Do ya wanna read something funny?

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by wvsasha on Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:26 am

I swear Sam you are deliberately confusing a student with a learning disability and a student with mental impairments.

Learning Disabilities
http://www.medicinenet.com/learning_disability/article.htm

Mental Impairments
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Mental+impairment


According to your statement that "Inclusion of any children that are disruptive, uncontrollable, incapacitated and/or requires a full-time Teacher or Aide to be with and care for them every minute they are at the school. Those lastly so noted are the ones that cost $80K+-/year and nothing educational is achieved." would also include persons such as Stephen Hawking were he in school today. I"m sure he would disagree with your "nothing educational being achieved" statement.

I have a young man with muscular dystrophy - he has a full-time aide to assist in his physical needs. Moving books, reaching things, opening doors, and so on. Should he not be allowed to be in school? To be in the classes which his (normal) intelligence would be appropriate?
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by SamCogar on Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:04 pm

would also include persons such as Stephen Hawking were he in school today.


Yes Sasha, and if I were in school today I would require a 1/8th time Aide.

I have a young man with muscular dystrophy - he has a full-time aide to assist in his physical needs. Moving books, reaching things, opening doors, and so on. Should he not be allowed to be in school? To be in the classes which his (normal) intelligence would be appropriate?

Appropiate for what, Sasha?

Saying "Please" and "Thank you", is appropiate.

.

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by wvsasha on Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:10 pm

"Saying "Please" and "Thank you", is appropiate. [sic]"

And I do so, when appropriate.

Appropriate for what, Sasha?

Should the young man in my example be in regular education, even honors, classes given that his intelligence is "typical" and "normal" - it's only his body that is dysfunctional. Or should he be relegated to the self-contained room where the kids are working on learning to count money and tell time, even though they are 16 and 17 years old, simply because he requires a full-time aide?
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by Stephanie on Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:39 pm

Your example is the exception, not the rule, to the one on one ratio in special education, Sasha. At least, that has been my experience over the course of the past 15 years.

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by wvsasha on Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:05 am

I know my example is an exception - but Sam was painting with an extremely wide roller brush there and just wanted to point that out.
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by SamCogar on Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:40 am

wvsasha wrote:I know my example is an exception - but Sam was painting with an extremely wide roller brush there and just wanted to point that out.

HA, you just like picking on me, Sasha. Very Happy Very Happy

You should very well know that one can not include all possible "little brush strokes" of the "exceptions" when painting a "picture" on any Forum.

It seems like if you all can't find something "specific" that is wrong in my post then you geet p-faced because of the way I say/said it.

Should the young man in my example be in regular education, even honors, classes given that his intelligence is "typical" and "normal" -

If that is what "turns your crank", Sasha, ..... then it is fine with me.

But if all he requires is someone to aid him in "Moving books, reaching things, opening doors, and so on", ...... then I don't think that requires an $18K to $32K/year (with all the entitlements) full-time aide to assist in said physical needs.

I believe that would be a good "part-time job" for someone on welfare, a senior citizen or even a student volunteer.

GEEZUS, Sasha, the DHHS or whoever literally employs HUNDREDS of Home Health Care Aides who work part-time and are only paid Minimum Wage of $7.25/hour.

So, to worse case that, figuring 7 hours per day, for 180 school days, at $7.25/hour it would cost a maximum of $9,135 per school year …. verses …. my previously stated numbers of $18K to $32K/year , … PLUS, … PEIA Insurance, Retirement, sick days off, personal days off, etc. which increases the total costs to $23K to $40K per year per Aide.

So Sasha, if the School employs a part-time aid @ $9,135/year it would be an automatic savings of $13,865 to $30,865/year per employed Aide.

Now dats a lot of beer money being pissed down the drain.



And ps, Sasha, if you are curious about the "blatant waste of resource$" in other entities of the School System ..... just post one and we will hash it out.

Cheers

.

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by wvsasha on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:35 pm

The biggest problem with having someone such as you suggest as an aide to a student of mine is confidentiality.

And most parents don't send their child to school to be an aide to someone else. It's one thing to do it out of courtesy or friendship, it's another to set it up as a semi-permanent arrangement.

