Strip mining & water quality.

Aaron wrote:

TerryRC wrote:Perhaps I will. I'm just trying to decide if it is worth the effort.

In the southern coal fields, not too much, I'm afraid.

That isn't the case with the rest of the state.

Considering that the bulk of the MTR sites are in southern WV, where is it affecting the fishies?

Aaron, that is why one has to "pay close attention" when reading such reports and news articles ...... because NO WHERE did it state any fishies were being affected. It merilly stated piffling facts of no consequence, to wit:

Mayflies are short-lived aquatic insects that are considered an important part of the food web. They are especially vital for fish such as trout, bass and catfish.

But just by stating said in that article ...... they know damn well that 90% of the people that read it ....... will think n' believe all those frigging streams down there in MTR country are just chock full of trout, bass and catfish that are dying by the truckloads because they don't have any Mayfles to eat.

And an added thought to think about, ..... no self respecting trout, bass or catfish can be found in any of those intermittent streams because they can not survive in them like minnows and chubs can.

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I walk away every time Feed the Children shows some poor starving kid living in a trash heap. It's the same thing. They try and play on ones emotional responses to get what they desire. It's at best, deceiving.

I'm not of a mind that damage isn't done by MTM. I don't question that. Hell, anyone with even a lick of sense knows that if you move millions of tons of earth that damage is going to be done. What I question is the damage that is done, is it permanent and irrevocable. I’ve yet to see any evidence that it is, therefore, I don’t believe it is.

Aaron wrote:I'm not of a mind that damage isn't done by MTM. What I question is the damage that is done, is it permanent and irrevocable. I’ve yet to see any evidence that it is, therefore, I don’t believe it is.

The FBI complex in Clarksburg, WV (above) provides more than 3,000 West Virginia jobs. Completed in 1995, the complex is located on 986 acres of reclaimed land.


Mount View High School was built on an area that once was a mountaintop mining site. With McDowell County more than 90 percent hillside, land available for economic development is in short supply.


Twisted Gun Golf Course in Mingo County, West Virginia, is located on reclaimed land.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nma.org/images/FBI_Clarksburg2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nma.org/policy/reclamation/land_use_article.asp&h=162&w=225&sz=14&hl=en&start=40&um=1&tbnid=Sp5Uxg8gXCRMXM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=108&prev=/images%3Fq%3DEastpoint%2BShopping%2BCenter%2BWV%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1G1GGLQ_ENUS276%26sa%3DN

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Aaron: Considering that the bulk of the MTR sites are in southern WV, where is it affecting the fishies?


Sammy: Aaron, that is why one has to "pay close attention" when reading such reports and news articles ...... because NO WHERE did it state any fishies were being affected. It merilly stated piffling facts of no consequence, to wit:

So you are unaware of the MTR sites between French Creek and Elkins? The sites in Preston County between Bruceton Mills and Cheat Lake?

There are other parts of the state that are impacted, even if the bulk is in the southern part of the state.

I can see that you don't mind tearing up the po' folk in Mingo, Wyoming and Logan Counties. After all, that part of the state has already been trashed, right?

Of course, you can build a golf course on every MTR site. Doesn't matter if the locals can even afford to play them.

You two should take your act on the road.

I'll bet they'll like it down in War. After all, the coal companies have left them in such great shape.

You didn't answer the question TC. Seems your all hat and no cowboy.

Here is but one more example of:

The new United Hospital Center

QUICK FACTS

Location:
Off I-79 at Exit 124/Jerry Dove Drive in Bridgeport

Beds:
289 private inpatient rooms and 24 observation rooms

Total Square Feet:
681,440 square foot, eight-level structure
(UHC currently has 440,000 square feet)

Parking:
2,570 spaces (up from 1,376 at the present site)

Jobs:
Construction phase – Ranging from 50 to more than 600 workers on site when construction is at its peak. UHC has signed a Project Labor Agreement with the North Central West Virginia Building and Construction Trades Council to supply craftsmen for the project.

2010 - Addition of at least 60 full time positions to coincide with the opening

Project Cost:
$278 million

Cost Breakdown:
Facility and Design - $206,632,000
Equipment and Moving - $47,830,000
Bond Insurance and Financing Costs - $8,014,000
Construction Period Interest Expense - $13,581,000
Inspections, Permits, Insurance and Other - $2,005,000

Timeline:
2006: Site work begins
2007: Building construction begins
2010: opens

http://www.uhcwv.org/pages/newuhc.html

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TerryRC wrote:Aaron: Considering that the bulk of the MTR sites are in southern WV, where is it affecting the fishies?


Sammy: Aaron, that is why one has to "pay close attention" when reading such reports and news articles ...... because NO WHERE did it state any fishies were being affected. It merilly stated piffling facts of no consequence, to wit:

So you are unaware of the MTR sites between French Creek and Elkins? The sites in Preston County between Bruceton Mills and Cheat Lake?

There are other parts of the state that are impacted, even if the bulk is in the southern part of the state.

I can see that you don't mind tearing up the po' folk in Mingo, Wyoming and Logan Counties. After all, that part of the state has already been trashed, right?

Of course, you can build a golf course on every MTR site. Doesn't matter if the locals can even afford to play them.

You two should take your act on the road.

I'll bet they'll like it down in War. After all, the coal companies have left them in such great shape.

