The Sorry State of Education

by Cato Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:23 pm

I saw the thread on teacher hiring so I thought I'd throw out a few throughts on what I think is wrong with education. Especially since I have a wife and daughter teaching.

First, it may come as a surpirze to many that I agree, getting rid of poor teachers is nearly impossible. Two of my kids a a math teacher that was a complete idiotI can't explain how she held her job as long as she has, but she did and alot of kids have suffered for it. I also am aware of an english teacher whose first year proved a disaster, yet because of connections she retained her job again kids suffered. The same is true of a guidence counciler we had. The man was patheitic, yet he continued to hold his job even after it was proven he wasno good.

Do I fault the teachers unions for that. Yea, to some degree, but I really fault administration that is unwilling to do what they are responsibile for. Despite what amny may want to believe, you can fire a teacher. It takes work and documentation, but it can be done, it the adminsitration truly wants to do it. Problem is most don't.

Secondly, we have politicans the cowtow to the teachers unions at the expense of education. I guess votes are far more important that quality teachers. Which leads us to no. three, politicans lack the courage to stand for what they have done, so they blanketly blame teachers for the failings of the legislature. Yea, some teachers certainly have blame coming to them, but many are good and hard working and do not deserve the labeling they get from the politicians.

Fourth, not only don't adminsitrators and a number of teacher not care, most parents don't either. For many school is little more than a babysitter that gets Johnny out of the house. Many prents don't give a damn if the kid does well or not or behaves or not, so long as the kid is out of sight.

Fifth and worst of all discipline has been taken out fo the classroom. Kid no longer face the consequences of their behavior and that is sad.

If you truly want to cure education, the very best thing is to get it out of the hands of government and politicians. That ends all the BS froim both sides of the isle and thus we get on with actually educating our kids.

by Aaron Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:58 pm

Well, education is not going to be privatized so probably the best place to start is in how we hire administrators. You blame the administration for not having the guts to stand up to teachers and get rid of bad ones and my question is, why would they as administrators are former teachers who have met certain guidelines, which allows them to apply for administration jobs.

If you really want to fix education, ban teachers or anyone who has ever served or been affiliated with the teachers unions from becoming administrators and hire leaders to manage our million dollar schools. I would suggest career military people to start with but I certainly wouldn't limit myself to them.

I think many would be shocked to find the number of career business men and women who would jump at the chance to manage a school later in life, especially if they've done very well in the business sector and are looking to give something back.

by Cato Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:37 pm

Aaron wrote:Well, education is not going to be privatized so probably the best place to start is in how we hire administrators. You blame the administration for not having the guts to stand up to teachers and get rid of bad ones and my question is, why would they as administrators are former teachers who have met certain guidelines, which allows them to apply for administration jobs.

If you really want to fix education, ban teachers or anyone who has ever served or been affiliated with the teachers unions from becoming administrators and hire leaders to manage our million dollar schools. I would suggest career military people to start with but I certainly wouldn't limit myself to them.

I think many would be shocked to find the number of career business men and women who would jump at the chance to manage a school later in life, especially if they've done very well in the business sector and are looking to give something back.

I may be misuderstanding your statement regarding adminsitrators. Could you explain what you trying to say, please?

Speaking for myself, I won't want to manage a school, but I owuld like to teach. That is, provided that is what I was allowed to do. As far as admisnitrators goes, I agree that many times a career military preferably an officer would be a good thing.

by Aaron Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:24 pm

I'm saying that 99 times out of a hundred a former teacher will not make the hard choice against a fellow teacher in spite of what is best for the students or the school. If you eliminate teachers from adminstrative positions, you do away with that choice.

by Cato Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:50 pm

Aaron wrote:I'm saying that 99 times out of a hundred a former teacher will not make the hard choice against a fellow teacher in spite of what is best for the students or the school. If you eliminate teachers from adminstrative positions, you do away with that choice.

I don't know if I agree completely, but I will admit that there is definately a tendency to do as you stated, so maybe that isn't all that bad an idea.

I know that in my dealings with the eduation system, I have had to wonder who was actually the one in charge. That is why I blame the administration, all the way up to the legislature. They have concoked one rule after the next and anymore you have to wonder who is accoutible. Sometimes it the principle, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes its the superintendent sometimes its the state. Many times you can't get a straight answer as to who is accountible. Until this is dealt with education is going to imporve very much.

by Aaron Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:48 pm

It always starts at the front line and that's the principal and I've yet to meet one that puts teachers below the needs of their school or the students.

by ziggy Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:11 pm

Why would we think that "career military people" or "career business men and women" would be any better at managing schools than career educators would be at managing military units or business enterprises?

by Aaron Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:06 am

Who said anything about career educators managing the military. The last time I looked, the military was doing just fine.

The topic of this thread is the pathetic shape of our educational system.

by ziggy Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:05 pm

Aaron wrote:Who said anything about career educators managing the military?

I did.

The last time I looked, the military was doing just fine.