Also - this particular young man - has toileting assistance needs and I know of very few senior citizens who would have the strength to be able to provide the support necessary.

I have made these students and their needs my job and my career. So, yes, making sure their needs are met certainly "turns my crank" and I will defend it to the best of my ability - loudly if necessary.

I'm not saying I"m the Inclusion Nazi - there are certainly people who are suited for it and some who aren't. There are some students who aren't identified for SPED services who shouldn't be in a general ed. room - they should be in lock-up. But there are also students who are fully included and even if you followed them around all day to all their classes, you wouldn't know they even qualified for support. Their needs can be met on a consultative schedule with low-profile supports.

I enjoy debates over inclusion/special ed/funding/teachers/etc - but I just don't like overly-large paint brushes.
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by Stephanie on Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:12 pm

HPPA laws apply to home health aides. As a matter of fact, they work a whole lot harder than your average special education aide but they do not enjoy anywhere near the compensation package that a special education teacher enjoys. The citizens cannot afford this. Have you seen the latest projected budget deficits?

Sam may paint with a broad brush, but he's got a legitimate gripe. Your young man may require assistance that seniors couldn't provide, but there sure are a lot aides assigned to a single student who don't. Have you never worked as a volunteer where you had to sign a confidentiality agreement?

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by wvsasha on Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:27 pm

Actually - no I haven't - I guess my volunteer time just hasn't been in places (or back at a time) when such as necessary.

I would like to see budgets for school systems. I get tired of being poor mouthed all the time when I know damn well there's money going down the drain like it's Niagara Falls!
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by Stephanie on Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:19 pm

I have. It can be done. Special education is a HUGE part of any schools budget and a lot of it is because of laws that education unions made damn good and sure were put in place.

Do you really think taxpayers should be on the hook for the kinds of compensation packages being offered to all the aides in all the schools in this country? I do not. A LOT of the money going down the drain is in special education. Does every student currently assigned an aide just to follow them around every school in the country actually require one? I know they don't. Changes need to be made.

A lot of the students being serviced by so many professionals who fall under NEA and AFT union contracts in this country would be better served elsewhere. That IS NOT your fault, but it sure sounds like you're defending the current practice.

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by SamCogar on Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:53 pm

Confidentiality!!! My gawd, Sasha, we are not talking about Lawyer-Client privaledges or Doctor’s patients. Hells bells, iffen ya want to know what’s going on inside the Schools, just ask the kids. HA, me thinks that iffen you employees are worried about “confidentiality” then it’s not for the protection of a student but its for the same reason ya’ll don’t want mothers hiding “video recording cell phones” in student’s bookbags.

And most parents don't send their child to school to be an aide to someone else.

Piffle, no one said that a Principal or Teacher would select a student and order them to be an aide. GEEEZUS, teach those kids something, whether they want to volunteer or you pay them $5 for “babysitting” per Class period they will be learning all kinds of things by doing said. Since jobs in WV are scarce as hen’s teeth they would be getting experience which would come in handy iffen they applied for a job as a Home Health, Hospital or Nursing Home Aide. Do you have something against kids “learning a skill”, or what?

Also - this particular young man - has toileting assistance needs and I know of very few senior citizens who would have the strength to be able to provide the support necessary.


OH GOOD GRIEF, ….. Sasha, …. get out more, ….. get your nose out of the air, …. look around some, …. the Senior Citizens I’m talking about are not Retired Teachers, School Administrators or School Janitors. Ell, my wife just retired at 68 as a School Cook and if you think that’s an easy job go down to the Kitchen on Monday and follow one around while they prepare and feed lunch to everyone. It would probably make you so tired just watching them that you would have to lay down and rest for 20 minutes.

And as far as “toilet assistance” and “lifting, tugging n’ carrying n’ providing support”, …. what the hell do you think those Home Health or Nursing Home Aides do all day long, play Solitaire on a PC?

I have made these students and their needs my job and my career. So, yes, making sure their needs are met certainly "turns my crank" and I will defend it to the best of my ability - loudly if necessary.


