beat the crap out of your honor student is a bumper sticker that condones extreme violence and anti-education sentiment - we don't see these people being hassled.
We have heard Keli make very similar off-color jokes on these boards. Nobody has threatened him with violence.
So in exercising one's right to free speech, vigilantism is an acceptable response (apparently as long as the vigilantes are on the side of religion)?
Sam, you just made my point for me. Thanks.
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
-Sir John Harrington
-Sir John Harrington
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by TerryRC on Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:34 am
The churches in Europe in John Adams' day hardly qualified as fundamentalist. Infant baptism is an obvious example of a difference between then and now. A few such people actually made it a habit of drowning or near-drowning baptists in a mocking of the adult baptism experience. What TerryRC finds funny actually led to the deaths of some people for their religious beliefs.
M. M. O'Hare.
Killed for her atheism.
You would have to show me where people made it a habit of killing baptists. I can cite you instances where, in years gone by, baptists have run papists out of town on a rail, however.
I get the sense that Ziggy and TerryRC have a priori defined fundamentalism as the violent and intolerant use of religion, and therefore feel the ability to make every example of religious violence fit their definition, even though it is tautalogical and scatological. If instead by fundamentalism one means the belief in the inerrancy of Scripture, the superiority and authority of Scripture over church leadership, and a personal salvation by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, and not of ourselves and our works, we will surely find that fundamentalist Christianity is innocent of the charges proferred against it. The Catholic church even today does not subscribe to the above two. It has an "infallible pope" ex cathedra. It has required sacraments for salvation, just as the Church of England did in John Adams' day.
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
That superiority of scripture lead to alot of deaths.
Islam and christianity have a bundle of similarities, the most important of which is the compulsion to make converts. I could list you pages of other similarities but I think it would not, in the end, make much difference.
The two religions are more similar than different, IMHO.
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
-Sir John Harrington
-Sir John Harrington
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by TerryRC on Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:37 am
I also can't help but notice how scared people are about someone "not christian" in the White House.
[sarcasm]
The government never uses force to promote religiously based legislation, right?
What are you all scared of then?
[/sarcasm]
[sarcasm]
The government never uses force to promote religiously based legislation, right?
What are you all scared of then?
[/sarcasm]
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
-Sir John Harrington
-Sir John Harrington
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by shermangeneral on Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:22 am
Well if it were not for the so-called activist Court system, we would have far less tolerance.
And far more professing Christians.
And far more professing Christians.
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by SamCogar on Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:42 pm
TerryRC wrote:And just what the hell does Christianity have to do with people’s intolerance for your public display of a “bumper sticker” condoning murder?
It is no wonder that five irate cops pulled you over, …… they know how many crazies are walking the streets and might likely do what your bumper sticker suggests.
Hells bells, they probably figured if you hated Baptists enough to publicly proclaim said, ........ then you were crazy enough to be drowning someone.
And I would have trouble getting PO’ed at anyone for slashing your tires or shooting a hole in your vehicle that displayed such a message …. if they had suffered the loss of a loved one via a crazie like you who murdered their loved one by drowning them.
Rant on...
My son beat the crap out of your honor student is a bumper sticker that condones extreme violence and anti-education sentiment - we don't see these people being hassled.
We have heard Keli make very similar off-color jokes on these boards. Nobody has threatened him with violence.
So in exercising one's right to free speech, vigilantism is an acceptable response (apparently as long as the vigilantes are on the side of religion)?
Sam, you just made my point for me. Thanks.
Who in hell takes care of you when I'm not.
Oh, I forgot, ..... no one, ....... that's why you get your tires slashed and shot at.
.
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by SheikBen on Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:57 pm
TerryRC,
Do you have any proof at all that O'Hair was killed for her atheism?
Do you have any proof at all that O'Hair was killed for her atheism?
