Teacher Absences Bad for Education?

Aaron wrote:

wvsasha wrote:You obviously have no clue what we do and go through.

Oh, you might be suprised but for the sake of this discussion, why don't you give me a general idea.

Narrow down my choices --- elementary, middle, high school --- general or special educator?

wvsasha wrote:

Aaron wrote:

wvsasha wrote:You obviously have no clue what we do and go through.

Oh, you might be suprised but for the sake of this discussion, why don't you give me a general idea.

Narrow down my choices --- elementary, middle, high school --- general or special educator?

I don't see why we can't go with teaching in general but if you must narrow it down, let's say a high school teacher since that is where mine is at now.

Aaron wrote:I don't see why we can't go with teaching in general but if you must narrow it down, let's say a high school teacher since that is where mine is at now.

This is based on my and my husband's 13 and 16 years, respectively, teaching experience. He teaches general ed. math and science - from pre-algebra to calculus and 9th grade science thru physics excluding biology. His classes are different from year to year and semester to semester. I teach special education - everything from the self-contained behavior classrooms, to the severely profound students, the learning disabled resource classes, as well as co-teaching in the general ed. classrooms across various curriculum's and grade levels. We both have our master's degrees in our fields.

6:55am - arrive; depending on day of week - stand on hall duty or at classroom door greeting students.
7:15 - first block begins, take roll (25-30 students), review homework - collect what was completed, set aside to grade later. Teach lesson amidst various interruptions from the intercom (please excuse the choir for pictures), from the office (please send susie to the office), from Johnny sleeping, from Angie talking, from Mark playing with cell phone, wake up Johnny again, tell Sarah that she needs to wait until the end of the lesson that she can go to the bathroom, telling Shane that yes this lesson will be used in his future, from the office still looking for Susie, an administrator peeking in to say "hi", remind students about the upcoming test/project/assignments - yes they will count for a grade, yes here is another copy of the instructions for the project - here is a listing of internet sites that might be helpful; yes Sarah you can go to the bathroom now, oh - what part of the lesson confused you? Reteach necessary parts, Doug quit harassing Peggy and yes Doug, you can now go to the office for calling me a bastard. No, Susie still hasn't shown up to class. Eric - are you ok? What do you mean you didn't sleep at home last night and you haven't been able to change your clothes in 2 days? Students don't forget the assignment for tonight! See you tomorrow!

8:50 Second block - repeat 1st with differences for curriculum (math vs. science or whatever) and student names and types of interruptions; and this block has 9 special education students included so add in a co-teacher and all the fun of another adult personality in the classroom for which neither has been adequately trained or prepared.

10:20 Lunch -- depending on school - maybe lunch duty in cafeteria or rest room or gym and then a 30 minute duty-free lunch for teacher. However, duty-free only means that the office can't assign you a duty - it doesn't mean that you turn away studends requesting extra tutoring (it does happen), make up test/work/labs, or parents dropping in for a conference. Maybe read email and return a couple of notes to parents about Susie Snowflake's failing grades because she hasn't bothered to show up for class the last two weeks but it's still somehow your fault.

11:20 - 3rd block - planning - check supplies/plans for upcoming lessons for today/tomorrow. Prep for labs. Possible meetings with special educators, administrators, parents, departments. Complete documentation for students with IEPs or 504s or requests from parents to check assignment books or email on progress. Write/update plans. Checking out necessary hardware for upcoming lessons - DVD player, overhead projector, data projector, etc. Make sure it works.

1:00 - repeat 1st with differences for curriculum (math vs. science or whatever) and student names and types of interruptions

2:50 - students go home.

3:15 - teachers dismissed. We usually stay to finish returning phone calls, emails, grading papers, setting up for tomorrows classes, researching topics to stay current within the curriculum, arrange for guest speakers, clean up room, searching for resources to assist in teaching content, making copies for the next day and so on.

4:30-ish - we go home.

