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Cross species mating

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Post by SamCogar Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:47 am

Several rare varieties of staghorn coral have begun mating across species lines and are creating surprisingly robust hybrids, according to a new study; researchers believe the unusual step is an effort to adapt to changing ocean conditions and avoid extinction. The findings are an unexpected piece of promising news about coral reefs, which usually make the headlines for their potential fate as one of the first victims of global warming.

Coral reefs around the world are under pressure from pollution and gradually warming oceans, and researchers have worried that rare species are particularly vulnerable to extinction. But in the case of these staghorns, the new study shows that when faced with a shortage of mates of their own kind, these rare corals have cast a wider net and started cross-breeding with other coral species, producing hybrids. “It pushes the boundaries of our traditional understanding of species,” said a researcher, Zoe Richards. “They are being a little promiscuous” [Sydney Morning-Herald].

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/10/22/rare-corals-crossbreeding-ways-may-stave-off-extinction/

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Post by Stephanie Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:00 pm

Thanks for posting this, Sam.

It is good news, indeed!
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Post by TerryRC Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:40 am

Several rare varieties of staghorn coral have begun mating across species lines and are creating surprisingly robust hybrids,

The main definition of "species" is a group able to mate and produce viable offspring.

If could be these different corals are actually from one, highly polymorphic species that was mistakenly described as multiple species.

It happens with insects all of the time.

Regardless, this is interesting and good news. Much of the ocean's diversity is found on reefs.

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Post by bmd Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:12 pm

TerryRC wrote:If could be these different corals are actually from one, highly polymorphic species that was mistakenly described as multiple species.

Actually, this has been the contention of several coral specialists for quite some time now. One of the problems with this particular group is that it is very difficult to get most coral to reproduce in captivity. That, and their habit of only spawning on one (or a very few) nights each year, makes defining reproductive isolation quite problematic in many reef corals.
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Post by SamCogar Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:41 pm

.

YADA, ....... YADA, ....... YADA ..............

For the study, recently published in the journal PLoS ONE, marine biologists examined the genetics of three rare Caribbean corals. They found a higher level of genetic diversity within each species than expected, indicating that the corals have been cross-breeding. Some of the hybrids were even found in marginal habitats such as very deep or extremely shallow water, suggesting the coral were developing new traits allowing them to push into new environments…. “This is good news, to the extent that it suggests that corals may have evolved genetic strategies for survival in unusual niches and may prove tougher to exterminate than many people feared,” Dr Richards said [Australian Associated Press].

Researchers don’t yet know how this adaptation came about, and will continue to study the hybrids in an attempt to solve the puzzle.

lol! Cross species mating 46059 lol! Cross species mating 46059 lol!


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Post by bmd Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:42 pm

I'm not sure what the point to your last post was, Sam. In the previous post I was simply trying to put this finding in a bit of historical context. Defining Acropora spp. (staghorn and elkhorn corals) has been the subject of quite a bit of debate for a number of years now. There are some researchers who consider this genus to consist of a relatively small number of species complexes, with only limited spacial and temporal reproductive isolation.

For instance, THIS paper addressed some of these very questions back in 2001. I first heard of people looking at this sort of thing in Acropora in the mid 1990's, so there are probably some older citations out there, somewhere.

Your citation does put a slightly different spin on things. I was just trying to point out that this is not an entirely new finding.
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Post by TerryRC Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:24 am

Sam doesn't have a point.

He just hates it when people know more about a subject than he does.

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Post by SamCogar Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:29 am

bmd wrote:Your citation does put a slightly different spin on things. I was just trying to point out that this is not an entirely new finding.

Well bmd, maybe you should contact the publisher of PLoS ONE .... and file a complaint.

For the study, recently published in the journal PLoS ONE, marine biologists examined the genetics of three rare Caribbean corals.

Maybe you could cite the credentials and experiences of TRC, along with his comments, ...... to justify your complaint and demand they retract that story because of bogus claims and misinformation.

cheers

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Post by TerryRC Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:39 am

Maybe you could cite the credentials and experiences of TRC, along with his comments, ...... to justify your complaint and demand they retract that story because of bogus claims and misinformation.

Sam, can you even define the word "species"?

Are german shepards and dachshunds the same species?

If these corals are mating and producing viable offspring, then they must be the same species, by definition.

Give me some more, Sam. I enjoy schooling you.

