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The Sorry State of Education

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Post by Aaron Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:35 pm

wvsasha wrote:anyone ever heard the phrase "military intelligence" and NOT laughed??? lol!

As a person who comes from a family of many who have served in the military, teachers and educators as well as having a husband who is a teacher AND a retired military member who ALSO served in Iraq from '03-04 and DIDNT commit or attempt suicide........neither of us think that the military would be an excellent source of teachers for our children.


No one said anything about retired military in the classroom as teachers Sasha. If you go back an read the suggestion, it was that administration come from another venue besides teachers as they have shown they are not qualified to run our schools and educational system. I suggested retired military as, with proper education (is there better then West Point or Annapolis?) and experience (managing thousands of troops in a batallion or brigade) they are more the qualified to manage our school systems then teachers with a 5 week training course ever dreamed of being.
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Post by Stephanie Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:54 pm

Sasha must be wondering why I hadn't added my 2 cents here. I think this thread began Day 1 of my 11 freaking day stretch of no phone service due to a windstorm. I missed it.

Anyway, Aaron I disagree with the notion of retired military officers is preferable to former teachers as administrators. I don't think you have a very clear picture of what the job of school principal requires in the 21st century. I'm confident Sasha does.

Now that doesn't mean I don't think there should be changes made because I certainly do. I have made myself quite clear in what I believe must happen in order to quickly and efficiently dispose of teachers who are incompetent, unkind to children and the like. That begins with ending teacher tenure. As long as that law is on the books it is extremely difficult and cost prohibitive for a district to get rid of a "bad" teacher.

As far as administrators are concerned, WV education rules and regulations are not an area of expertise for me. I don't know what the requirements are to be a school principal in this state. Whatever they are, I know they need to be increased because the principal at BHS couldn't manage a hotdog cart. His people skills are nonexistant. He is obnoxious and I'm not sure he has a clue what the meaning of the words compromise or consensus are.

In most states administrators must complete additional training and/or internships in order to receive the certificate required to work as a school administrator. I'm not sure that is the case here, although I suspect it is because that has become the norm throughout the nation over the past couple of decades or so. However, what additional training and experience is required varies.

You find the notion of retired teachers leading soldiers ridiculous because you have been a soldier and realize the job requires more than just barking commands. Being a school principal requires more than just suspending students and hiring and firing teachers.
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Post by Aaron Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:22 pm

I think I have a very clear picture of what a high school principal has to manage Stephanie and it's not a "teaching" position and the 5 week "internship" doesn't qualify a 'teacher' to be an administrator. First and foremost, a principal is a 'manager' and regardless of what you think while certain traits of leadership are achievable by individuals, "leadership" itself is not an easily taught trait.

That is why I suggest retired military but if you go back and read my first post, I also any retired business leader if so qualified could do the job. Ziggy focused on the military because he HATES soldiers.

You should really look at what goes into running a battalion or a brigade and tell me that doesn't qualify someone to be 'manage' our schools more then teaching a class and taking a 5 week seminar does.

And if you can't see my point I'll settle for being right and agree that you don't agree with me.
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Post by Stephanie Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:58 pm

No Aaron, it is crystal clear to me that you don't comprehend what duties a public school principal performs today. If you did, you wouldn't be focusing strictly on management skills.

I agree with you a 5 week internship isn't going to qualify a teacher to be an effective administrator. What I disagree with is your insistance that someone who has proven leadership and/or managerial skills can be a good principal based upon those skills alone.

Look, I'm a homeschooler. I don't believe it takes a rocket scientist to teach a child to read and write. I know you don't need a masters degree to teach a child history either. What I also know is that the rules and regulations governing public education today are not something a retired CEO is going master is a 6 week course. There is IDEA to contend with.

Then there is the issue of teacher evaluations. If a person has no background in education, just how do you suppose they are going to accurately evaluate the job performance of a teacher? You think looking at standardized test scores is going to do it? How about teachers like Sasha? How is a retired Army Major going to evaluate her job performance or her instructional techniques?

You're wrong. It isn't the first time and it won't be the last. Learn to live with it.
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Post by Aaron Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:12 pm

Besides showing you don't know as much as you think you do about principals or schools Stephanie, you're also showing you know very little about the military, business or management.

Probably one the biggest responsibilities of any leader in business or the military is personnel development. To develop people, you have to be able to evaluate them. Teacher evaluations would be nothing for any leader with years of management experience.

As for rules and regulations, are you serious? I've seen the regulations dealing with schools, I've seen the CFR from OSHA and MSHA regulations and I've seen the UCMJ.

