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Is atheism a religion or belief system?

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Post by Stephanie Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:18 pm

Where would that leave the atheists? They believe there is no god. What about religions who believe in multiple gods like pagans? They can't all be "right", but Zigster is correct when he says the can all be "wrong".

Now you have my variety of agnostic. We don't know and don't care because we very seriously doubt it matters one inkling of a wee little bit. What difference does it make who is "right"? I will say this, the god of the Torah and the Bible & the Koran sounds way to vengeful and mean to me, so I hope they're all wrong. I don't like the idea of having to come back so I sure hope those Buddhists and Wiccans are wrong.

Atheism sometimes does seem very appealing....
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Post by Aaron Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:26 pm

Less then 1/2 of 1% of the population (incidentally, that's about the same percentage of Christians who complained about the sign in cocko mungo, Cali by the way) identify as atheists. They get put in a black, sound proof box with an eternity supply of Rohypnol.
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Post by bmd Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:49 pm

Aaron wrote:Less then 1/2 of 1% of the population ... identify as atheists.

Where did you get that proportion, Aaron?

Most of the estimates I have seen on this subject are between 5 and 30% (depending on the country and the exact wording of the survey), and quite a bit higher if one includes atheistic philosophies/religions, such as Buddhism, etc.
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Post by Aaron Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:17 pm

bmd wrote:
Aaron wrote:Less then 1/2 of 1% of the population ... identify as atheists.

Where did you get that proportion, Aaron?

Most of the estimates I have seen on this subject are between 5 and 30% (depending on the country and the exact wording of the survey), and quite a bit higher if one includes atheistic philosophies/religions, such as Buddhism, etc.

I posted the link last Saturday and ask you on a couple of different occasions if you had any other evidence of christian complaints. You never responded.

The percentage comes from the number of complaints (90) divided by the number of Christians (130K) in Cooko Mungo. The 130K comes from the fact taht 75% of the population (175K) identify as Christisans.

Actually it's lower then 1/2 of 1% but when you get to where you have to count to the thousands, I think what I said depicts the truth. The sign wasn't taken down because of Christians but because of the city and the sign company.

The city got 90 phone calls and called the sign company and ask them to take it down. They did. As I said last Saturday, your beef is with the sign company and/or the city, not christians.

According to Redevelopment Director Linda Daniels, City Hall had received 90 calls of complaint since Wednesday.

"We contacted the sign company and asked if there was a way to get it removed," Daniels said.

source

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Post by bmd Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:18 pm

Nay, Nay, Kemosabe.

I was referring to the proportion of the population who, you allege, identify themselves as atheist.
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Post by bmd Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:35 pm

Incidentally, the issue is NOT how many complaints were received at the Rancho Cucamonga city hall. The issue is whether the city GOVERNMENT should have pressured the billboard company to remove a legal message, paid for by a private group.
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Post by Aaron Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:00 am

bmd wrote:Nay, Nay, Kemosabe.

I was referring to the proportion of the population who, you allege, identify themselves as atheist.

Click on #3 when you open the source below.

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: This is a highly disparate group and not a single religion. Although atheists are a small subset of this grouping, this category is not synonymous with atheism. People who specify atheism as their religious preference actually make up less than one-half of one percent of the population in many countries where much large numbers claim no religious preference, such as the United States (13.2% nonreligious according to ARIS study of 2001) and Australia (15% nonreligious).

source
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Post by Aaron Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:01 am

bmd wrote:Incidentally, the issue is NOT how many complaints were received at the Rancho Cucamonga city hall. The issue is whether the city GOVERNMENT should have pressured the billboard company to remove a legal message, paid for by a private group.

They didn't pressure anyone. The inquired as to having the sign removed, and the sign company took it down. As I've said 3 times now, your beef is with the sign company.

When you responded and posted the picture for the first time, you made a statement about christians being soooooooooo tolerant of the sign. You were wrong.
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Post by bmd Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:21 am

Aaron wrote:
bmd wrote:Incidentally, the issue is NOT how many complaints were received at the Rancho Cucamonga city hall. The issue is whether the city GOVERNMENT should have pressured the billboard company to remove a legal message, paid for by a private group.

They didn't pressure anyone. The inquired as to having the sign removed, and the sign company took it down. As I've said 3 times now, your beef is with the sign company.

When you responded and posted the picture for the first time, you made a statement about christians being soooooooooo tolerant of the sign. You were wrong.

When a governmental entity contacts a business, over which that entity has regulatory control, and "asks" them, "How do we get this removed?" (or words to that effect), THAT is pressure. It is unconstitutional, and I sincerely hope that the city of Rancho Cucamonga, and any officials who participated in said pressure, get sued to the absolute highest limit possible.