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by ziggy on Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:06 pm
Murder
Ultimately, a murder investigation focused on Waters, who had worked as a typesetter for American Atheists and was the organization's office manager at the time the three vanished. Not only did Waters have previous convictions for violent crimes, there were several suspicious burglaries during his tenure, and he pleaded guilty earlier in 1995 to stealing $54,000 from American Atheists.[18]
Shortly after his theft of the $54,000 was discovered, O'Hair wrote a scathing article in the 'Members Only' section of the American Atheists newsletter exposing Waters, the theft, and Waters' previous crimes,[8] including a 1977 incident in which Waters allegedly beat and urinated upon his own mother.[18] Waters' girlfriend later testified that he was enraged by O'Hair's article, and that he fantasized about torturing her in gruesome ways.[18]
Police concluded that Waters and his accomplices had kidnapped all three O'Hairs, forced them to withdraw the missing funds, went on several huge shopping sprees with the O'Hairs' money and credit cards, and then murdered all three people. Danny Fry, an accomplice, was murdered a few days after the O'Hairs; his body was found with its head and hands severed on a riverbed, but his remains were unidentified for three and a half years. Waters eventually pled guilty to reduced charges.
In January 2001, Waters informed the police that the O'Hairs were buried on a Texas ranch, and he subsequently led them to the bodies.[8][14] When the police excavated there, they discovered that the O'Hairs' bodies had been cut into dozens of pieces with a saw. The remains exhibited such extensive mutilation and successive decomposition that identification had to be made through dental records, by DNA testing and, in Madalyn O'Hair's case, by her prosthetic hip.[19]
The gold coins extorted from the O'Hairs were put in a storage locker rented by Waters' girlfriend.[citation needed] Waters had taken out $80,000 and partied with his girlfriend for a few days,[citation needed] but upon his return he discovered that the remaining $420,000 had been stolen.[citation needed] A group of thieves operating in that area had a master key to the type of lock which Waters used to secure the locker. In the course of their activities, they came across the locker, used the master key to open it, and found a suitcase full of gold coins. They eventually spent all but one, which the police recovered.[citation needed]
Waters was found guilty of kidnapping, robbery, and murder in the Murray case, and was sentenced to 20 years in prison.[20] In addition, he was also ordered to pay back a total of $543,665 to the United Secularists of America and the estates of Madalyn Murray O'Hair, Jon Garth Murray, and Robin Murray-O'Hair. It is unlikely that any of these debts were paid, as Waters had no ability to earn money while in prison. Waters died in prison of lung cancer on January 27, 2003.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O'Hair
The government consists of a gang of men who, taking one with another, have no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office.
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by SheikBen on Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:15 am
There isn't anything in that very sad story about O'Hair being murdered because she was an atheist.
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by TerryRC on Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:54 am
There isn't anything in that very sad story about O'Hair being murdered because she was an atheist.
My mistake. She was killed for money and revenge.
If Waters hadn't got her, don't you think someone would have?
A wiki (for what it is worth):
In the same Playboy interview, O'Hair gave a lengthy list of alleged incidents of harassment, intimidation, and even death threats against her and her family for her views. She read several profane letters she received in the mail, with content including one that said, "you will be killed before too long. Or maybe your pretty little baby boy. The queer-looking bastard. You are a bitch and your son is a bastard". In response, O'Hair told the interviewer, "Isn't that lovely? Christine Jorgensen had to go to Sweden for an operation, but me they'll fix with faith – painlessly and for nothing." She stated that she left Baltimore not from fear of prosecution for assaulting police officers, but because of persecution from Baltimore residents, including receipt of mail containing photos smeared with feces, the strangulation of her son Bill's pet kitten, and the stoning of her home by neighborhood residents, which she claimed caused her father's fatal heart attack.[6]
Big tolerance. Bets most of offenders would claim to be christians?
I'm not saying she was a class act but I don't see much tolerance from her opponents.
My mistake. She was killed for money and revenge.
If Waters hadn't got her, don't you think someone would have?
A wiki (for what it is worth):
In the same Playboy interview, O'Hair gave a lengthy list of alleged incidents of harassment, intimidation, and even death threats against her and her family for her views. She read several profane letters she received in the mail, with content including one that said, "you will be killed before too long. Or maybe your pretty little baby boy. The queer-looking bastard. You are a bitch and your son is a bastard". In response, O'Hair told the interviewer, "Isn't that lovely? Christine Jorgensen had to go to Sweden for an operation, but me they'll fix with faith – painlessly and for nothing." She stated that she left Baltimore not from fear of prosecution for assaulting police officers, but because of persecution from Baltimore residents, including receipt of mail containing photos smeared with feces, the strangulation of her son Bill's pet kitten, and the stoning of her home by neighborhood residents, which she claimed caused her father's fatal heart attack.[6]
Big tolerance. Bets most of offenders would claim to be christians?