This is more his schedule than mine. For my typical day up to this year - do the above but add in at least one emergency meeting with sp.ed. student for behavior and/or parent meeting and/or IEP meeting per day. Meet also with various specialists that come to the school who need access to various students and resources. Take phone calls - always in the office and always when I'm in the classroom farthest from it. Work on writing up draft IEPs for upcoming meetings. Ready files for upcoming state audits/visits. Send/receive files to/from other schools/counties/states. Document all of the above. Respond to oodles of emails from the county people, parents, administrators, and other teachers. Send out oodles of emails to above people regarding issues brought up in those emails.

Teaching does occur in there. But as you can see - it gets overshadowed with so much other stuff. On the surface, teaching looks easy - any damn idiot should be able to do it and be grateful for the pittance offered him in the name of a paycheck - but scratch the surface and see how much of "teaching" is chasing your and everyone else's paperwork while trying to convince students an education is important.

So you each work, according to you, about 9 to 9.5 hours a day which includes standing around for 15 to 20 minutes in the morning, a half an hour paid lunch that you sometime work during and an hour to an hour and a half at the end of the day in which you answer emails and do preparation for the next days work.

According to you, your actual work day is 7.5 hours (37.5 hours a week) but for arguments sake, I'll go along with the other hours your talking about. By your statements, you work about 45 to 47.5 hours a week. That's not uncommon among degreed professional employees. For many journalists, nurses, engineers and others with a 4 year degree, it's not uncommon to work 50+ hours in a given week. That includes coming in early, working through lunch and breaks and staying late.

Average hours for those with 15+ years experience and a masters degree, which include supervisor registered nurses, mid to senior engineers, editors, and management jobs, ect, a 49.5 hour work week is considered a light work load. Most of those are working 55 to 60+ hours at the office, have travel or meetings and still take work home. The bottom line is, you're not working longer hours during the day then those with similar education and experience.

You’re definitely not working longer during the year either. Most professionals work about 46 to 48 weeks a year. That's a full year minus paid holidays (on average 2 weeks worth) and vacation/sick time. A teacher works on average, 37 to 38 weeks a year which the standard 180 educational days (36 weeks) plus a week before and a week after school. When you take into account that the average absentee rate is 5.2% for teachers compared to 1.7% for other professionals, teachers are actually working on average 36 weeks a year, or on average, 75 to 80% of what other degreed professionals work.

You’re not working longer hours (less in most cases) and you're defiantly working less time during the year, on average about 1,600 to 1,650 hours a year compared to 2,300 to 2,400 plus for other professionals, so working hours is not a valid argument in how teachers are underpaid.

In fact, when the average hourly rate, $17.50/hour for a beginning teacher in WV, over $26.00/hour for someone with a masters and 15 years experience, teachers don't have it quite as bad as they say the do. And that's not even counting the benefits package which on average runs 8 to 10% better for teachers then other degreed personnel.

I do have a little bit of an idea as to what I'm talking about Sasha.

Aaron wrote:I do have a little bit of an idea as to what I'm talking about Sasha.

I'd bet that Sasha has a whole lot of an idea about what she's talking about.

It's easy to say that some other person has it easier - until you've walked in the other person's shoes .......................

I wonder if Aaron's average other "professionals" would last even one whole day in today's public school classroom.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:I do have a little bit of an idea as to what I'm talking about Sasha.

I'd bet that Sasha has a whole lot of an idea about what she's talking about.

It's easy to say that some other person has it easier - until you've walked in the other person's shoes .......................

I wonder if Aaron's average other "professionals" would last even one whole day in today's public school classroom.

I never said Sasha didn't know what she was talking about. She implied I didn't. She is wrong. If you share her opinion, you are wrong as well.

Whether other professionals can last as a teacher or not is not the topic of this conversation. Teachers pay is. I've shown that they aren't as underpaid as they want to make out. I notice you didn't dispute any of my facts.

