on a former Massey Energy surface mine

The failures as I see it lie not in the industry itself, but in the regulation of the industry by the government.

So are you blaming those failures on the regulation of industry by the government, or the government not effectively regulating the industry?

And we could look at other organized crime- not just the coal criminals- in the same way. Indeed, I think I recall reading that mafia lawyers have taken that very same tact when defending their clients- that organized crime couldn't stay organized but for the failures of the government to prohibit it.

The "Catch me only if you will" circular defense is lame.

ziggy wrote:

The failures as I see it lie not in the industry itself, but in the regulation of the industry by the government.

So are you blaming those failures on the regulation of industry by the government, or the government not effectively regulating the industry?

I have no idea what you're trying to say. You'll have to clarify your double talk before we can discuss further.

OK. I will try again.

Aaron said:

The failures as I see it lie not in the industry itself, but in the regulation of the industry by the government.

So are the failures because the government does regulate the industry?

Or are the failures because the government does not regulate the industry?

Aaron,

You're giving the coal industry a pass for violating regulations in place to protect the environment and citizens because the government doesn't adequately enforce the regulations. That's bull.

If the cook who prepares your meal the next time you dine out fails to wash his hands after using the restroom, the fact that no health inspector witnessed this offense doesn't make the food he prepared for you any less dangerous to eat. It also doesn't mean that handwashing by food service workers isn't important.

If government regulations carry a penalty for failure to comply with said regulations ....... then it is the responsibility of government to enforce said regulations.

If a parent establishes rules and regulations to govern or control their childrens' actions and behaviors .........then we all know who is the ultimate authority responsible for enforcing said rules and regulations.



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The failures of the government are that they are given the responsibility to regulate the industry and they are failing miserably due to corruption, ineptness, cronyism and outright criminal acts.

And I'm not giving a pass to anyone. What I'm saying is if the 'health inspector' comes around enough and does their job, then someone in the kitchen is going to make sure the cook is following the rules or they'll get rid of him.

But with MSHA and the mining industries, the inspectors aren’t worried about coming around, they’re worried about what they get for not coming around. I’ve seen Frank say the coal industry is worse for offering the bribe.

I don’t agree with that. IMO, the inspectors and MSHA are much worse for accepting the bribes and allowing the coal industry run roughshod over them in exchange for their ‘donations’.

I don’t agree with that. IMO, the inspectors and MSHA are much worse for accepting the bribes and allowing the coal industry run roughshod over them in exchange for their ‘donations’.

And so would you likewise think that a hooker is "much worse" for accepting the fee than the John who 'donated' it?

It's got to be for sale before he can buy it!!!

And there's got to be a buyer for the seller to have a market.

Josephus said it best about one of you.

Now I cannot but think, that the greatness of a kingdom, and its changes into prosperity, often becomes the occasion of mischief and of transgression to men, for so it usually happens, that the manners of subjects are corrupted at the same time with those of their governors, which subjects then lay aside their own sober way of living, as a reproof of their governor’s intemperate courses, and follow their wickedness, as if it were virtue, for it is not possible to show that men approve of the actions of their kings, unless they do the same actions with them. (Josephus)

And that one of you is the one that approves of the actions of public employees by claiming it is not their fault that they are lying, thieving, dishonest and/or corrupt individuals.



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Look, I don't like the prostitute/john analogy.

My problem is no matter who is more to blame, the coal companies or the government, where the blame lays change the fact that streams are clogged, habitats are destroyed, air is fouled, areas now vulnerable to mudslides and flooding and the land is forever scarred.

Stephanie wrote:Look, I don't like the prostitute/john analogy.

My problem is no matter who is more to blame, the coal companies or the government, where the blame lays change the fact that streams are clogged, habitats are destroyed, air is fouled, areas now vulnerable to mudslides and flooding and the land is forever scarred.

So if the coal company is within complete guidelines of the law and the permitting process, whose fault is it then?

They are both to blame. The coal company for doing it, and the government for allowing them to.

Aaron, my understanding is that where I live there are no ordinances regarding a lot of quality of life type issues. For example, I don't believe there is a noise ordinance out here in the boonies. So if I blast my sound system and rock the neighborhood at 3:00am or if my dogs bark out of control all night long, these disturbances aren't in violation of any law.

Do you suppose the fact there is no law against allowing my dogs to bark all night or stay up all night listening to Hellbilly Deluxe or the White Album would make my neighbors sleep easier? Do you think they'd blame me any less because the government doesn't prevent me from doing this?

No, after a couple of sleepless nights they'd hate my stinking guts, shoot my dogs and maybe me too, because I am the person making them miss their sleep. I would be to blame.

Nobody is holding a gun to the heads of coal companies who practice strip mining. They do so strictly out of greed.

