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Re: Ravenswood

Post by ziggy on Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:39 am

SamCogar wrote:The sworn duty of Judges and Justices are to interpret the original intent of the Law and apply said when rendering their decision, ...... not to re-write the Law to what they want it to read ...... nor to create new Laws and Statutes (Legislate from the Bench) to appease their own personal biases.

Says who? It would be interesting to know where you might have pulled that from, Sam.

In West Virginia:

4-5. Oath or affirmation to support the constitution.
Every person elected or appointed to any office, before proceeding to exercise the authority, or discharge the duties thereof, shall make oath or affirmation that he will support the constitution of the United States and the constitution of this state, and that he will faithfully discharge the duties of his said office to the best of his skill and judgment; and no other oath, declaration, or test shall be required as a qualification, unless herein otherwise provided.

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/Code.cfm
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Stephanie on Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:42 am

I don't see where I have changed my position on this issue. I agree with the WVSC decision which simply reiterates what is in the code.

This is a big deal because it is high school football and my West Virginians take high school football far too seriously. If this had happened in high school volleyball we wouldn't be discussing it.

Carrie Webster made a mistake. I doubt it will be her last. You have a problem with being on the losing side of anything, Aaron. I don't feel any great victory when it comes to this issue other than my belief from the beginning the courts should not be involved in this matter at all because WV code clearly gives all the power in these matters to the SSAC. That is the law.

What I am completely unfamiliar with is the earlier case you brought up. I don't know what it was about, or why the court intervened. I'm taking your word for it that the cases are very similar, but I really don't know that to be true. It doesn't matter anyway. The WVSC has ruled and that's it.

The one thing I don't understand is why the rules prohibit officials from reviewing video of events. That needs to change, imho. Smile

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by SamCogar on Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:23 am

ziggy wrote:
SamCogar wrote:The sworn duty of Judges and Justices are to interpret the original intent of the Law and apply said when rendering their decision, ...... not to re-write the Law to what they want it to read ...... nor to create new Laws and Statutes (Legislate from the Bench) to appease their own personal biases.

Says who? It would be interesting to know where you might have pulled that from, Sam.

In West Virginia:

4-5. Oath or affirmation to support the constitution.
Every person elected or appointed to any office, before proceeding to exercise the authority, or discharge the duties thereof, shall make oath or affirmation that he will support the constitution of the United States and the constitution of this state, and that he will faithfully discharge the duties of his said office to the best of his skill and judgment; and no other oath, declaration, or test shall be required as a qualification, unless herein otherwise provided.

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/Code.cfm

Well now, herein otherwise provided is this for one thing.

CHAPTER 51. COURTS AND THEIR OFFICERS.
ARTICLE 1A. UNIFORM CERTIFICATION OF QUESTIONS OF LAW ACT.

51-1A-8. Procedures.
After the supreme court of appeals of West Virginia has accepted a certified question, proceedings are governed by the rules and statutes of this state governing briefs, arguments and other appellate procedures. Procedures for certification from this state to a receiving court shall be those provided in the rules and statutes of the receiving forum.

51-1A-9. Opinion.
The supreme court of appeals of West Virginia shall state in a written opinion the law answering the certified question and send a copy of the opinion to the certifying court, to counsel of record and to unrepresented parties.

Now we will await your weazelworded reply to that.

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:43 am

Stephanie wrote:I don't see where I have changed my position on this issue. I agree with the WVSC decision which simply reiterates what is in the code.

This is a big deal because it is high school football and my West Virginians take high school football far too seriously. If this had happened in high school volleyball we wouldn't be discussing it.

Carrie Webster made a mistake. I doubt it will be her last. You have a problem with being on the losing side of anything, Aaron. I don't feel any great victory when it comes to this issue other than my belief from the beginning the courts should not be involved in this matter at all because WV code clearly gives all the power in these matters to the SSAC. That is the law.

What I am completely unfamiliar with is the earlier case you brought up. I don't know what it was about, or why the court intervened. I'm taking your word for it that the cases are very similar, but I really don't know that to be true. It doesn't matter anyway. The WVSC has ruled and that's it.

