Iran and U.S. Elections

Your "source" Sherm is a blog. You're posting someone else's opinion and to refute my opinion?

Please.

shermangeneral wrote:Well Randall I posted links to information to justify my concern.

Do have anything of substance to justify your out-of-hand denial?

Or is it just your considered opinion?

It is my considered opinion, gleened from working in the military/industrial complex for two years. There will be no US attack on Iran, Sherm. If we were going to war to Iran, believe me, it would be widely known, not "whispered" by Seymour Hersh. And blog postings are not evidence that there will be such an attack.

Aaron wrote:You can take this as gospel Sherm. I'll wait on a little more reliable source.

Israel Air Force (IAF) war planes are practicing in Iraqi airspace and land on US airbases in the country as a preparation for a potential strike on Iran, sources in the Iraqi Defense Ministry told a local news network on Friday.

The report, carried also by Iranian news outlets, claimed that recently massive nocturnal activity by IAF craft was noted in several American held airbases, including measures by the US army to increase security around the bases.

The Jerusalem Post could not confirm the veracity of the report.

According to the sources, former military officers in the Anbar province said IAF jets arrive during the night from Jordanian airspace, enter Iraq's airspace and land on a runway near the city of Hadita. The sources estimated the jets were practicing for a raid on Iran's nuclear sites.

The sources also said the American bases in Iraq might serve as a platform for the IAF from which to attack Iran. If Israeli warplanes will take off from Iraq, they can reach Bushehr in five minutes - a "record time," the sources said.

The Israelis refuse to confirm the known fact they have nuclear missiles. The Jerusalem Post and the Israeli government denial doesn't alter the facts.

Randall,

Do you think Israel will attack Iran? If they do and have difficulties what do you suppose our government will do?

Israel is trying to bait us into war with Iran.

Well Stephanie, that is the question of the hour, isn't it? I don't disagree with you that Israel would like to bait us or persuade us into attacking Iran for them. And while the US is not going to attack Iran, Israel might. If I had to guess (and it's just a guess), I'd say they will attack if Iran continues down its present course. As for Israel "having difficulties" in its attack, it depends on what kind of difficulties. If Israel's offensive is merely insufficient to destroy Iran's nuclear program, then I think we would try to stand by and not get sucked in. If Iran somehow were able to launch a military counterattack against Israel itself (not as likely as you might think, by the way), then we would probably get involved. So yes, the danger of a war is very real, and my crystal ball is a bit cloudy. But the US is not looking to start a war, and is actively trying to prevent it, believe it or not.

Randall,

I'm not disagreeing with you. Perhaps I need to be a bit clearer in my statements to others when I speak of this particular issue. Israel wants the US to go to war with Iran. They are going to great lengths to achieve their goal.

What I fail to see is how Israel appears to be the "good guys" to anyone in all of this. It's OK for Israel to be one of the best armed and trained militaries in the history of humanity, but her neighbors must remain weak and survive on the hope that tiny, violent, greedy nation will never utilize their WMD's and annihilate them. It's OK for Israel to practice genocide and apartheid but we can't ever discuss Israeli aggression againt Arabs because we're afraid of being labled anti-Semetic.

I'm too old and too cranky and the stakes are too high for me to worry about all that shit. The stakes are far too high for the rest of the world to tolerate it either.

I think if Israel attacks Iran Iranians will fight back. I don't think they will roll over and die for the Israelis. On the other hand, if all Israel does is bomb nuclear targets, and if their strikes don't cause civilian casualties, I think it is quite possible Israel will only suffer the kinds of losses from Iranians they currently suffer from Syrians and Palestinians.

My concern is that if Iranians rise up and fight Israel in large numbers, some of her neighbors may decide the time is right to attack Israel. That is when our government is likely to send my countrymen to fight and die on behalf of Israel and that just should not be. If Israel wants to go to war with her Arab neighbors than Israel must suffer the consequences, not my nation, not my people.

I get really furious just thinking about it.

Stephanie, I am not usually this optimistic, but I don't think you should unduly worry about the Arab nations getting involved in an Israel-Iran war. The Arabs, with the possible exception of Syria (who the Israelis are now actively negotiating with through Turkey), are deeply concerned about Iran's nuclear ambitions, and its broader regional aspirations as well. Hezbollah is likely to retaliate against northern Israel, but unfortunately that is not new.

