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Why those who quote "separation" are wrong.

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Why those who quote "separation" are wrong. Empty Why those who quote "separation" are wrong.

Post by Aaron Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:25 pm

Another great read. This one explains why TC and Zig are both wrong in their beliefs on the 1st Amendment.

The purpose of the First Amendment was not to protect Americans from religion, it was to protect religion from government intrusion. This “understanding” is in full and obvious accord with the raison d’etre of the Bill of Rights to limit the federal government’s power and thereby secure the freedom of individuals and the rights of the states. The Bill of Rights was a declaration of what the federal government could not do.

source
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Post by TerryRC Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:32 am

Too keep the government out of religion, you need to keep the religion out of government.

I would think that even you could realize that.

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Post by Aaron Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:15 pm

Why should I realize that, because you say so? Sorry, I don’t see it that way.

And neither does the 1st Amendment which is why your interpretation is wrong.
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Post by TerryRC Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:29 am

Why should I realize that, because you say so? Sorry, I don’t see it that way.

I doubt you would see it that way if most of your politicians were muslim instead of christian.

If you bring the practice of religion into government, you are sanctioning that/those religions, whether officially or unofficially.

People like Jefferson and Paine realized this a long time ago.

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Post by Aaron Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:39 am

TerryRC wrote:Why should I realize that, because you say so? Sorry, I don’t see it that way.

I doubt you would see it that way if most of your politicians were muslim instead of christian.

If you bring the practice of religion into government, you are sanctioning that/those religions, whether officially or unofficially.

People like Jefferson and Paine realized this a long time ago.

Who says Jefferson realized this? You? Or the Supreme Court in 1878 when they were trying to find a reason to not allow bigamy among Mormons? You’re as wrong as they were in the Reynolds case. Your intrepretation was never Jefferson's intent. But then if you had read the article, you might understand.

Yes, it would have been impossible for these God-fearing men to have deliberately built a “Wall of Separation” between church and state. Here is how the phrase and eventually the concept of this “wall of separation” originated.

In 1801, the Danbury Baptist Association wrote a letter to President Thomas Jefferson. They were alarmed about a rumor. Was a national denomination soon to be established? Jefferson responded by letter on January 1, 1802, assuring them that there was no basis to the rumor. He said, “I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.”

The Danbury Baptists were apparently satisfied. They understood the “wall” to be one-directional, protecting them and other churches from possible discrimination and harm by means of a “governmental-favored denomination” status. Nevertheless, Jefferson’s eight-word phrase, “a wall of separation between Church and State,” has become the defining metaphor for today’s misinterpretation of the First Amendment.
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Post by TerryRC Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:43 am

I just have to look at places where religion is wedded to government, officially or otherwise to know that to keep the government out of religion, you need to keep the religion out of government.

You think christians get a fair shake in Indonesia? You think the laws aren't largely based on islamic rules?

I know better. I think it sick that so many politicians wear their religion on their sleeves and the sheep line up to get behind them.

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Post by TerryRC Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:48 am

This is the result of mixing religion and public office - stupidity:

JK Rowling denied medal by Bush because Harry Potter 'encouraged witchcraft'

I'm not a huge fan. I've read the books and was left yawning somewhat. Still, the stories have kept huge numbers of people, young and old, reading and I'm all for that.

If this is true, it is asinine.

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Post by Aaron Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:47 pm

You’re not showing examples of government sponsored religion TC, "You just know" is nothing more then your opinion and that's all. I don’t suppose you have an example of anything that would refute the article, do you?

As for what shake, fair or otherwise Christians get in India, I don't know nor do I really care. They don't live under the United States Constitution as we in the United States of America thus are not guaranteed the same we are.

As for JK Rowling not receiving a Presidential Medal of Freedom, why should she? And how is her being denied one our government sanctioning one form of religion over another?
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Post by TerryRC Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:05 am

As for JK Rowling not receiving a Presidential Medal of Freedom, why should she? And how is her being denied one our government sanctioning one form of religion over another?

She was as deserving of that honor as the other authors that received it. She didn't get it because of some prejudiced, ignorant christians that had some power.

Wait. That may not be accurate. She may not of received the honor because some politicians didn't want to lose the support of prejudiced, ignorant christians.

You’re not showing examples of government sponsored religion TC

We shouldn't see many because we have groups that are ever vigilant in their mission to keep people from attempting to legislate their religious beliefs. You can find MANY examples of people trying to make laws based upon their ideas of "morality".

Gay marriage bans are a fine example.

Keep your religion out of my government and I'll keep my government out of your religion.

Nothing could be more simple.

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Post by Aaron Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:06 am

TerryRC wrote:As for JK Rowling not receiving a Presidential Medal of Freedom, why should she? And how is her being denied one our government sanctioning one form of religion over another?

She was as deserving of that honor as the other authors that received it. She didn't get it because of some prejudiced, ignorant christians that had some power.

Wait. That may not be accurate. She may not of received the honor because some politicians didn't want to lose the support of prejudiced, ignorant christians.

All that may be true but you failed to answer the second question. How is that our government sanctioning one form of religion over another?

TerryRC wrote:You’re not showing examples of government sponsored religion TC

We shouldn't see many because we have groups that are ever vigilant in their mission to keep people from attempting to legislate their religious beliefs. You can find MANY examples of people trying to make laws based upon their ideas of "morality".

Gay marriage bans are a fine example.

Keep your religion out of my government and I'll keep my government out of your religion.

Nothing could be more simple.

The only problem with your simple statement is I have constitutional protection. You can't say the same.

In all your huff, you've come up with nothing new. You've not shown any cases of state sponsored religion and you've not back up your point of view at all. Is that all you have?
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Post by ziggy Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:16 am

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

"The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind." --Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801. ME 10:237

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1810. ME 12:345
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