And by damn you demand a $25K or $35K “High Buck” full-time Aide at your beck n’ call, right? And ps, it is not you job to see that their needs are met, it is your job to provide their needs. It’s your Superior’s job to see that they are met and that you provide them.

And ya wonder why the Schools are in such frigging bad shape, every employee is in charge of themselves and run their little Fiefdom as they see fit. Now talk about the kaos of a Chinese Fire Drill.

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by wvsasha on Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:58 pm

Actually we are talking about dr./medical/legal information frequently. Many children who receive services are under the care of some sort of physician and their disability directly impacts their education which is how sp. ed. services are brought in. Just because a student has a disability, in and of itself, doesn't make them sp.ed....the disability has to be of such a nature that it negatively impacts their education in some way or other.

And a students' disability doesn't stop at the school door at the end of the day. A student who has behavior issues/disorders at school most likely has them at home and in the neighborhood as well. I have attended meetings where P.Officers have attended as well as having been provided with judges orders with forms to complete regarding school attendance on the part of the child. So I learn a large amount about a child's legal issues frequently. Can't share that sort of info around the local grocery store.

So that information is extremely confidential. We - adults - can be fired and personally sued for sharing information. However, what a student tells you about themselves is their business. What another student tells you that they have observed (or think they know) is their business. An adult can neither confirm nor deny to someone who is not directly part of that child's educational team.

There are times that I do have to fight to make sure that a student has their needs provided for. The example a couple of pages back that Stephanie, I think, made about a student needing a laptop. I have a student who needs such and I've been trying to get one since the 2nd week of school this year. I finally got all the people to agree that this is an appropriate need and that yes, the county will provide it. But this agreement was reached over 2 weeks ago. Have we seen it yet? No. Why did it take 3/4 of a school year for this to be agreed to? I don't have a satisfactory answer to either question. And it pisses me off.

And as for other students who get the "high buck" full-time Aide at their beck and call - I can think of, besides the young man in my example, one other student who has an aide all to himself at my high school solely for his physical needs.

Now we do have sign language interpreters at my school - usually 2-3 students per interpreter. I have no problems with this need being fulfilled.

And I think there are 2 autism mentors that are full-time. My particular jury is still out however, on my thoughts about autism mentors. I have seen cases where they are extremely good at what they provide their student and the child has been enabled to be completely functional in a general ed room. But I've seen other cases.....it's a situation that just has to be a decision made on individual cases by the team.

The mentors and aides at least provide the classroom with a 2nd adult whose sole duty is that student which frees up the gen. ed. teacher to not have to stop the educational process for the other 29 students to deal with behavior issues/etc for the 1 child.
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:59 pm

Stephanie wrote:
ziggy wrote:

Parents get their input very directly and effectively- by electing the board of education that hires teachers, fires them, and otherwise manages the school system, as well as by electing the legislators who make the laws affecting education, and by electing the Circuit Court judges and the Supreme Court judges who more or less police how those laws are used. Do you want a different kind of school system? Then when enough voters agree to elect people who will make and manage the schools as you want them managed they will get elected and make it happen. There should be more measurable objectivity in being a public school teacher than winning or losing a popularity contest among the general public.

Wait, I'll be back in a few. I have to go dig out my waders. Man it's getting deep in here, Ziggy.

The only thing that is deep, Stephanie, is the law- school law. And when enough people agree with you and get politically organized, they can change that. Until then, it does no good to just blame teachers and administrators. It all comes down to the law and politics. GET ORGANIZED- just as every group that gets its agenda through the legislature does.
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by Stephanie on Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:11 pm

It's getting deeper............

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:45 pm

So are you saying that the system does not run on law and politics? How could you possibly expect to change any of it other than via changes in the school laws?
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:50 pm

Aaron wrote:
ziggy wrote:But as it is, candidates for the legislature- which is where major changes would have to be made- know that teachers unions are organized politically far more than parents and the general public are organized politically. And so, politically, teachers have more political influence than the politically disorganized general public.

The bold statement is true only because teachers circumvent state law and serve in the legislature. Under the West Virginia Constitution, section 6-13 states,

Eligibility to seat in Legislature.