You may know teachers from a school board perspective. What you struggle with is business, the military, leadership, management, school administrators and the real world. Other then that, you've got it all down pat.
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Post by Stephanie Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:46 pm

I wish you knew a tiny fraction of what you think you know about education. Then perhaps we could have a good conversation about the subject.

Being threatened with having my windows and doors nailed shut and my house set on fire with me and my children inside it is as close to the "real world" as I want to get. Also, I've probably evaluated the job performance of more school administrators than you've known.

While I've learned over the course of the past couple of years you're actually a pretty decent guy, you do talk a lot of crap. This is one such example.
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Post by SamCogar Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:57 am

Stephanie wrote:Anyway, Aaron I disagree with the notion of retired military officers is preferable to former teachers as administrators.

As far as administrators are concerned .....Whatever they are, I know they need to be increased because the principal at BHS couldn't manage a hotdog cart. His people skills are nonexistant. He is obnoxious and I'm not sure he has a clue what the meaning of the words compromise or consensus are.

So you prefer someone who can't manage a hotdog cart ........

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Post by SamCogar Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:07 am

wvsasha wrote:There are a lot of factors that go into why classrooms are difficult today - most everyone has an opinion on what is the biggest reason.

But by god, if I had acted the way then that kids act now --- I wouldn't have lived to see 16.

Even though I knew my parents would have killed me, ........

Interesting that you know what the root problem is ....... but you really only addressed it concerning yourself.

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Post by Aaron Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:31 am

Yeah, I do talk a lot of crap and yes, this one is partially it.

The reason is simple. I totally disagree with you. As I've yet to meet one, I don't for a second think former teachers make good principals. No matter how many seminars you send them to, at their core, they are and will always remain teachers.

Just as leaders, at their core, are and will always remain leaders.

And while we have poor teachers who we need to get rid of, the core problem in our educational system, as I see it, is poor leaders and adminstrators. I think if we clean those up, they'll take care of the rest.

That's the way I see it.
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Post by sodbuster Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:52 pm

Since the beginning of time each generation thinks theirs was the last one to measure up.

But somehow we seem to survive.

As for me, I am willing to admit all my kids have been smarter than I am, and they are good citizens, compassionate and kind.

And they don't have to think they are better than someone else.

I suspect many of yall's kids are too.

But many feel a need to preach doom and gloom about the next generation, about their State, and about their country.

Each generation of Americans has risen to the occasion, often overcoming tremendous obstacles.

i.e. Revolutionary War, the battle against slavery, two World Wars, and a Great Depression.

I am quite confident with the Good Lord's grace and mercy and a new generation of leadership, our next generation of Americans will respond accordingly and will pull out of this financial crisis/Depression they have inherited.

I would think the new generation would have greater misgivings about us than we would have of them.

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Post by SamCogar Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:29 pm

The Good Lord is not going to provide anything but "false hope" to the ignorant and gullible.

And the next generation of Americans will respond accordingly to what the present generation of teachers and leadership are teaching them ........ which will not be as much as the present generation of teachers and leadership were taught ... and so on back to the late 60's - early 70's when teaching and leadership began to deteriorate.

It will take at least another 40+ years to reverse what has occurred during the past 40+ years even if one started today and the current teachers and leadership made a concerted effort to do so.

And that ain't gonna happen.

The "social pendulum" can not be swung back without a lot of heartbreak, misery and bloodshed ........ and thus a new Phoenix will rise up from the ashes.

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Post by ziggy Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:28 pm

SamCogar wrote:
............................. and so on back to the late 60's - early 70's when teaching and leadership began to deteriorate.

Hmmmmm. Just a coincidence ...................................... ?

This was just about the time Americans were becoming more and more outraged about their country's involvement in an illicit war half way around the world. And then came Watergate .......................

In the "late 60's - early 70's when teaching and leadership began to deteriorate", there was Lyndon Johnson and the Vietnam debacle, followed by tricky Dick Nixon and the Watergate debacle.

If official lies about going to war and conducting war, nearly endless coverup schemes, and using the IRS to "screw" one's political enemies were good enough for presidents of the United States, then similar devil-may-care attitudes were good enough for all young Americans who were learning how to live during that era. Lawlessness breeds more lawlessness. And that generation of parents are the teachers of the next generation, and on and on .........................

And so we get the same old same old, snowballing a little more with each generation.
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Post by Stephanie Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:44 pm

Since the beginning of time each generation thinks theirs was the last one to measure up.