We have a very fundamental disagreement about Israel. When I see the lone pro-Western liberal democracy in the region threatened by a rabidly anti-American theocratic regime, it is quite clear to me who the "good guys" are. That is not to say we should always support Israel in everything it does, or that its abuses against Palestinians should be ignored. But if the spreading of freedom and democracy and the rule of law are truly important to us in our foreign policy goals (and I recognize that you probably disagree with those goals as well), we should support those ideals where we find them.

You point to Israel's WMDs. This is a common argument: How can we oppose Iran's nuclear ambitions if we stand by silent when Israel has had nukes for 40 years? Well, I would submit that having nukes for 40 years and not using them, even during multiple wars, is a pretty good indicator that Israel is responsible with its nuclear capability. Iran, with its daily announcements that Israel will be wiped off the map, does not engender such confidence. Also, I will ask you a question I've asked before on the previous forum: In the 1950s, the Soviet Union and Great Britain both had nuclear weapons. What basis did we have to treat them differently?

Randall,

I'm not sure I see what relevance your question has to this discussion. The Soviets had nuclear weapons, unlike Syria or Iran or Lebanon or Iraq or Gaza or any of the other nations and people we take all kinds of aggressive action against on behalf of Israel.

I honestly don't know how you could want to arm and supply and financially support a nation who is so abusive to the indigenous people of the region. Israel refuses to comply with UN Resolutions, and the USA adds another billion in aid. Gaza holds democratic elections and the USA supports and aids Israel in cutting them off from the rest of the world because Israel doesn't like who they elected.

Israel refuses to abide by its internationally recognized borders. When desparate Palestinians retalliate by attacking settlements in the West Bank they are labled terrorists. America rewards this behavior with money and tanks and technology.

The Israeli government refuses to allow indigenous refugees to return to their homeland. They don't care that generations of Palestinians have grown up in refugee camps not accepted by the nations that house them. They refuse to allow Palestinians to be readmitted to the West Bank if they travel for religious or business purposes. They are practicing genocide but that's acceptable to you and the American government because you think they are a democracy?

The Israeli government won't be satisfied until the rid the Earth of the Palestinian people. It is a land grabbing, power hungry killing machine funded and protected by my government. I will never be quiet about that.

I will never consider Israel a friend of America. Not when they work so hard to pull my country into conflict after conflict. Not when they commit acts of espionage on my nation, the nation that has given them the money and the weapons to become one of the largest economies in the world.

I hear frequently Israel is "our only friend in the region". BULL!

I don't know about you, Randall, but I haven't bought my friends. That isn't to say I don't do favors for them and give them a helping hand when I can. Yesterday I went with my friend Laura to pick up a van she purchased. She doesn't have the internet and was recently diagnosed with an autoimmune disease, I have done all kinds of research for her on her illness. She lets my kids swim in her pool whenever they want and took care of my pets while we all visited RI last year. We're friends.

Just how long do you suppose Israel would treat us as a friend if we suddenly stopped the gravy train? What our leaders woke the hell up and decided we need those billions we're sending there to repair our crumbling infrastructure? Just how long do you think Israel would be our friend?

Steph do you believe we should abandon Israel?

I have laid out in the previous forum what I think should be done, but I don't mind doing it again.

I think the US should tell Israel we're not going to fund or arm or protect them any more and allow all the Israeli citizens 2 years to come here. If this country can absorb the millions of aliens we do each and every year, plus all those illegal aliens, we can handle taking in all that wish to come here. Some will return to the nation of their birth, some will want to come here.

I do wish to "abandon" Israel, I don't wish to abandon the Jews.

Stephanie,

On what basis does a nation have a right to exist?

A nation that can support and defend itself without massive infusions of US aid for 45 years. A nation with a government that doesn't practice genocide and ethnic cleansing in the 21st Century.

Well the Good Book says God told the children of Israel I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee.

http://www.freedomunderground.org/view.php?v=3&t=3&l=18&aid=25192

Does the "good book" also say the children of Israel will be rewarded for demolishing farms and homes and schools in a land grab?

Are you insisting that the USA must fund Israel because of fundamentalist ideology? I can't even believe you would provide a link to that kind of propaganda aimed at fundie wingnuts to me!

Did you read the link and how the things have played out

Sherm,

I skimmed it. Proof that Jews are blessed because they have received a disproportionate number of Nobel Prizes and Muslims are cursed because they haven't been awarded enough over the past 100 years. Give me a frigging break.