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A picture is worth a thousand words...

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Post by Keli Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:20 pm

Klick Here
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Post by Stephanie Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:38 pm

I think you have too much time on your hands. lol!
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Post by Keli Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:04 pm

Stephanie wrote:I think you have too much time on your hands. lol!

Seriously, I hope that Hillary wins the Iowa Caucuses, NH, Super Tuesday and the Democrat nomination.
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Post by Stephanie Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:20 pm

Keli wrote:
Stephanie wrote:I think you have too much time on your hands. lol!

Seriously, I hope that Hillary wins the Iowa Caucuses, NH, Super Tuesday and the Democrat nomination.

Nothing else will unite the GOP like Hillary winning the nomination.
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Post by ziggy Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:26 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Keli wrote:
Stephanie wrote:I think you have too much time on your hands. lol!

Seriously, I hope that Hillary wins the Iowa Caucuses, NH, Super Tuesday and the Democrat nomination.

Nothing else will unite the GOP like Hillary winning the nomination.

And just think, the GOP accusess the left of being motivated by hatred.
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Post by SheikBen Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:03 pm

Well, is it that the Right "hates" Hillary or just really, REALLY, doesn't want her elected?

I do not hate Hillary. I think I've mentioned before, and sincerely, that I wish her well. I do not hate her. I pray that she would have a great and happy life. I just don't want her to be President.

What I have noticed in talking to family is that Hillary really does have some negative press. My uncle and aunt, who were first time Democrats EVER (and old great grandpa Baker is probably doing flips in discuss in that ground) in 2004 say they could not tolerate a Hillary presidency. I don't know how indicative they are of the general population, but I understand that Miss Clinton has some unfavorable ratings out there. You either love her or you hate her, and that does not bode well for a two party system in which you have to win over some middle of the road types in a Presidential election. I still say she's the ultimate frontrunner, but she is darned vulnerable.

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Post by Stephanie Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:22 pm

SheikBen wrote:Well, is it that the Right "hates" Hillary or just really, REALLY, doesn't want her elected?

I do not hate Hillary. I think I've mentioned before, and sincerely, that I wish her well. I do not hate her. I pray that she would have a great and happy life. I just don't want her to be President.

What I have noticed in talking to family is that Hillary really does have some negative press. My uncle and aunt, who were first time Democrats EVER (and old great grandpa Baker is probably doing flips in discuss in that ground) in 2004 say they could not tolerate a Hillary presidency. I don't know how indicative they are of the general population, but I understand that Miss Clinton has some unfavorable ratings out there. You either love her or you hate her, and that does not bode well for a two party system in which you have to win over some middle of the road types in a Presidential election. I still say she's the ultimate frontrunner, but she is darned vulnerable.

I think of my feelings toward Hillary Clinton and I realize just how irrational I can sometimes be. I'm not sure I hate her......hate requires so much energy. But I will be honest and tell you all I really don't like her. She makes me nuts.

Still I don't wish her harm. I don't want her to suffer and die or anything. I just want her to lose this election and any future ones. Does that mean I hate her? I don't think so.

I do believe nothing will unite the GOP quite like Hillary winning the nomination, not because I think my fellow party members all hate her. I'm sure some do just as I'm certain there are an awful lot of Democrats who hate Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney. No, I say that because Hillary Clinton is the candidate the overwhelming majority of Republicans I know, or am acquainted with, just can't abide.

Most of us figure we can tough out an Obama presidency, or ride out an Edwards administration. We just can't begin to imagine how we will cope with a minimum of 4 more years of that shrill, pompous, arrogant, disingenuous woman in our faces day after day.

I honestly think I'd rather have my spleen removed with a grapefruit spoon.

affraid
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Post by Aaron Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:36 am

Stephanie wrote:
I think of my feelings toward Hillary Clinton and I realize just how irrational I can sometimes be. I'm not sure I hate her......hate requires so much energy. But I will be honest and tell you all I really don't like her. She makes me nuts.

Still I don't wish her harm. I don't want her to suffer and die or anything. I just want her to lose this election and any future ones. Does that mean I hate her? I don't think so.