I don't think for a minute my generation has "measured up". I think my generation, like the one before it, has been a deplorable failure.

I sincerely hope our children do better.
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Post by Aaron Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:19 am

ziggy wrote:SamCogar wrote:
............................. and so on back to the late 60's - early 70's when teaching and leadership began to deteriorate.

Hmmmmm. Just a coincidence ...................................... ?

This was just about the time Americans were becoming more and more outraged about their country's involvement in an illicit war half way around the world. And then came Watergate .......................

In the "late 60's - early 70's when teaching and leadership began to deteriorate", there was Lyndon Johnson and the Vietnam debacle, followed by tricky Dick Nixon and the Watergate debacle.

If official lies about going to war and conducting war, nearly endless coverup schemes, and using the IRS to "screw" one's political enemies were good enough for presidents of the United States, then similar devil-may-care attitudes were good enough for all young Americans who were learning how to live during that era. Lawlessness breeds more lawlessness. And that generation of parents are the teachers of the next generation, and on and on .........................

And so we get the same old same old, snowballing a little more with each generation.

The only problem with that fanatical rant is the Presidents started the "official lies about going to war and conducting war, nearly endless coverup schemes, and using the IRS to "screw" one's political enemies" at least in 1915 and perfected it in the late 30's. LBJ and Tricky Dick wasn't doing anything that had not already been perfected by Woodrow Wilson and FDR.

LBJ's Gulf of Tonkin had nothing on FDR's manipulation of t he Japense or of WW's New Jersey bombings or Lufthansa sinking.

Seems to me your moaning and bitching is years late. It's that whole history and those unwilling to learn from it repeating it stuff.

Perhaps if our schools taught history as they should, our children would stand a chance of learning it even if our older comrade hasn't.
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Post by SamCogar Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:36 am

followed by tricky Dick Nixon and the Watergate debacle.

There would not have been a Watergate debacle ... if Nixon had not lied about it.

When confronted about it, he should have said, ...... "HELL YES, that is the way politics is played in DC", .......... and that would have been the end of it.

But by lying about it, the Press built it up into a more dastardly, devious, criminal act ...... than Sandy Burgular's act of stuffing his shorts full of stolen material from the National Archives ...... or Hillary hiding all those "stolen documents" under her bed.

The Sorry State of Education - Page 2 197570 The Sorry State of Education - Page 2 197570 The Sorry State of Education - Page 2 197570 The Sorry State of Education - Page 2 197570 The Sorry State of Education - Page 2 197570




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Post by ziggy Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:49 am

SamCogar wrote:
followed by tricky Dick Nixon and the Watergate debacle.

There would not have been a Watergate debacle ... if Nixon had not lied about it.

When confronted about it, he should have said, ...... "HELL YES, that is the way politics is played in DC", .......... and that would have been the end of it.[/center]

Well now you finally got one right, Sam.

And to think that I had almost given up on you ......................

So maybe there is still hope for the world after all.
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Post by ziggy Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:15 am

LBJ's Gulf of Tonkin had nothing on FDR's manipulation of the Japense or of WW's New Jersey bombings or Lufthansa sinking.

Oh yes it did. What it had was the unabashed, publicly obvious ring of official mendacity and hipocracy from day one. Johnson just didn't give a damn if it were even half plausable. He make only a half-assed effort to make even a plausable excuse for a half-assed war policy.

Seems to me your moaning and bitching is years late.


I was "moaning and bitching" about LBJ's Gulf of Tonkin and follow-up Vietnam fiascos when you were still in diapers.

It's that whole history and those unwilling to learn from it repeating it stuff.

Right. Goerge W. Bush and Dick Cheney and Donnie Rumsfeld didn't learn a damn thing from LBJ's and Dick Nixon's Vietnam misadventures.
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Post by SamCogar Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:20 am

So maybe there is still hope for the world after all.

Not while there are still people like you f'ing it up.

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Post by Aaron Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:23 am

LBJ and Tricky Dick weren't doing anything but repeating the lessons FDR and WW set forth when they lied and took this country into world wars, which not only set the precedent for Vietnam, but in terms of total loss, eclipsed it ten fold. Until you condemn them for their actions, your ranting is nothing but hot air. The fact that you’ve been doing it since I was in diapers only means you’ve been a blowhard for 40+ years.
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Post by ziggy Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:32 am

SamCogar wrote:
So maybe there is still hope for the world after all.

Not while there are still people like you f'ing it up.