The one thing I don't understand is why the rules prohibit officials from reviewing video of events. That needs to change, imho. Smile

I'm curious Stephanie, did you actually read Webster's decision? Or read the Mayo decision including footnotes? How about the Oakley decision or the Hamiltion decision? And since you bring up the WV Code, you understand that a court can intervene in an internal matter if a rule is, among other things, capricious or arbritary? It's right there in the code.

Websters decision was spot on. The mistake was made by the WV Supreme Court and if you bothered to do some research, would know that.
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:48 am

Stephanie wrote:I don't feel any great victory when it comes to this issue other than my belief from the beginning the courts should not be involved in this matter at all because WV code clearly gives all the power in these matters to the SSAC. That is the law.

But your only quoting part of the WV Code Stephanie.

29A-4-1. Declaratory rulings by agencies.

On petition of any interested person, an agency may issue a declaratory ruling with respect to the applicability to any person, property or state of facts of any rule or statute enforceable by it. A declaratory ruling, if issued after argument and stated to be binding, is binding between the agency and the petitioner on the state of facts alleged, unless it is altered or set aside by a court, but it shall not be binding on any other person. Such ruling is subject to review before the court and in the manner hereinafter provided for the review of orders or decisions in contested cases. Each agency may prescribe by rule the form for such petitions and the procedure for their submission, consideration and disposition.

29A-4-2. Declaratory judgment on validity of rule.
(a) Any person, except the agency promulgating the rule, may have the validity of any rule determined by instituting an action for a declaratory judgment in the circuit court of Kanawha county, West Virginia, when it appears that the rule, or its threatened application, interferes with or impairs or threatens to interfere with or impair, the legal rights or privileges of the plaintiff or plaintiffs. The agency shall be made a party to the proceeding. The declaratory judgment may be rendered whether or not the plaintiff or plaintiffs has or have first requested the agency to pass upon the validity of the rule in question.

(b) The court shall declare the rule invalid if it finds that the rule violates constitutional provisions or exceeds the statutory authority or jurisdiction of the agency or was adopted without compliance with statutory rule-making procedures or is arbitrary or capricious, or that, in the case of a rule adopted pursuant to section five, article three of this chapter, action under said section five was not justified.

Websters ruling was spot on and yes, you are still wrong.
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Stephanie on Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:51 am

I did read Webster's decision, but not the others.

You're pissing in the wind, Aaron. Webster is an inexperienced judge who made a rookie mistake which was overturned by more experienced judges.

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:01 am

I'm not pissing in anything Stephanie. You don't know what the hell you're talking about. If you listen to or read the trail transcript, you will see where Judge Webster refers to the portion of the State Code you mention that demostrates that she cannot intervene. She then refers to previous decisions by the West Virginia Supreme Court, cites relevant WV Code and explains the grounds that give her the authority to intervene. How is that a rookie mistake? And how is her verdict wrong based on all the evidence? You can't answer any of that.



Last edited by Aaron on Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Stephanie on Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:02 am

Apparently the only people who know what you're talking about are you and Carrie Webster.

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:14 am

I'm sure there were lots of parents who said the same thing in Veronia, Oregon 15 years ago as well yet were told, it's only sports, you don't know what you're talking about.

Regarding this case, I know a hell of a lot more about it then you do because you choose to remain ignoratn of the facts and instead choose to listen to popular opinion. When you inform yourself, come talk to me. Until then, you're spouting tripe you know nothing about.

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:53 am

Stephanie wrote:I did read Webster's decision, but not the others.

You're pissing in the wind, Aaron. Webster is an inexperienced judge who made a rookie mistake which was overturned by more experienced judges.

It hit me while I was in the shower. All along, this hasn't been about this case or football (well maybe a little as Kate was in the band and I know how band geeks and football players get along) or about the WVSSAC, case law, the WV Code or anything else.

What your response boils down to is that you were an ardant supporter of Dan Greer of whom Carrie Webster defeated in the last election. This is all politics for you, nothing more then sour grapes and has nothing to do with the facts.