Any particular reason?

Whether other professionals can make it as teachers is the topic of antother thread. We could aslo discuss whether teachers can make it in the real world working the hours and dealing with the problems other professionals do in their work.

If you want to start that thread, I've got a great story about a former Chemist from Dow. It's a hoot.

Aaron wrote:Whether other professionals can make it as teachers is the topic of antother thread. We could aslo discuss whether teachers can make it in the real world working the hours and dealing with the problems other professionals do in their work.

As though public schools aren't part of the "real world".

Yeah, you have a "little bit" of an idea about it about it all right- a very little bit.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:I do have a little bit of an idea as to what I'm talking about Sasha.

I'd bet that Sasha has a whole lot of an idea about what she's talking about.

It's easy to say that some other person has it easier - until you've walked in the other person's shoes .......................

I wonder if Aaron's average other "professionals" would last even one whole day in today's public school classroom.

Ziggy,

Why is it that whenever the discussion of teacher compensation and working conditions come up teachers and their supporters are never willing to admit they work far less days and hours per year than other professionals? Why is it the fact they have paid vacation time surrounding the holidays and several weeks off during the summer are never counted as a benefit to them?

You and I both know that if money is truly an issue than most teachers could very easily pick up a job over the summer to supplement their income. Other professionals don't have the ability to do the same because they are actually working all summer. They can work at summer camps, tutoring, at any one of the numerous seasonal occupations so desparate for help if money really is such a huge issue for them.

I think most, if not all, of you know my mother-in-law was recently hospitalized. In her few days there we encountered a number of nurses working double shifts. That's a 16 hour day in a very high stress job with incredible responsibility.

In many states, (I don't know about WV) a registered nurse cannot leave her position until a replacement shows up. Think about that. You can't leave until somebody shows up to replace you. If Sasha needs to leave to pick up her kids from a sitter or daycare or take one of them to a doctor's appointment or soccer practice when that time comes she leaves and goes on about her life.

If Sasha and her husband want to take a family vaction to the Grand Canyon or Bush Gardens or any other place this summer they could have booked their hotel and flight a year ago. They know when their vacation time is guaranteed. I can't help but wonder how many people working in the corporate world wouldn't enjoy such a luxury.

Sure it is fair to discuss all the negative aspects of the job, and we know there are plenty. That doesn't mean you can just ignore the good points and there are many.

Finally I'd like to point out that only an extremely small minority of teachers are staying an hour or more after students are dismissed each school day. Now she may do that, her husband may do that, but most of us have witnessed the massive exodus of teachers from the parking lot almost immediately following student dismissal. A few stay but not all. It's yet another argument in favor of merit pay for teachers.

But how many of those other professional jobs have the interference that educators have in doing our jobs? How many have people who aren't even certified to do that job as their bosses (BOEs)? How many people have the general public claim to be experts in a field simply because they ATTENDED or were EXPOSED to it when growing up?

Personally - we do claim the time with our children (breaks, summers, snow days, holidays) as part of the benefits of teaching. And I do agree that the simplicity of calling in a substitute does increase the ease of abusing sick leave for educators. Not saying have a sub is easy - I spend more time preparing for sub than I do when I'm going to be the one in the classroom - but I do agree that the process is easy to abuse.

As far as extra jobs - I do homebound teaching two nights a week and hubbie stays after school two nights a week for tutoring. And the trip being saved for is to Yellowstone National Park. ;-)

I just personally would like to be paid on par with educators around the country and give WV one less thing to be ranked at the bottom in. I think we could retain/attract the quality/caliber of teachers our students deserve more easily if that were so.

Stephanie, I suspect that Sasha would not deny in principle most of what you are saying above- although it might take some joint wordsmithing for you to both agree on the exact semantics of it.

And I think that several months ago, nearly a year ago, that Sasha agreed on the principle of merit pay- subject to filling in the devilish details.