Now Sam, I'm just a dumb ole' Ziggy, remember? If I am as ignorant and helpless as you sometimes pretend here, I couldn't be guilty of f'ing up even in a school of professional f'ker uppers. So take off your scapegoating smirk and take a sober look.
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Post by Stephanie Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:49 am

I doubt there's any hope for Kanawha County public schools.

Apparently, 3 students from John Adams Middle School were left alone at 5 o'clock in the morning at the Servia Rd rest area in Braxton County weekend before last after becoming ill on a bus trip to Washington, DC. Their excuse is they called the parents and the parents were "ok" with leaving the kids at a highway rest stop in the predawn hours. Whatever.

So far officials have not released the names of faculty members chaperoning this trip, but according to posters to the comment section of the Daily Mail they include 4 teachers, the vice principal and the principal of John Adams. So far no action has been taken against these people.

Meanwhile, they fired one guy a year or so ago for having a cookout for students.

Brilliant.
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Post by SamCogar Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:56 am

ziggy wrote:Right. Goerge W. Bush and Dick Cheney and Donnie Rumsfeld didn't learn a damn thing from LBJ's and Dick Nixon's Vietnam misadventures.

Don't be posting that crap again.

Bush's primary problem concerning Iraq ....... was because you and the Bush Hating Democrats joined forces and supported the Saddam partisans, the terrorists and the insurgents fighting against our Military in Iraq.

You Bush Hating Democrats did your damnest to make Bush's action a failure and thus your actions are the direct cause of over 3,000 Military killed and tens of thousands wounded.

That is a pretty damn high cost ....... just because you hate someone.

Give someone authorization to do something, ......... then turn like a snake and bite him every step of the way.

And don't be trying to lie your way out of it.

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Post by SamCogar Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:00 am

Stephanie wrote:I doubt there's any hope for Kanawha County public schools.

Apparently, 3 students from John Adams Middle School were left alone at 5 o'clock in the morning at the Servia Rd rest area in Braxton County weekend before last after becoming ill on a bus trip to Washington, DC. Their excuse is they called the parents and the parents were "ok" with leaving the kids at a highway rest stop in the predawn hours. Whatever.

So far officials have not released the names of faculty members chaperoning this trip, but according to posters to the comment section of the Daily Mail they include 4 teachers, the vice principal and the principal of John Adams. So far no action has been taken against these people.

Meanwhile, they fired one guy a year or so ago for having a cookout for students.

Brilliant.

Well I am definitely sure that there are at least two on this Forum that will support their actions.

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Post by ziggy Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:14 pm

SamCogar wrote:
ziggy wrote:Right. Goerge W. Bush and Dick Cheney and Donnie Rumsfeld didn't learn a damn thing from LBJ's and Dick Nixon's Vietnam misadventures.

Don't be posting that crap again.

Well Sam, we have noticed that you haven't even tried to defend either Johnson in Vietnam nor Bush in Iraq. All you've done is try to find scapegoats for their bunglings.

Bush's primary problem concerning Iraq ....... was because you and the Bush Hating Democrats joined forces and supported the Saddam partisans, the terrorists and the insurgents fighting against our Military in Iraq.

Hell Sam, Bush knew going into Iraq that there was a lot of opposition to what he was contemplating doing in Iraq. If he let a few pissant protesters like Ziggy deter him from some other course in Iraq, then he didn't have much resolve at all to succeed at whatever his aim was in the first place, now did he?

You Bush Hating Democrats did your damnest to make Bush's action a failure


You mean like you and other Rush Limbaugh dittoheads are doing your "damnest" to make Obama's action a failure? Talk about hate!

and thus your actions are the direct cause of over 3,000 Military killed and tens of thousands wounded.

GW Bush, and not Ziggy, was the Commander-in-Chief of the military. He sent 'em there, he could have brought 'em back when he saw how much of a failure it really was becoming. But his ego and foolish pride got in the way of good sense. And so now you need a scapegoat for Bush's folly, and since Ziggy is handy that scapegoat is Ziggy. But that's OK. By blaming the dumbass Ziggy's of America for Bush's folly, you illustrate just how bankrupt of logical purpose and resolve Bush's war mania was.

That is a pretty damn high cost ....... just because you hate someone. Give someone authorization to do something, ......... then turn like a snake and bite him every step of the way.

I did not authorize him to do anything. I told you so- in early October 1992- after Bush made that "45 minute" to launch and "mushroom cloud" speech in Cincinnati- that it was all so bogus.

And don't be trying to lie your way out of it.

Why not? You "lied" me into it.
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Post by SamCogar Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:27 pm

Yeah, just like I lied you into the Nam War.

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