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Post by bmd Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:38 am

TerryRC wrote:Maybe you could cite the credentials and experiences of TRC, along with his comments, ...... to justify your complaint and demand they retract that story because of bogus claims and misinformation.

Sam, can you even define the word "species"?

Are german shepards and dachshunds the same species?

If these corals are mating and producing viable offspring, then they must be the same species, by definition.

Give me some more, Sam. I enjoy schooling you.

Terry,

Don't be too hard on Sam. I doubt that neither he, nor the corals, have read much Mayr.

Actually, all kidding aside, part of the problem here is that further one gets from vertebrates, phylogenetically speaking, the less well the Biological Species Concept (BSC) seems to work. Many phylogenists (botanist, for example) pretty much ignore the BSC all together. In fact, put a diverse group of phylogenists in a room, liquor them up a bit, and a heated argument about species concepts is likely to ensue.
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Post by TerryRC Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:47 am

I sometimes see similar things at ESA (Ent Soc of Am.) meetings.

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Post by SamCogar Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:04 am

Are both you dumbasses done yet. geek geek

I noticed you quit patting each other on the back ..... or was that a "circle jerk" you were conducting? Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

I suggest that both you read this again, ...... that is, after your last "fixes" have completely worn off.

Several rare varieties of staghorn coral have begun mating across species lines

Now I know it will be quite taxing on your mental abilities, if not impossible, but ya'll should really try to figure out what the author meant when he/she stated "species lines".

Give it a try anyway, ....... and if you can't figure it out or get the answer from someone else, .....I'll begrudenly explain it to you.


Cross species mating 197570 Cross species mating 197570 Cross species mating 197570 Cross species mating 197570


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Post by bmd Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:04 pm

What is your problem, Sam?
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Post by SamCogar Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:57 pm

bmd wrote:What is your problem, Sam?

AH SO, ..... you figured it out did you little man?

Now you are trying to CYA for your stupidity in siding with TRC and his stupidity ..... by implying that I am the one with a problem. lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!

You have an adverse cultural problem, little boy, and one that proves detrimental to your ability for acquiring intelligence ...... and thus the reason it is not easily corrected.


Cross species mating 33948 Cross species mating 33948 Cross species mating 33948 Cross species mating 33948


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Post by bmd Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:31 pm

Sam,

Calm down a little. At the beginning of this thread, you cited an on-line paper that looks at "hybridization" in Acopora spp. (i.e., staghorn and elkhorn corals). TerryRC then hypothesized that this apparent "hybridization" could just be different morphologies from one (or a few) highly variable species (polymorphic species) mating. Although Terry didn't explicitly state it as such, there are actually two possibilities within that hypothesis: A) that these putative "species" are really different developmental outcomes within one (or a few) phenotypically (morphologically) plastic species, and that there really isn't much, if any, reproductive isolation among the morphs; and B) the the population genetic structure of Acopora spp. is such that what appear to be "species" now are not very reproductively isolated from one another, such that there is some, but not complete, reproductive isolation. These two hypotheses are not mutually exclusive.

I pointed out that Terry was correct in that earlier workers had demonstrated limited reproductive isolation among Acropora spp. I wasn't saying that the paper you cite is wrong, or that they chose emphasize the potential for niche-shifting that this "hybridization" is not a valid hypothesis; I was simply pointing out that this is not the first observation of this type in this clade. In fact, it is very similar to the way botanists view plants all the time, and perhaps for similar reasons.
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Post by bmd Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:15 pm

Sam,

Here's a paper that looks at the phenomenon of hybridization in plants. Their point is somewhat similar, from an evolutionary perspective:

Minsung Kim, Min-Long Cui, Pilar Cubas, Amanda Gillies, Karen Lee, Mark A. Chapman, Richard J. Abbott, and Enrico Coen. 2008. Regulatory Genes Control a Key Morphological and Ecological Trait Transferred Between Species. Science 14 November 2008: 1116-1119.

You'll probably have to hoof it down to your local library to look at the full article, unless you already have online access to Science.
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Post by SamCogar Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:05 pm

YADA, .... YADA, ..... YADA, ...... BULLSHIT.

bmd, read again what TRC was actually hypothesizing in his 1st post, to wit:

TerryRC wrote:Several rare varieties of staghorn coral have begun mating across species lines and are creating surprisingly robust hybrids,

The main definition of "species" is a group able to mate and produce viable offspring.