I do believe nothing will unite the GOP quite like Hillary winning the nomination, not because I think my fellow party members all hate her. I'm sure some do just as I'm certain there are an awful lot of Democrats who hate Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney. No, I say that because Hillary Clinton is the candidate the overwhelming majority of Republicans I know, or am acquainted with, just can't abide.

Most of us figure we can tough out an Obama presidency, or ride out an Edwards administration. We just can't begin to imagine how we will cope with a minimum of 4 more years of that shrill, pompous, arrogant, disingenuous woman in our faces day after day.

I honestly think I'd rather have my spleen removed with a grapefruit spoon.

affraid

Hillary doesn't scare me near as much as Edwards does. He's an upscale Dennis Kucinich and he'll do whatever or say whatever to get elected. When I think of him, I have "Johnny Smith" visions. affraid
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Post by ziggy Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:41 am

SheikBen wrote:Well, is it that the Right "hates" Hillary or just really, REALLY, doesn't want her elected?

And is it that the left "hates' Bush, or just really, REALLY thinks he is a lousy president?
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Post by SheikBen Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:31 pm

ziggy wrote:
SheikBen wrote:Well, is it that the Right "hates" Hillary or just really, REALLY, doesn't want her elected?

And is it that the left "hates' Bush, or just really, REALLY thinks he is a lousy president?

Zig,

In many cases, it's the former. I asked my mother on a car ride whether she thought Bush was an idiot or was malevolent. She said that she thought he was malevolent. I asked her why, and she gave me a number of examples that could have just as easily been bad judgement as malicious intention. Just as the conversation was about to get juicy, a cop pulledme over for speeding.

When I listen to Air America radio, they are always wishing ill upon Bush or accusing him of some great evil, rather than merely suggesting that his politics are off and his party should lose re-election. While neither my mom nor Air America can be considered spokesmen for the American left, I do see a certain degree of vitriol directed at Bush of a certain, well, bitterness, that I do not see from the right, even towards Hillary. I may have heard from a handful of conservatives on radio or tv that Hillary should go to jail--I can hear that Bush should be sent up the river at least once a day on Air America.

Of course, none of this has any bearing at all on whether Republicans or Democrats are better able to lead this country. Just because segments of both sides, regardless of which side's segment is the larger, think and speak with bitterness and ill-wishes, does not mean that one side is necessarily better or worse for the country,

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Post by ziggy Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:49 pm

Well, a bunch of 'em on the "old" forum used the "you just hate Bush" mantra to avoid either defending or critiquing the Bush White House.

It was a simple-minded way of diverting political criticism away from the bungling office holder and toward the accuser. And we can expect them to "bring it on" here, too.

But if we want to see real hatred at work, if Hillary gets the nomination, or even if she carries a state or two in the primaries, just watch Keli do his hate dance. It will exceed any of the "burp and fart" antics he did on the old WVWISE forums when Bill Clinton was president.
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Post by SheikBen Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:04 pm

Hi Zig,

I disagree. There is genuine criticism on the left that falls far short of hatred. One can have a low opinion of the war without hating Bush, and I don't think anyone on this board would disagree with that. there are a great many reasons I don't approve of the job that Bush is doing (I think leaving Ramos and Campeon, border agents, in prison is ludicrous, then there is the excessive spending and pork that Bush has just now noticed, trade deficits et al.) and there are a great many reasons short of hatred that I would nevertheless disagree with (one can disagree on abortion rights without hating the person with whom you disagree).

Let me say that I believe Bush hatred is a disease and I really believe that it has been detrimental to the opposition. There are a hundred reasons not to go to war, but the left has settled largely on the claim that Bush knowingly lied to the public. Rather than debate the preemptive war doctrine, or the conditions under which it is right to go to war, or our involvement with the middle east in general, the opposition has largely resorted to saying that Bush has "betrayed the country" and "ought to be impeached."

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Post by SheikBen Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:08 pm

Zig,

Let me also say that there is funny criticism that is short of hatred. For example, I saw a bumper sticker with Bush's face that said "like a rock, only dumber." That was funny. Granted it was offensive to Bush, but it wished no harm on the man, but was rather a statement of low opinion on the man. I have also bought a friend of mine a Hillary Clinton nutcracker.

I like the bumper sticker with the Bush quote that says something to the effect of "our enemies never stop thinking of ways to destroy our country, and neither do we."