The billboard company should be held equally liable; they broke a valid contract by discriminating against a group on the basis of their personal beliefs (i.e., for purely religious reasons). That is bad enough. But for a city government to participate in such discriminatory behavior is unconscionable.
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Post by Aaron Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:45 pm

And your beef is with the city of cooko mungo and/or the sign company, yes!!!
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Post by bmd Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:54 pm

Aaron wrote:And your beef is with the city of cooko mungo and/or the sign company, yes!!!

AND the intolerant christians who complained in the first place.
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Post by bmd Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:56 pm

BTW, Aaron. Why do you insist of changing everyone's/everything's name?
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Post by Aaron Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:09 pm

Is the ability to express your thoughts and complain one of our constitutional rights BMD? Didn't those 90 Christians have a fundamental right to call in and express their opinion? Or is that right based on subject matter and religious topics are now off limits?

Once again, your beef is with the city and the sign companies.

Of course, if you have a complaint with Christians, you can always take a leisurely drive to Lake Forest and express your thoughts to Pastor Warren at Saddleback Church and he can forward them to the President when he gives his invocation at the inauguration.
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Post by bmd Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:32 pm

Aaron wrote:Is the ability to express your thoughts and complain one of our constitutional rights BMD? Didn't those 90 Christians have a fundamental right to call in and express their opinion? Or is that right based on subject matter and religious topics are now off limits?

When a group decide that others should be denied their right of self expression, and pressure the government to do so, then they have earned my ire. Christians are free to buy advertising space to promote their views, why shouldn't atheists be free to do likewise?


Aaron wrote:Of course, if you have a complaint with Christians, you can always take a leisurely drive to Lake Forest and express your thoughts to Pastor Warren at Saddleback Church and he can forward them to the President when he gives his invocation at the inauguration.

There are about 50 miles of SoCal freeways between my house and Lake Forest. Leisurely drive it ain't.
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Post by Aaron Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:20 pm

They didn't pressure the government to do so. They exercised their 1st amendment right to petition the government for a redress of government. It is as basic as freedom of speech, to assemble or the free exercise of one's religion.

Or do you support denying that right to christians as the free exercise clause has been?

The right to petition is the freedom of individuals (and sometimes groups and corporations) to petition their government for a correction or repair of some form of injustice without fear of punishment for the same. Although often overlooked in favor of other more famous freedoms and sometimes taken for granted[1], many other civil liberties are enforceable against the government only by exercising this basic right,[2] making it a fundamental right in both representative democracies (to protect public participation)[1] and liberal democracies. The "right to petition," per se, is not mentioned in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but the related freedom of assembly and right to "take part in the government" are.[3]

source
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Post by bmd Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:43 pm

Aaron wrote:They didn't pressure the government to do so. They exercised their 1st amendment right to petition the government for a redress of government. It is as basic as freedom of speech, to assemble or the free exercise of one's religion.

Or do you support denying that right to christians as the free exercise clause has been?

They abused their free speech rights to deny others the same.
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Post by Aaron Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:37 pm

You're gonna have to explain that one BMD as it sounds like a load to me.
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Post by bmd Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:25 pm

Q. Imagine that I convinced one of my US Senators to pressure Forumotion to ban you from this venue because I didn't like your religious and/or political views . Who would be in the wrong?

A. Forumotion, my Senator, and me; for the same reasons that the billboard company, the R.C. city government, and the wacko christians who complained are wrong.
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Post by Aaron Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:37 pm

You have a right to complain if you want to, just as the christians did.

It is their constitutional right, one they did not abuse.

Face the fact BMD, you are wrong in blaming those who complained.

Why can't just just admit that one very simple truth?
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Post by bmd Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:54 pm

With rights come responsibilities. Silencing those with whom you disagree is indefensible in a free society.

As Voltaire is said to have written, "I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.''
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Post by Aaron Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:00 pm

Yet you favor silencing the rights of those with whom you disagree with.

So how does that not make you just as bigoted as they are?
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Post by bmd Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:11 pm

WHERE did I say that ANYONE should be silenced??????

I was critical of the christians who whined to the R.C. town fathers, but I never said they should be silenced.

Why don't you debate what I actually said, rather than what you wish I had said? Or, are you capable of addressing reality?
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Post by Aaron Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:16 pm

bmd wrote:WHERE did I say that ANYONE should be silenced??????

I was critical of the christians who whined to the R.C. town fathers, but I never said they should be silenced.

Why don't you debate what I actually said, rather than what you wish I had said? Or, are you capable of addressing reality?

Today at 2:43 pm eastern time.

bmd wrote:They abused their free speech rights to deny others the same.

If that doesn't call for silencing Christians, I don't know what it means. In fact, I gave you a chance to explain which you never did.

Aaron wrote:You're gonna have to explain that one BMD as it sounds like a load to me.
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Post by bmd Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:01 pm

That I was critical of their efforts does not mean that I called for them to be silenced.
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Post by Aaron Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:55 pm

No, you just stated they were "abusing" these rights.

That's not critical, that imply's they went above those rights.

So what's up with that. For the second time, how did the "abuse" their constitutional rights?
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