I'm not saying she was a class act but I don't see much tolerance from her opponents.
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
-Sir John Harrington
-Sir John Harrington
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by TerryRC on Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:59 am
Who in hell takes care of you when I'm not.
Oh, I forgot, ..... no one, ....... that's why you get your tires slashed and shot at.
Lost your argument, Sam? Look around. I'm sure you dropped it somewhere nearby.
Ann Coulter can say that atheists should not be citizens of this country or that liberals should be shot or put in concentration camps and it gets lapped up.
Make a comment about religion and you are EVIL.
Why should attacking religion be taboo when it is OK to attack every damn thing else?
It is a double standard and I submit it is stupid.
Oh, I forgot, ..... no one, ....... that's why you get your tires slashed and shot at.
Lost your argument, Sam? Look around. I'm sure you dropped it somewhere nearby.
Ann Coulter can say that atheists should not be citizens of this country or that liberals should be shot or put in concentration camps and it gets lapped up.
Make a comment about religion and you are EVIL.
Why should attacking religion be taboo when it is OK to attack every damn thing else?
It is a double standard and I submit it is stupid.
Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
-Sir John Harrington
-Sir John Harrington
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by SheikBen on Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:32 pm
Do good to those who persecute you does not sound like advice being heeded by these cretins, so even if they are "Christians" they are not accepting the advise of their Savior.
But it's worth noting that 87% of this country is Christian and only 6 percent or so is atheist, and yet it was an employee of the American Atheists, and not a Christian, that killed O'Hair.
It was a tragedy whoever did this, but it's not an example that helps your case, Terry. O'Hair did great damage to the Christian culture in the United States and yet was killed by an atheist. If Christianity were such the instigator you feel it to be, and atheism weren't, one would have expected a different end to the story.
I may have asked you this before, but I will do so again. Let's say you are walking down the street in a particularly dangerous part of Nashville or Memphis, and there is a group of 10 young men walking toward you on the sidewalk. Would you be more or less afraid if you learned that they had just left a Bible study?
But it's worth noting that 87% of this country is Christian and only 6 percent or so is atheist, and yet it was an employee of the American Atheists, and not a Christian, that killed O'Hair.
It was a tragedy whoever did this, but it's not an example that helps your case, Terry. O'Hair did great damage to the Christian culture in the United States and yet was killed by an atheist. If Christianity were such the instigator you feel it to be, and atheism weren't, one would have expected a different end to the story.
I may have asked you this before, but I will do so again. Let's say you are walking down the street in a particularly dangerous part of Nashville or Memphis, and there is a group of 10 young men walking toward you on the sidewalk. Would you be more or less afraid if you learned that they had just left a Bible study?
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by Stephanie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:59 pm
OK, I know this is a little off topic but I have to share this with SOMEBODY.
Today I took Loyd to the Clay Center for a "Homeschool Event Day". As I'm sure many of you are aware many families homeschool for religious reasons, particularly in locations like WV.
So there were a lot of Christian families there and this one little boy of about 4 was wearing this read t-shirt that read
Like the Coca-Cola slogan thingie.
Who comes up with this stuff? I couldn't even believe anybody would put such a thing on such a young child.
Thanks for letting me share that.
Today I took Loyd to the Clay Center for a "Homeschool Event Day". As I'm sure many of you are aware many families homeschool for religious reasons, particularly in locations like WV.
So there were a lot of Christian families there and this one little boy of about 4 was wearing this read t-shirt that read
Jesus-Christ
He's the Real Thing!
Like the Coca-Cola slogan thingie.
Who comes up with this stuff? I couldn't even believe anybody would put such a thing on such a young child.
Thanks for letting me share that.
Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense.
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
-Ron Paul
When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads.
-Ron Paul
The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people.
-Ron Paul
Re: Franklin Graham peppered Obama about ties to Islam
by SamCogar on Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:55 am
TerryRC wrote:Lost your argument, Sam? Look around. I'm sure you dropped it somewhere nearby.
Terry, ..... I have more answers than you have questions ..... on just about any subject.
.
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