Stephanie said:

Sure it is fair to discuss all the negative aspects of the job, and we know there are plenty. That doesn't mean you can just ignore the good points and there are many.

And that doesn't mean that in "discussing" them that you can just whitewash over the "bad" points, either.

I just personally would like to be paid on par with educators around the country and give WV one less thing to be ranked at the bottom in. I think we could retain/attract the quality/caliber of teachers our students deserve more easily if that were so.

Sasha,

It is part of living in WV and what your field in seems to matter very little. Chef's here make perhaps 2/3's what they do in RI. My army brat nephew works for the cable company down in Atlanta. They have openings here in WV but when he looked into transferring here to WV he learned he would be making 30% less here in WV than he does down there in Georgia. His father accepted a position in Atlanta when he retired from the army last year because he couldn't find a position in WV making anywhere near the money he was offered in Atlanta or a host of other cities. He networks computers, that sort of thing.

My brother-in-law decided to move to Atlanta rather than return home, where his father, his brother, and his wife's entire family is for the money. You and your husband have made a different choice.

I think the bottom line is if teachers want to make the kind of money teachers in Connecticut make, they need to move to Connecticut. The markets are just too different and while they will surely make much more money, their expenses will be much, much higher and they may just find that their quality of life is reduced in the process.

wvsasha wrote:But how many of those other professional jobs have the interference that educators have in doing our jobs?

That is a problem of incompetent Administrators.

But you Teachers have those "monthly planning meetings", etc., ...... have you addresses those problems in said ....... or done anything at all about getting them corrected?

wvsasha wrote:How many have people who aren't even certified to do that job as their bosses (BOEs)?

The Principal(s) are your immediate Supervisors, the Superintendent is your Boss. They are all Certified I believe, ...... maybe incompetent, but still Certified.

wvsasha wrote:How many people have the general public claim to be experts in a field simply because they ATTENDED or were EXPOSED to it when growing up?

Well GEEEZE, I claim to be, ...... earned a Degree that said I was Certified, ..... and have several hundred hours of "teaching experience", ........ and all I get from you "experts" is a raft of shidt telling me I don't know what I'm talking about.

cheers

But how many of those other professional jobs have the interference that educators have in doing our jobs? How many have people who aren't even certified to do that job as their bosses (BOEs)?

That is one of the many prices we all pay for publicly financed compulsory education. You can't realistically demand the taxpayers fund all of this, compell them to send their children to these institutions under penalty of law and then deny them representation. The taxpayers funding these institutions and the parents supplying the reason for your employment are entitled to have a say in what goes on in those buildings and with those children.

If that's the system you want then you belong working in the private sector, where compensation is typically even lower, btw.

Stephanie wrote:I think the bottom line is if teachers want to make the kind of money teachers in Connecticut make, they need to move to Connecticut. The markets are just too different and while they will surely make much more money, their expenses will be much, much higher and they may just find that their quality of life is reduced in the process.

You seem to suggest that cost of living is relevant to salaries, right?

Last I looked it up, WV was 29th in cost of living. I'd bet you that Sasha would be tickled pink to be paid at the 29th from highest level on the scale of state by state teacher salaries.

ziggy wrote:

Stephanie wrote:I think the bottom line is if teachers want to make the kind of money teachers in Connecticut make, they need to move to Connecticut. The markets are just too different and while they will surely make much more money, their expenses will be much, much higher and they may just find that their quality of life is reduced in the process.

You seem to suggest that cost of living is relevant to salaries, right?

Last I looked it up, WV was 29th in cost of living. I'd bet you that Sasha would be tickled pink to be paid at the 29th from highest level on the scale of state by state teacher salaries.

I'm not the one who brought up comparing salaries with other parts of the nation. Sasha did.

I believe many teachers in this country are grossly over paid and I believe some teachers in this country are underpaid.