So I'm not saying that we cannot disagree forcefully and even poke fun at those with whom we disagree. I find 400 dollar haircuts (or whatever they cost) really, really funny from a "man of labor." But my overall position is that people need to really learn how to wish people well even if we do not like them. And that is the spirit that is so lacking from the current discourse.

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Post by Stephanie Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:16 pm

ziggy wrote:Well, a bunch of 'em on the "old" forum used the "you just hate Bush" mantra to avoid either defending or critiquing the Bush White House.

It was a simple-minded way of diverting political criticism away from the bungling office holder and toward the accuser. And we can expect them to "bring it on" here, too.

But if we want to see real hatred at work, if Hillary gets the nomination, or even if she carries a state or two in the primaries, just watch Keli do his hate dance. It will exceed any of the "burp and fart" antics he did on the old WVWISE forums when Bill Clinton was president.

Ziggy, my friend, are you for real? Think about what you just said about some of the Republicans, or conservatives, in the old forum then I want you to think about some of the kinds of things some members have said about "that Booosh" or that "Boosh Bunch" etc.

I want you to look back to a couple of days ago in this new forum when Sherman, a man I happen to be fond of, posted that he didn't have a problem with One Citizen. Remember One Citizen? The man who repeatedly called several of us "moron ditto monkeys" and "Iraqi baby killers" and a litany of other very hateful terms. Now mind you, it wasn't enough he hated President Bush, and let's remember for a moment that at this point in time he is the President of our country. No, it wasn't enough to spew venom and hatred about "that Boosh Bunch" or the "neocons". Hell no, he had to go and attack everyone who ever supported Bush at any time, or even supported some position our President took on a particular issue.

Who stood up for us? Remember, he wasn't just attacking and maligning those members on the extreme right. He was attacking me. He was attacking Jimmy, one of the most thoughtful, considerate and intelligent people not only in the old forum, but that I have encountered anywhere. Only you, you alone made an effort to defend our character and so that wingnut went after you.

I'm bringing this up because 1C is not alone. People like me, people who are politically active and working on behalf of a Republican candidate or for the GOP are routinely assaulted in such a fashion. We have grown to expect such abuse from some elements of the left.

So, before you go singling out the Republicans, or conservatives, or even "neocons", remember, there is enough blame to go around. Sure seems to me like there is plenty of hatred and venom brewing on the left and the proof is all around us, particularly on the internet. Just take a good look at the Daily Kos or moveon.org.
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Post by ohio county Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:05 am

Bush hatred is equally as mentally unbalanced as Clinton hatred. But there is a weird commonality: Clinton, the "new" democrat appropriated welfare reform and a balanced budget. He seized the middle and stole his opponents' agenda. He was brilliant. Or unprincipled. It was just shrewd and calculated enough that he managed to get elected to two terms. And the republicans despised him for it. So much so that they actually pursued impeachment.

Bush, on the other hand, has strolled in proclaiming "compassionate" conservatism conceding implicitly that conservatives are not compassionate. He immediately teamed up with Teddy Kennedy to foist No Child Left Behind upon us. He ceded his opponents' agenda by throwing money at our national education problem and created a huge federal bureaucracy. This was neither compassionate nor conservative. Similarly, it was just unprincipled enough to capture a huge portion of the "middle" vote and grant him two terms. What's more, the democrats would impeach him in a heartbeat if they only had a majority wider than the skin of their teeth. Hell, no, we don't support him - outside of his tax cuts he hasn't done anything we want. At least we don't have to pay lip service to adultery and the words "blow job" are thankfully not in our lexicon.

Bush and Clinton are defective mirror images of one another. They both took their opponents' agendas, enacted them, engendered fierce hatred and division.

That the issue is raised and the charge is leveled here where we have shown a willingness to be open and civil is proof of that. That it creates more divisiveness and harsh feelings is further proof. It is true enough but what a strange venue in which to raise it! Maybe it has been too peaceful here. Maybe we're all hankering for an argument.
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Post by SheikBen Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:26 am

Ohio,

Far from it! I love this new forum! Civility is refreshingly excellent.