If the military is doing "just fine", then why are suicides among American soldiers at record high levels?

The topic of this thread is the pathetic shape of our educational system.

We knew you would find some excuse to not answer.

by Aaron Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:39 pm

I would have thought those mice in your pocket would have eaten a hole by now.

If you have a question relevant to the thread, ask it.

If you want to discuss the military, start another thread.

by ziggy Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:42 pm

U.S. defense officials say suicides among U.S. Army troops soared again last year, reaching the highest level since the Army began tracking suicides in 1980.

Officials say at least 128 soldiers killed themselves in 2008 - up from 115 in 2007. The final count is likely to be even higher as 15 other possible suicides are under investigation.

As it stands now, the suicide rate calculates to about 20 soldiers out of every 100,000.

The Army is launching a new effort to study the problem and determine why soldier suicides continue to rise. Authorities have said troops are under tremendous, unprecedented stress because of repeated and long tours of duty in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The U.S. Marines also reported a jump in suicides, from 33 in 2007 to 41 in 2008.

Last year, an army official said most soldier suicides do not happen in war zones.

A 2007 study found the most common triggers included failed personal relationships, legal and financial problems and the stress of the job.

Concerns have mounted over problems with the U.S. military health care system, which has been overwhelmed by large numbers of troops suffering from post-traumatic stress, depression and other mental health issues, as well as physical injuries.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-01-29-voa49.cfm

At the same time, the number of attempted suicides or self-inflicted injuries in the Army has jumped sixfold since the Iraq war began. Last year, about 2,100 soldiers injured themselves or attempted suicide, compared with about 350 in 2002, according to the U.S. Army Medical Command Suicide Prevention Action Plan.

http://www.infowars.com/soldier-suicides-at-record-level/

by ziggy Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:43 pm

Aaron wrote:I would have thought those mice in your pocket would have eaten a hole by now.

If you have a question relevant to the thread, ask it.

If you want to discuss the military, start another thread.

You are the one who brought military into this thread.

Running away from your own words again, eh?

by ziggy Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:49 pm

Maybe if Aaron had his military management way, all those teachers who ever belonged to a teachers union would committ suicide in record numbers like so many of those soldiers under his Iraq War era "just fine" military management do.

by Aaron Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:54 pm

Not at all. I'm just not interested in discussing your absurb notion of having teachers running the military. I think it's about as stupid a thing as I've heard in sometime.

by ziggy Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:57 pm

Aaron wrote:Not at all. I'm just not interested in discussing your absurb notion of having teachers running the military. I think it's about as stupid a thing as I've heard in sometime.

It is no more "stupid" than your notion of having "career military" people running the public schools.

by Aaron Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:15 pm

How so? West Point is one of the finest institutions of higher learning that can be found in this country.

And when you add that to years of hands on managing of people, budgets, discipline, business needs and in dealing with government bureaucracy, how could they not be qualified to lead our schools? Especially since our schools have become just another arm of the government bureaucracy.

Too not see that, you would either have to be stupid or have a deep seated hatred for the military.

So are you stupid Ziggy?

by ziggy Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:48 pm

Aaron wrote:How so? West Point is one of the finest institutions of higher learning that can be found in this country.

And when you add that to years of hands on managing of people, budgets, discipline, business needs and in dealing with government bureaucracy, how could they not be qualified to lead our schools? Especially since our schools have become just another arm of the government bureaucracy.

As is the military.

Too not see that, you would either have to be stupid or have a deep seated hatred for the military.

So are you stupid Ziggy?

I have often read you say so, sire.

by Cato Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:50 pm

Aaron wrote:How so? West Point is one of the finest institutions of higher learning that can be found in this country.

And when you add that to years of hands on managing of people, budgets, discipline, business needs and in dealing with government bureaucracy, how could they not be qualified to lead our schools? Especially since our schools have become just another arm of the government bureaucracy.

Too not see that, you would either have to be stupid or have a deep seated hatred for the military.

So are you stupid Ziggy?

I used not to believe as I do now, anyways, I really believe the best thing that could happen to education is people charge who expect the best from both teachers and students. That can be ex military or or business folks, I don't care, so long as they expect the very best performance from those under them and those they are responsibile for. Many times I think that is where we really fail in that the best is not expected. Instead we play to self esteem and let people skate by because we fear it would hurt the self esteem. My wife sees it happen, but there is little she can do about it.

That is one of a number of reasons I really would like to see education privatized. That would get allt he government do gooders out of the picture.

by Aaron Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:01 pm

ziggy wrote:
Aaron wrote:How so? West Point is one of the finest institutions of higher learning that can be found in this country.

And when you add that to years of hands on managing of people, budgets, discipline, business needs and in dealing with government bureaucracy, how could they not be qualified to lead our schools? Especially since our schools have become just another arm of the government bureaucracy.

As is the military.

That's what I said.

ziggy wrote:
Too not see that, you would either have to be stupid or have a deep seated hatred for the military.

So are you stupid Ziggy?