I know there are other MTR sites in the eastern mountains. The questions I ask Frank were for ALL MTR sites, not just the ones in southern WV?

So what damage is being done? And is this damage permanent and irrevocable? Can you show where perennial streams have been turned into intermittent streams? Do you have any information where the mayflies are leaving current sites and if so, was there any studies done on reclaimed MTR sites that either confirm the mayfly is indeed gone or did it return. If there is loss of Mayfly’s how is it affecting the fish in the streams and rivers affected from MTR sites?

Is it worth the effort or are you just going to spout the same accusations with no proof?

I pose the same questions for the King Coal Highway as well TC.

If you're not familiar with travel from Williamson to Princeton, you currently travel Rt 52. It's only ~110 miles but it can take as much as 3 to 4 hours to make the trip. I used to make this trip at least once, sometimes twice a week. I have known people that add 60 miles to the trip by coming to Charleston and travel in in the same amount of time.

The KCH will reduce this trip to right around 2 hours and provide many new economic opportunities to a section of the state that has basically none after coal. But to build it, they are going to cut off the tops of mountains and fill the valley's that lie in between for those 110 miles or so.

Is it worth it?

You didn't answer the question TC. Seems your all hat and no cowboy.

I just told you - Randolph, Upshur, Preston...

It doesn't really matter. Give a call to DEP OWR and ask them for a list of insects and other amimals that ONLY live at the top of first order streams. Then ask them for a list of animals that depend heavily on them for food.

I could do it for you but I would be suspect and they should have that information already assembled.

You could do the research yourself but I doubt you care enough.

What happens at the top of a stream affects everything below it.

If you do decide to research it, you may find it interesting.

Can you show where perennial streams have been turned into intermittent streams?

I can take you to places where the top half-mile of a PERMANENT stream was filled in.

Go take a look at some of the tribs of Trace Fork in the southern part of this county.

Don't bother to bring a fishing pole.

Is it all worth it?

Dunno.

Yes, they are going to have to level some mountains to build the new highway. Yes, they probably need it. I've done a lot of traveling down there and it isn't quick.

Would the coal companies stop at a right-of-way for a road? Doubt it. They won't stop until they have it all that they can get for a decent profit.

To me it isn't worth it. We are losing things that we won't get back. To you, that may be a small price to pay, if it isn't in your backyard, I'm guessing.

It is in my backyard. I have a stream that is lifeless and orange. It is from an old shaft mine that is still open. No one will take responsibility for it.

So what you can do TC is tell me the same things environmentalist say but you have nothing to back it up and I should be the one to do the research.

I don't doubt that MTR affects the ecology. But so does building roads, houses and everything else we build for meet the demands of our ever-growing population. I'm not in favor or toxic waste dumping or stuff like that and I do believe we should regulate and ensure that campanies are doing everything they need to be doing to take care of our planet, but I don't believe we as a society can let some of the things we do take precedence over providing electricity for millions of people.

Show me where we are DESTROYING our environment with irrevocable damage and I’ll be upset. But I don’t see that. What I see is a basic need for millions of Americans being provided by West Virginians working high wage jobs.

The long term human benefits of building highways, airports and other infrastructure are far more justifiable than the short term "benefits" of getting the coal out as cheaply as possible and then abandoning the land.

"Permanent" infrastructures can provide almost priceless economic and other human benefits.

Rip and run strip mining and MTR coal mining operations leave in their wake environmental meyham and endless human miseries. Look at McDowell County, WV and Harlan County, KY for the poster boys of "post-mining land use".

First, no infrastructure is permanent. It requires maintenance and upkeep which requires money and in that part of the state, the only money comes from coal mining. That's a simple fact of life. If you take away mining from that area, there's nothing else in that part of the state and it would quickly dry up. And when that happens, there would be no money from that part of the state to maintain the roads so in essence, without coal and all of those hypothetical miseries and unsubstantiated environmental mayhem’s you keep crying about, there's no need for that road.

Speaking of all these 'miseries' and environmental mayhem’s, I’m not sure what you're referring to. Why don't you explain what some of these 'miseries' and environmental issues are and we'll discuss them.

As for the economic impact, I agree that not enough has been put back in the communities. But I blame the local and state governments as much as I do the coal companies. I don't excuse local and state government workers and politicians for being corrupt and placing personal gain ahead of public good, which is what they were/are elected to do, in the manner that you excuse them and place ALL the blame on the corporations.

That's the difference in my view of personal responsibility and your's of the state can do no wrong socialism.

That's the difference in my view of personal responsibility and your's of the state can do no wrong socialism.

As I told Sam, if I thought that "the state can do no wrong", I wouldn't have spent much of the past 20 years working to sue state agencies for doing wrong.

So what you can do TC is tell me the same things environmentalist say but you have nothing to back it up and I should be the one to do the research.

I know the answers, Aaron. I just want you to get them from someone you will believe.

Call OWR. Ask for any of the biologists. Ask them what I told you to ask.

Since you likely can't be bothered:

Some research. A few bits are even done in WV.

Then come and visit my dead, orange creek in which nothing but slime grows.

That should be all of the research you need, at least to convince you that the coal companies just don't care who gets screwed as long as they protect their profit margins.

High-income jobs. Crap. The industry probably lays off more than they hire, as automation becomes more efficient.