If could be these different corals are actually from one, highly polymorphic species that was mistakenly described as multiple species.

bmd, TRC was actually hypothesizing that I didn't know what the hell the definition of "species" was ......... and that the researchers studying the coral didn’t know one species from another.

While different species of the Equidae family can interbreed, offspring are almost always sterile. Nonetheless, horse/donkey hybrids are popular for their durability and vigor. A mule is the offspring of a jack (male donkey) and a mare (female horse). The much rarer successful mating of a male horse and a female donkey produces a hinny.

Almost always, .......... not always sterile.

So yes, sometimes their offspring are viable.

And if donkeys and horses can do it, ........ why not corals?

,

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Post by bmd Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:18 pm

Sam,

The biological species concept (BSC) was developed by Ernst Mayr, an ornithologist and the preeminent evolutionary biologist of the twentieth century. The BSC works very well in vertebrates, particularly in birds, but it often fails to describe the phylogenetic relationships among populations of non-vertebrate animals and is very unsatisfactory for describing such relationships among plants, protists, and prokariotes.

There is also the problem that the BSC relies on reproductive isolation in the wild. For most groups, reproductive isolation is assumed from other observations, primarily morphological distinction. This has been a big problem in certain marine snails, known as muricids. Along the coast of the Northeastern Pacific there used to be dozens of described species within the genus Nucella (although it was then considered part of the genus Thais, and before that the genus Purpura). This clade was thought to have many slight different, but morphologically distinct, species; with each species having a relatively limited geographic range. In fact, one early malacologist claimed that he could tell the embayment from which a specimen originated simply by looking at its shell. Field guides had page after page of these shells, with detailed descriptions of how to tell them apart.

By the 1950's, most workers had concluded that many, if not most, of these species were simply the result of ecophenotypic variation. In other words, there was one, or a few, highly polymorphic species, with the individuals in each locale responding (vis-a-vis their shell shape) to their particular environment. Now there are only a handful of recognized Nucella spp. in this region (N. lima, N. emarginata, N. ostrina, N. lamellosa, N. lapillus, and N. canalicualata). This is the sort of thing to which TerryRC is eluding.
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Post by SheikBen Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:46 pm

Do you suppose that the labeling of these "highly polymorphic species" could be a bit arbitrary?

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Post by bmd Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:54 pm

SheikBen wrote:Do you suppose that the labeling of these "highly polymorphic species" could be a bit arbitrary?

Not exactly arbitrary. More like premature. Scientific hypotheses and theories are always subject to modification as new data become available.
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Post by SamCogar Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:14 pm

bmd wrote:Sam,

This is the sort of thing to which TerryRC is eluding.

And why in gawds name was he eluding to it in replying to my post when he has exclaimed dozens of time that I don't know shit from shinola about anything and therefore I am incapable of understanding anything he post?

HUH, .. HUH, ..... bmd, ....... answer me that.

bmd, you are the only other member of this form that would know what he was eluding to, ....... but his post wasn't in reply to one of yours ..... nor was it addressed to your attention.

TRC doesn't know a damn thing about those researchers yet he questions their ability by implying they don't know what the hell they are doing.

Don't bother answering the above, ..... it is well known that TRC is pissed off at the world because he is an under-achiever and tries to cover it up by replying to most every one's post by stating negative, condeming, critical, insulting, demeaning and/or stupid and asinine remarks.

TRC seldom if ever contributes anything of value nor does he ever engage in a civil, sensible conversation with anyone.

He finds fault with anything anyone posts. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

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Post by bmd Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:34 pm

I gotta tell ya, Sam, I really wonder why I bothered to try to get you to understand.

Terry's initial comments were right on the mark, and I concurred and gave you citations from the literature to back up his speculation. Yet all you can do is attack anything anyone else has to say on the topic.

Fine. I'm done with it.
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Post by Stephanie Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:44 pm

Sam,

Terry is not an "underachiever". If I posted my honest thoughts on the situation, I doubt that either of you would have anything to do with me any more.
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Post by SamCogar Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:50 am

Steph, you are probably right.

underachiever on the Web:

a student who does not perform as well as expected or as well as the IQ indicates


Cross species mating 197570 Cross species mating 197570 Cross species mating 197570


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Post by TerryRC Sat Nov 22, 2008 9:54 am

underachiever on the Web:

a student who does not perform as well as expected or as well as the IQ indicates


Sam has nothing but personal attacks. I have learned to live with it. So must anyone that dares to correct him.

C'est la vie.

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