I have often read you say so, sire.

No you haven't.

by SamCogar Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:13 pm

ziggy wrote: If the military is doing "just fine", then why are suicides among American soldiers at record high levels?

Because they are a product of the current Public Education System and the bleeding heart liberal pansy wansy segment of our society.

No one wanted to hurt their feelings, ...... make them feel bad ....... or require them to respect authority ......... and when they joined the military no one was there to hold their hand and wipe their nose ..... and thus they are not mentally capable of coping with what they are having to experience.

Ziggy, just think of yourself ....... and you will have your answer that you can understand and relate to.

.

by SamCogar Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:19 pm

ziggy wrote:
Aaron wrote:Not at all. I'm just not interested in discussing your absurb notion of having teachers running the military. I think it's about as stupid a thing as I've heard in sometime.

It is no more "stupid" than your notion of having "career military" people running the public schools.

And that was the EXPERT opinion of someone who operated a really, really, really successful business in WV.

.

by ziggy Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:00 pm

SamCogar wrote:
ziggy wrote:
Aaron wrote:Not at all. I'm just not interested in discussing your absurb notion of having teachers running the military. I think it's about as stupid a thing as I've heard in sometime.

It is no more "stupid" than your notion of having "career military" people running the public schools.

And that was the EXPERT opinion of someone who operated a really, really, really successful business in WV.

.

Yes, and for 23 years. How long do most start-up single proprietor businesses last?

by ziggy Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:04 pm

SamCogar wrote:
ziggy wrote: If the military is doing "just fine", then why are suicides among American soldiers at record high levels?

Because they are a product of the current Public Education System and the bleeding heart liberal pansy wansy segment of our society.

No one wanted to hurt their feelings, ...... make them feel bad ....... or require them to respect authority ......... and when they joined the military no one was there to hold their hand and wipe their nose ..... and thus they are not mentally capable of coping with what they are having to experience.

Ziggy, just think of yourself ....... and you will have your answer that you can understand and relate to.

.

SamCogar's report of my suicide is incorrect.

He has me confused with someone else, again.

At the same time, the number of attempted suicides or self-inflicted injuries in the Army has jumped sixfold since the Iraq war began. Last year, about 2,100 soldiers injured themselves or attempted suicide, compared with about 350 in 2002, according to the U.S. Army Medical Command Suicide Prevention Action Plan.

http://www.infowars.com/soldier-suicides-at-record-level/

by Aaron Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:29 pm

ziggy wrote:
Yes, and for 23 years. How long do most start-up single proprietor businesses last?

And how many of them were qualified to run that business simply because they could operate a tow truck?

by wvsasha Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:17 pm

anyone ever heard the phrase "military intelligence" and NOT laughed??? lol!

As a person who comes from a family of many who have served in the military, teachers and educators as well as having a husband who is a teacher AND a retired military member who ALSO served in Iraq from '03-04 and DIDNT commit or attempt suicide........neither of us think that the military would be an excellent source of teachers for our children.

There are exceptions of course, but your average run-of-the-mill soldier wouldn't survive a week in a classroom with the given atmosphere in today's schools. Even those who run the ROTC programs are at a loss at times to deal with students and they have some freer rein to discipline the cadets than regular classroom teachers do.

There are a lot of factors that go into why classrooms are difficult today - most everyone has an opinion on what is the biggest reason. My own NSHO, is the loss of respect for education and loss of respect for oneself. And while one can point to a myriad of reasons for those losses but regardless of it's cause, the result is devastating.

I watch students every day make the choice to throw away that days opportunity for learning something which will lead to making a better life for themselves. i know teenagers are convinced that school sucks and nothing we have to teach them will help them in the future and part of that is the age they are. I remember being their age and thinking that teachers know nothing. But by god, if I had acted the way then that kids act now --- I wouldn't have lived to see 16.

Even though I knew my parents would have killed me, I also knew there was a larger picture and in order for me to have my own life, I had to get through certain things - middle school/junior high and high school being part of those things. I just had to suck it up and do it. During that time, I did learn *gasp* and was able to get an education which enabled me to go on to college and begin my adult life.

Why can't students today see that? Why can't they see beyond the end of their nose? Again, I know a lot of it is the age - but the rest of it? Where are the important adults in their life that show them how the game of life is supposed to be played? How the game of school is supposed to be played? And yes, sometimes it is a game. You play the right moves, make the right choices, you get rewarded with another spin of the board. Students have the control to make the correct choices and get through to the end of the game.

Are there curve balls and surprise cards handed you mid-game in the form of poor teachers and occasional unfair situations? Sure, but how you handle them allows you to grow and hopefully avoid similar situations in the future.

Two things I'm trying to teach my children as well as my students are these:

1) Lack of prior planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.

2) Piss poor planning produces piss poor performance.

Now, the exact wording on the second phrase does change, but I like the alliteration for here. Smile

When one respects oneself enough to keep those two rules of the road in mind, then most everything else will fall in line.

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