I would add the addition of two excellent supreme court justices to Bush's accomplishments (the other being the Bush tax cuts). I am also fascinated by your interpretation of Bush and Clinton "stealing" their opponents agendas or thunder or what have you. Clinton raised taxes before welfare reform, and I believe that the Welfare Reform Act was 1996, after the Contract with America and the Republican takeover of 1994. I'm not saying that you are completely off, but I offer that Clinton, as President, signed the Welfare Reform Act primarily because the Republicans in Congress acted as effectively as they did, rather than co-opted them.

As for No Child Left Behind, I have to say that I am torn. As a homeschooling parent (OK it's easy as young as my kids are) I have a low view of public education in general. I agree that the national government should be the least involved of the stages of government, on this matter and on most everything else except defense. (I get a big kick out of telling my students that, according to the state Constitution, they are all members of the state militia and Rod "great hair" Blagojevich is their commander in chief.) At the same time, high schools do turn out "graduates" from time to time who cannot read, write, or effectively communicate. That is a scandal and there needs to be some way to hold the schools accountable, as they are a monopoly. I wish there were a better response than standardized testing, and if there is, I'd really like to hear it. Otherwise, the NEA will protect teachers to great levels of incompetence and non-attention (I know, I'm a member of it:).

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Post by ohio county Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:31 am

Your point is well-taken - I think that Clinton vetoed welfare reform at least once before he signed it. But by appearing to embrace it, as it were, he was fully justified in claiming, as he did, to have ended welfare "as we know it".
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Post by SheikBen Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:39 am

How are things in Wheeling, by the way? It is one of my favorite cities. I was at the Italian American festival when I heard the song "Achy Breaky Heart," on the accordion, in Italian.

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Post by ohio county Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:53 am

Wheeling is in a state of flux. The Legislature passed a bill that allows home rule for a handful of cities. I'm thinking Wheeling has the best chance to realize it and will get the most benefit from it. The downtown continues to deteriorate. If the buildings are so structurally unsound what can the sewer and water lines look like? We still have clay pipe in my neighborhood for carrying off rain water.

On I-70 the county developed a hill top (okay to develop but not to mine?). It's going great guns but makes it even harder for the city to develop anything. Why concentrate on brown fields when you have green fields within driving distance? A couple of long-time stalwart businesses are moving out there.

But life is good out-the-pike and the Italians still come into town once a year, block traffic, play bocce, and mangle bad songs.
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Post by SamCogar Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:47 am

I still say Bill Clinton was a “default” President.

George H Bush was doing good until the public got PO’ed following his famous statement of “Read my lips, …. no more taxes.”

Well, the economy was in a “slide” and he raised taxes …… and that didn’t help. And the 92’ election was coming up ……. and nothing looked good on the horizon …… and neither Party really wanted to “win the White House” because they knew/remembered what happened to Herbert Hoover and neither wanted to be in power with the economy heading for the septic tank.

To solve their problem the Democrats nominated a “no-body” from Arkansas, figuring he will surely lose to George H and the Republicans would have to “suffer the public’s wrath” for the next 4 years. But the public was still PO’ed at George H, and they liked the looks of “Slick Willy”, and the way he talked, ……. and they voted him in as President.

And “Slick Willy” was a coasting along as President …….. when the DotCom “bubble” started expanding , ……. catching all the politicos by surprise. People were being hired, companies were being formed, products and services were selling like crazy ……. and taxe$ came rolling in by the truckload.

And President Clinton got all the credit …….. and he didn’t do a damn thing to deserve it. And even Al Gore got part of the credit because the public thought he invented the Internet which made it all possible.

And because of this, the Republican politicos hated Clinton et al, ….. and when George W “out Democrated” Al Gore, …… the Democrat politicos hated Bush and all Republicans.

Bush and Clinton are defective mirror images of one another. They both took their opponents' agendas, enacted them, engendered fierce hatred and division.

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Post by Aaron Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:58 am

I remember the Dem's courted Jay heavily in 91 but he didn't think Bush I could be beat. He put his stock on 96. Didn't quite work out like he planned, huh.
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Post by ohio county Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:33 pm

I don't think Jay presents a very presidential visage. Speaking extemporaneously he just seems dense and inarticulate. I'm in debt to Jay Rockefeller for a college degree but I just don't think he's very smart.
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