I haven't seen the lists of where WV ranks in terms of teacher salaries or cost of living so I won't comment on that. What I will say and will continue to say is that as long as teachers are paid strictly based upon educational leve and years of experience I will continue to oppose across the board raises for teachers.

I am more than happy to seek increases in the salaries of competent, successful teachers who conduct themselves in a professional manner.

ziggy wrote: You seem to suggest that cost of living is relevant to salaries, right?

Last I looked it up, WV was 29th in cost of living. I'd bet you that Sasha would be tickled pink to be paid at the 29th from highest level on the scale of state by state teacher salaries.

Well now, with Joe M's proposed pay increase, ...... not too pink ..... I think.

Average Salaries of Public School Teachers for 2004

Below are average school salaries for teachers by state. Connecticut teachers earn the highest pay with DC teachers a close second. South Dakota has the lowest pay.

1. CONNECTICUT $57,337
2. DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA $57,009
3. CALIFORNIA $56,444
4. NEW JERSEY 55,592
5. NEW YORK 55,181
6. MICHIGAN 54,412
7. ILLINOIS 54,230
8. MASSACHUSETTS 53,181
9. RHODE ISLAND 52,261
10. PENNSYLVANIA 51,835
11. ALASKA 51,736
12. MARYLAND 50,261
13. DELAWARE 49,366
14. OREGON 49,169
15. OHIO 47,482
UNITED STATES 46,752
16. GEORGIA 45,988
17. INDIANA 45,791
18. HAWAII 45,479
19. WASHINGTON 45,434
20. MINNESOTA 45,375
21. VIRGINIA 43,655
22. COLORADO 43,319
23. NORTH CAROLINA 43,211
24. WISCONSIN 42,882
25. NEW HAMPSHIRE 42,689
26. NEVADA 42,254
27. VERMONT 42,007
28. ARIZONA 41,843
29. SOUTH CAROLINA 41,162
30. IDAHO 41,080
31. FLORIDA 40,604
32. TEXAS 40,476
33. TENNESSEE 40,318
34. KENTUCKY 40,240
35. MAINE 39,864
36. WYOMING 39,532
37. IOWA 39,432
38. ARKANSAS 39,314
39. UTAH 38,976
40. KANSAS 38,623
41. WEST VIRGINIA 38,461
42. NEBRASKA 38,352
43. ALABAMA 38,325
44. NEW MEXICO 38,067
45. MISSOURI 38,006
46. LOUISIANA 37,918
47. MONTANA 37,184
48. MISSISSIPPI 35,684
49. NORTH DAKOTA 35,441
50. OKLAHOMA 35,061
51. SOUTH DAKOTA 33,236
MEDIAN 42,254

http://dcjobsource.com/2004teachersalaries.html

Average Salaries of Public School Teachers

Below are starting and average salaries for teachers by state for the 2005-06 school year.

http://dcjobsource.com/teachersalaries.html

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ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:Whether other professionals can make it as teachers is the topic of antother thread. We could aslo discuss whether teachers can make it in the real world working the hours and dealing with the problems other professionals do in their work.

As though public schools aren't part of the "real world".

Yeah, you have a "little bit" of an idea about it about it all right- a very little bit.

I'll put my knowledge up there with yours any day of the week.

Stephanie wrote:Finally I'd like to point out that only an extremely small minority of teachers are staying an hour or more after students are dismissed each school day. Now she may do that, her husband may do that, but most of us have witnessed the massive exodus of teachers from the parking lot almost immediately following student dismissal. A few stay but not all. It's yet another argument in favor of merit pay for teachers.

They're the only ones allowed out BEFORE the buses on my end of the county.

wvsasha wrote:
I just personally would like to be paid on par with educators around the country and give WV one less thing to be ranked at the bottom in. I think we could retain/attract the quality/caliber of teachers our students deserve more easily if that were so.

And I'll back you 100% IF our children are testing in the same ballpark as teachers pay as far as state rank goes.