No matter what truth I show you, you're not going to change your mind because it was Webster who made the decision and not Greer.

The things a hot shower will bring to the surface, huh...
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by ziggy on Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:52 pm

SamCogar wrote:
ziggy wrote:
SamCogar wrote:The sworn duty of Judges and Justices are to interpret the original intent of the Law and apply said when rendering their decision, ...... not to re-write the Law to what they want it to read ...... nor to create new Laws and Statutes (Legislate from the Bench) to appease their own personal biases.

Says who? It would be interesting to know where you might have pulled that from, Sam.

In West Virginia:

4-5. Oath or affirmation to support the constitution.
Every person elected or appointed to any office, before proceeding to exercise the authority, or discharge the duties thereof, shall make oath or affirmation that he will support the constitution of the United States and the constitution of this state, and that he will faithfully discharge the duties of his said office to the best of his skill and judgment; and no other oath, declaration, or test shall be required as a qualification, unless herein otherwise provided.

http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/Code.cfm

Well now, herein otherwise provided is this for one thing.

CHAPTER 51. COURTS AND THEIR OFFICERS.
ARTICLE 1A. UNIFORM CERTIFICATION OF QUESTIONS OF LAW ACT.

51-1A-8. Procedures.
After the supreme court of appeals of West Virginia has accepted a certified question, proceedings are governed by the rules and statutes of this state governing briefs, arguments and other appellate procedures. Procedures for certification from this state to a receiving court shall be those provided in the rules and statutes of the receiving forum.

51-1A-9. Opinion.
The supreme court of appeals of West Virginia shall state in a written opinion the law answering the certified question and send a copy of the opinion to the certifying court, to counsel of record and to unrepresented parties.

Now we will await your weazelworded reply to that.

This has nothing to do with the "sworn oath" you erroneously posted above. And nothing in this tells judges to somehow devine "the original intent of the Law".
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Stephanie on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:47 pm

Aaron wrote:
Stephanie wrote:I did read Webster's decision, but not the others.

You're pissing in the wind, Aaron. Webster is an inexperienced judge who made a rookie mistake which was overturned by more experienced judges.

It hit me while I was in the shower. All along, this hasn't been about this case or football (well maybe a little as Kate was in the band and I know how band geeks and football players get along) or about the WVSSAC, case law, the WV Code or anything else.

What your response boils down to is that you were an ardant supporter of Dan Greer of whom Carrie Webster defeated in the last election. This is all politics for you, nothing more then sour grapes and has nothing to do with the facts.

No matter what truth I show you, you're not going to change your mind because it was Webster who made the decision and not Greer.

The things a hot shower will bring to the surface, huh...

Katie never had a problem with the football players. She's a pretty geek. Teenaged boys and their raging hormones focus way more on the pretty than the geek part.

You really ought not be thinking of me while showering, Aaron. It's just not fittin'. Shocked

What you need to do is make up your mind. Do I agree with the WVSC decision because it is popular opinion? Do I agree with the WVSC decision because Dan Greear is an acquaintance? Do I agree with the WVSC because it's "just sports"? Could it be, just maybe, that I agree with the WVSC because they made the correct decision as I've been stating all along.




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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:06 am

I was confused because given the facts of the case, I wondered why you would agree with the wrong side but as I said, it's not the issue you refuse to agree with, it's the judge. Had Webster ruled them ineligble you would be screaming abou the injustice of that decision because Webster made it, not Greer.

You're not arguing an issue (which is easy to see considering you don't know what the facts are), you've got an agenda; disagree with Carrier Webster no matter what she says.

Sorry but the voters of Kanawha County have spoken and Webster won.

Move on
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Stephanie on Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:22 am

Whatever, Aaron. Tell yourself whatever you like.

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:40 am

If it's that Webster didn't make the decision then you'll have no problem explaining the Oakley and Hamiltion decisions along with the portion of the WV Code that gives authority for judicial review, right Stephanie.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Stephanie on Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:03 am

Will it make you feel better to think I agree with the WVSC decision in this case because it was Webster's ruling? Will that make you feel better, Aaron?

Who's Hamilton? What happened to Mayo?