And if you're neighbors shot your dogs, it would be they that were in violation of the law. The appropriate response would be to change the law and institute a noise ordinance and in doing so, allow ALL your neighbors to weigh in on the situation.

While one neighbor may complain, your barking dogs may be keeping predatory animals from their chickens and roosters or deer from their gardens and they have no problem whatsoever with the barking. In fact, they may welcome it.

Aaron,

The lack of a noise ordinance isn't going to make me jack up my music in the wee hours of the morning or allow my dogs to bark endlessly all night long. Being a decent human being and a courteous neighbor prevents these behaviors.

Why can't coal executives just be decent human beings and courteous neighbors? The only thing preventing them is greed.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it Stephanie. But not seeing their profit statements, I have no idea how much they are making off of these particular mines.

I do know that multiple location corporations have different profit margins based on many aspects of doing business at different locations and I also know for a fact that West Virginia is, overall, not a corporate friendly environment.

There's also more then one company mining as well. How fair is it to Arch Coal and their investors to leave sales and profits in the ground, or worse, utilize a more expensive method of extracting the coal if Peabody and Massey aren't?

The bottom line is, if you don't like the practice, then it needs to be outlawed. Or more closely regulated. Or something. But to expect corporations whose goal is to make money in a safe, legal way to not do so is way beyond naive, it's ludicrous.

Aaron,

I'm not expecting to mining executives to do anything other than mine coal for as much profit as they possibly can and buy politicians.

You've asked why I oppose MTR and I've told you. What I don't understand is why, in your mind, coal companies shoulder no responsibility for the damage they do.

It's not that I don't think they shoulder any blame but if they are acting in the confines of the law, they are acting in the confines of the law.

You're analogy would be to cite every driver for speeding who was involved in an accident over 55mph because you think the speed limit should be 55mph. Your oppositon doesn't make what those drivers were doing illegal any more then your oppositon to MRT makes what coal companies are doing illegal.

If you don't like the law, then change it or strictly enforce what you have. And if you don't like MTR, then change the law or strictly enforce the regulations you have.

At least that's my opinion.

Aaron,

What do you do when the coal barons are lining the pockets of the politicians who make the laws and the government officials and judges who are supposed to be enforcing them?

You have almost 80 years of West Virginia politics Stephanie.

Right, so why then are you at all surprised that some of us would just outright oppose all MTR?

The coal company execs make enemies of people like me. We want the jobs and the revenue and the energy that comes from coal. We just can't tolerate the corruption and greed and all the rest these creeps add to the mix.

I'm not suprised at your opposition to MTR.

But your pointing your anger at the the coal company and not with the state and local government.

I understand why Frank blames the coal companies but not you.

So why do you blame the coal company instead of the state and county governments, those that have been elected by the people to deal with coal companies on our behalf, the elected officials who have sold the very citizens out that have been entrusted to protect for more for 80 some years?

I don't see it as an either/or proposition, Aaron.

Even on the rare occasion when the government goes after the coal companies friendly judges who vacation with coal execs or have their campaigns funded by the coal industry are there to if not throw the case out, at least to soften the legal blow.

For crying out loud it's disgusting.

I have to tell you all what I heard at a recent Republican "Club" meeting. OMG it about made me sick.

The SCOWV election is brought up, and somebody starts talking about how Beth Walker is the only Republican running. A recent poll shows her in basically a dead heat with Menis Ketchum and both a ways behind Workman. OK.

Well, what I gather from the conversation is the GOP wasn't too worked up about not having a second nominee for the other available seat, because they anticipated Spike Maynard winning his primary. These dolts are upset that Maynard lost the primary because they perceive him as fairly conservative.

Good grief.

If that's WV's brand of conservatism I may just have to disaffiliate from the WVGOP. Maynard's conduct in the Massey case was reprehensible. The thought that this is the Democrat the GOP wanted to live with on the Court makes my blood boil.

I have to talk it out with like-minded classic conservatives who share my goal of reclaiming our party. Thank goodness I'm not alone. Even in Putnam County I have allies, but it's rough going.

Aaron wrote:So why do you blame the coal company instead of the state and county governments, those that have been elected by the people to deal with coal companies on our behalf, the elected officials who have sold the very citizens out that have been entrusted to protect for more for 80 some years?

Aaron, Stephanie, ....... iffen you just dwell upon what I highlighted in red in Aaron's statement, ........... is that not what has caused all the problems that Congress is now facing with this "buyout" crap?



And a lot of those Congresspersons are taking tomorrow off claiming it would violate their Religious laws and beliefs if they don't.

I wonder if their Religious laws and beliefs tell them it is all right to screw the public that they have been entrusted to protect and serve?

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