Caperton got you guys up to 31st nationally. Did our test scores get there?

ziggy wrote:

Stephanie wrote:I think the bottom line is if teachers want to make the kind of money teachers in Connecticut make, they need to move to Connecticut. The markets are just too different and while they will surely make much more money, their expenses will be much, much higher and they may just find that their quality of life is reduced in the process.

You seem to suggest that cost of living is relevant to salaries, right?

Last I looked it up, WV was 29th in cost of living. I'd bet you that Sasha would be tickled pink to be paid at the 29th from highest level on the scale of state by state teacher salaries.

And I'd be tickeld pink if our children were testing 29th in the nation.

wvsasha wrote:But how many of those other professional jobs have the interference that educators have in doing our jobs? How many have people who aren't even certified to do that job as their bosses (BOEs)? How many people have the general public claim to be experts in a field simply because they ATTENDED or were EXPOSED to it when growing up?

BOE's are elected. As Stephanie said, that's the price you pay for using our tax dollars.

Your direct supervisor is your principal. Tell us Sasha becasue I don't know the exact requirements, how does an individual become a principal of a school in West Virginia? I believe one requirement is that person must be a teacher first, correct?

Aaron wrote:BOE's are elected. As Stephanie said, that's the price you pay for using our tax dollars.

Your direct supervisor is your principal. Tell us Sasha becasue I don't know the exact requirements, how does an individual become a principal of a school in West Virginia? I believe one requirement is that person must be a teacher first, correct?

They have to have an education degree. Experience in the classroom can be anything from nothing to minimal to an abundance. The degree weighs the most.

My worst nightmare in college were the education professors who got their BA, straight to the MA, and onto a PhD without spending more than student teaching time in a classroom. How can they "teach how to teach" when they never have?

Many administrators are in similar boats with pretty pathetic paddles.

wvsasha wrote:

Aaron wrote:BOE's are elected. As Stephanie said, that's the price you pay for using our tax dollars.

Your direct supervisor is your principal. Tell us Sasha becasue I don't know the exact requirements, how does an individual become a principal of a school in West Virginia? I believe one requirement is that person must be a teacher first, correct?

They have to have an education degree. Experience in the classroom can be anything from nothing to minimal to an abundance. The degree weighs the most.

My worst nightmare in college were the education professors who got their BA, straight to the MA, and onto a PhD without spending more than student teaching time in a classroom. How can they "teach how to teach" when they never have?

Many administrators are in similar boats with pretty pathetic paddles.

Principals aren't teachers. They're front line managers of multi million dollar 'factories' and they're failing miserably. I honestly believe that is the number one problem in education is there are too many principals that have no idea how to manage the 'business' they've been intrusted with and out children are the one's that suffer the most.

Stephanie wrote: The markets are just too different and while they will surely make much more money, their expenses will be much, much higher and they may just find that their quality of life is reduced in the process.

Considering that I count in my quality of life the number & type of birds at my back yard feeders - I would probably agree that a move to many of the higher paid areas would reduce my quality of life.

However -- I could probably at least get high speed internet without paying usurious rates of satellite internet by moving.

I would also agree that until WV value education higher - not much is going to change.

There are alot of good qualities about living in WV that can't be quantified into a paycheck. But that still doesn't mean that we shouldn't be paid commensurate with our abilities but that leads back into merit pay and it'll be a cold day in hell before that ever gets past the unions. And that's funny to me given how little real power the teacher union(s) has over the WV government. The unions can't even agree to talk to each other - how can they present unified requests/demands when that's the norm?

wvsasha wrote:They have to have an education degree. Experience in the classroom can be anything from nothing to minimal to an abundance. The degree weighs the most.

I want to rephrase something without just editing the original post since Aaron already responded to it -- administrators must have an Administrative degree above the original education degree. This puts them at the master's level of degrees and education.

Many are also attempting doctorate level courses as well.