No person holding any other lucrative office or employment under this state, the United States, or any foreign government; no member of Congress; and no person who is sheriff, constable, or clerk of any court of record, shall be eligible to a seat in the Legislature.


Teachers are classified as county employees, thus they skirt this provision of the West Virginia Constitution. As all teachers in this state draw 90% or more of their salaries from the state, they are in reality state employees (even Phil Kabler admitted as much in an article a few months back), thus they should be ineligible to serve in the legislature. Were they ineligible to serve as they should be, they would not enjoy near the political influence they do.

No legal challenge on that matter has ever prevailed in the West Virginia Court system. It is not a violation of currently existing law for teachers to serve in the legislature. But if you want it to be, organize to elect people to the legislature who will make it so.
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by Aaron on Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:44 pm

You mean a Warren McGraw type court found teachers to be county teachers?

In West Virginia?

And based on that you say teachers are county employees?

Yeah, Stephanie's right.

It's getting really deep.
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:56 pm

Aaron wrote:You mean a Warren McGraw type court found teachers to be county teachers?

In West Virginia?

And based on that you say teachers are county employees?

Yeah, Stephanie's right.

It's getting really deep.

Teachers are hired by county boards of education. They are paid by county boards of education. Education facilities are owned by county boards of education. If they are fired- it is by their employer- a county board of education.

Are the employees of Wall Street banks that got hundreds of billions of dollars of federal bail-out funds actually employees of the federal government? Are employees of contractors building interstate highways with 90-10 federal-state government financing actually employees of the sate or federal government? Using you logic, every worker on a government funded construction or service project is employed by the government agency furnishing the funds, and not by the contractor who was awarded the contract to build the project.
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by Aaron on Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:09 pm

Funds for teachers pay come from the STATE Board of Education. Minimum pay scales are set by the STATE Board of Education. Mandates’ keeping county teacher pay within a specific pay range is mandated by the STATE Board of Education. Contract language is set by the STATE Board of Education. Work rules are set by the STATE Board of Education. Hiring and firing policies are set by the STATE Board of Education. Benefit packages are set by the STATE Board of Education. Retirement is provided by the State. None of that is under the purview of the county government. Where I come from, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. There's a difference between a contract awarded to a private company and teachers hired, fired and paid under STATE guidelines but I'm not surprised you don't see that difference.

Stephanie's right.

DEEP
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by Stephanie on Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:13 pm

I'm going to need more than just waders.

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by Stephanie on Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:14 pm

Anybody got a hazmat suit and respirator I can borrow?

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by Aaron on Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:14 pm

ziggy wrote:Teachers are hired by county boards of education. They are paid by county boards of education. Education facilities are owned by county boards of education. If they are fired- it is by their employer- a county board of education.

Then why does West Virginia bother wasting millions of a STATE Board of Education?
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by Stephanie on Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:33 pm

Can a county board of education deny a teacher the extensive amount of leave from the classroom required to serve in the Legislature?

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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:37 pm

Stephanie wrote:Can a county board of education deny a teacher the extensive amount of leave from the classroom required to serve in the Legislature?

I do not know for sure, but I believe that it can. If you know for sure otherwise, I am not in a position to dispute it. Again, it depends on what the laws says.
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Re: Do ya wanna read something funny?

Post by ziggy on Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:44 pm

Aaron wrote:
ziggy wrote:Teachers are hired by county boards of education. They are paid by county boards of education. Education facilities are owned by county boards of education. If they are fired- it is by their employer- a county board of education.

Then why does West Virginia bother wasting millions of a STATE Board of Education?

Because the laws, enacted by the state legislature, say to.

Why does West Virginia bother spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a state Department of Transportation which employs highway anchitects and engineers, highway planners, traffic counters, equipment operators, etc., but when so much of that agency's budget is just given to contractors to pay their employees and suppliers to build and maintain roads? And the Davis-Bacon Act sets the wages/salaries paid to many of the employees of government contractors.

So does the clause you cited in the state Constitution prohibit those contractors' employees from serving in the state legislature?
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