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:12 am

If you don't know who Hamiliton or Mayo are, how are you so sure Webster was wrong? After all, you said you read her decison.

So explain how she is wrong given the decision in the Hamiliton case.
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Stephanie on Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:57 pm

OK, Aaron. You win. Webster is a brilliant jurist. The WVSC FUBAR'd the whole thing. HS athletic disputes are every bit as important as everything else and they are entitled to their day in court. In fact, they should have more of them.

Feel better?

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:40 pm

Is admitting that you're wrong and don't have a clue what you're talking about really that hard Stephanie?

Seriously though, you don't have to take the PMS attitude.

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Stephanie on Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:16 am

You don't get it, Aaron. I don't think I'm wrong. I just don't care enough about this topic to discuss it any longer. I know this sends you over the top, but it is just high school football.

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:49 am

First, I don't expect you to admit you're wrong as that is a quality, like many on here, you do not have. In all my years of reading your post, I've never seen you admit you were wrong or change a position that wasn't politically popular. In fact, in all my years of posting with this group-both here and on the old Gazette forum-the only person besides myself that I've seen admit they were wrong or change an opinion on was Cato so your stance here is not new.

But If you're not wrong, then address the Hamilton decison. Or leave the thread and converse no more. But don't think for a second that I'm not going to respond when you reply with a snarky comment like you did, especially when I'm right.

If you don't care, then don't care and leave but understand that it was apathy like this that led to the Veronia decision so if it's just sports, then the drug testing is not an issue with you because that's "just sports" as well.

But just so you know, it's not just football. This case and Route 35 are so similar that it's not even funny and if you bothered with doing a little research, you might see that.

But hey, it's "just sports", right.


Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Stephanie on Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:03 am

It's 2 weeks before Christmas and I'm not quite done shopping yet. I still have lots more to wrap, plus I have to ship. I haven't started my Christmas cards and man I have to get the damn tree up! Yesterday I made the trek from Leon to Bethany & back again. Kate is home now yippee!) and this week I have a Christmas party, the Nutcracker, 2 gym classes & yet another Christmas party on Saturday.

One week from today the lunacy known as "MOM BAKES COOKIES" begins. Once the cookies are done there are the pies, followed by the damn truffles. I'll never know how it was that truffles became part of the insanity over here, but they did and now for some reason I'll never understand I must make at least a thousand of the frigging things. I loathe making truffles. Once the truffles are done there is all the delivering of the damn truffles and cookies and pies and the bread or two I make and I just can't wait until December 26th.

How does this happen? How did I allow it to get to this point? I don't know, I'm an idiot. So there you have it. By the time December rolls around I don't think it's possible I could care less about any judge or any court's ruling involving a high school football game.

I likely won't have time to care until January 3rd, after Katie is back at Bethany.

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Aaron on Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:41 am

And in the time you read that, you could have come up with a logical reason as to why you say courts cannot intercede in the inner workings of the SSAC but yet that is exactly what they did in the Hamilton Case.

But hey, its just football. And the toll road is just transportation. And out current Governor defying the state Constitution is just politics. They all go hand in hand in West Virginia and if you can't complain about one, what's the use to complain about any of them.

Or do you select which miscarriages of justice you protest?
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Re: Ravenswood

Post by SamCogar on Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:58 am

Here Steph

http://www.ilike.com/artist/Merle+Haggard/track/If+We+Make+It+Through+December?src=onebox

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Re: Ravenswood

Post by Stephanie on Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:19 am

Aaron wrote:And in the time you read that, you could have come up with a logical reason as to why you say courts cannot intercede in the inner workings of the SSAC but yet that is exactly what they did in the Hamilton Case.

But hey, its just football. And the toll road is just transportation. And out current Governor defying the state Constitution is just politics. They all go hand in hand in West Virginia and if you can't complain about one, what's the use to complain about any of them.

Or do you select which miscarriages of justice you protest?

Aaron, just because you interpet something a particular way, doesn't make it so.

The WVSC agrees with me. That's it. Don't be such a sore "loser". It isn't a very attractive quality.

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Re: Ravenswood

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