Less than half of students proficient in science

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Cato on Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:55 am

Aaron wrote:My stance has been the same since my first post on Jan 26. You're the one running all over the place, crying about administrators and how you wife can't take it anymore, not me.

Yea, right Rolling Eyes I can understand why you ended up unemployed. Tell me how many excuses did you make when the people under you messed up. You remind me of a snotty nosed kid that just got in trouble. He points his finger at everyone else instead of himself.

I hold a management position, Bozo. I bear the ultimate responsibility for the people under my control. Yea, people do things they shouldn't and they bear ressponsibility for their actions, but I bear the responsibility to correct the situation and see that company policy and rules are met. If I can't or won't, I'm gone.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Reagan fire the Air Traffic Controllers when they struck. He didn't let the fear of loosing votes stand in his way, he did what had to be done. Unlike you, he had guts and was well aware fo where the buck stopped.

The same is true of the legislature, be they teachers, former teachers, relatives of teachers, or whatever, they bear the ultimate responsibity for education. If they can't then they need removed. If you really come push to shove, we have the system the public wants, because they keep sending the same trash back to office.

Oh I guess you'll now tell me the most of the public either teaches, was a teacher, or is a relative of a teacher.

Aaron wrote:As you want to lay the blame elsewhere, and keep crying about "vote them out", ask wifey this. If teachers aren't hampering educational reform, why don't THEY elect new union leadership with the task of improving education, not securing jobs? As she's got nothing else to do, tell her to run for a leadership positon and make the changes.


Why don't you. After my wife has a vested interest and shouldn't run, according to you.


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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Stephanie on Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:45 am

Aaron makes an extremely valid point. If rank & file teachers are unhappy with the results of the tactics employed by their union officials, they should run for leadership positions within their unions to create change.

Why don't they?

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Cato on Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:32 pm

Stephanie wrote:Aaron makes an extremely valid point. If rank & file teachers are unhappy with the results of the tactics employed by their union officials, they should run for leadership positions within their unions to create change.

Why don't they?

Your buddy, Aaron also makes the point that teachers have run, won, and now control the legislature. Since according to him they have a vested interest to make policy that favors teachers, that is what puts in the position you and Aaron find yourselves today.

It would appear to me that if you and Aaron are dissatified with the education system, you ought to get off your dead ARSE and run, instead of whining about it, playing libertarian, and making sacrifice to Ron Paul. Oh! I know, you and he live in the real world.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Stephanie on Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:39 pm

I served my time, Cato. I did four years and if I learned anything during those four years it is that is not something I would ever do again while my children are young. I spent way too much time away from Scott, Richard & Katie when they needed me. I won't even consider it again until Loyd is finished with high school.

So you can back the hell off telling ME to get off my ass. Been there, done that.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Cato on Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:44 pm

Stephanie wrote:I served my time, Cato. I did four years and if I learned anything during those four years it is that is not something I would ever do again while my children are young. I spent way too much time away from Scott, Richard & Katie when they needed me. I won't even consider it again until Loyd is finished with high school.

So you can back the hell off telling ME to get off my ass. Been there, done that.

I meant exactly what I said and I ain't backing off telling to get the hell of your ass. You people bitch and whine, until it comes time to take action and then you run for cover. As far as your politican years goes, I imagine you fell right in line with the rest of the gaggle of baffoons.

By the way, dispite what you and Aaron think, changes aren't going to come from inside politics.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Stephanie on Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:31 pm

What you think or imagine is of no consequence, Cato.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Cato on Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:52 pm

Stephanie wrote:What you think or imagine is of no consequence, Cato.

Right back at ya, sweetie pie.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Aaron on Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:39 am

Cato wrote:my wife has a vested interest in the status quo.

That's what you meant. Thanks for admitting that she and many of her fellow union members place their employment status above the educational needs of our students. In this one post, you have admitted that what I have been saying all along is the truth.
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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Cato on Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:57 pm

Aaron wrote:
Cato wrote:my wife has a vested interest in the status quo.

That's what you meant. Thanks for admitting that she and many of her fellow union members place their employment status above the educational needs of our students. In this one post, you have admitted that what I have been saying all along is the truth.

Grasping for straws are you now. You are the one that said she and her fellow teachers have a vested interest in the status quo. I just repeated what you said.

You are a real laugh. You have no argument. Like so many any more you whine and point fingers. So I guess the best I can hope for from you is more of your wife is this and that because she used to teach. What a joke you are.


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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Aaron on Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:57 pm

You brought your wife into this, not me. I merely stated the facts to which you've (as anyone can plainly see from your comments) come around to agreeing with me.

As I said, you admitted that what I am saying is true. Thank you.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Cato on Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:42 am

Aaron wrote:You brought your wife into this, not me. I merely stated the facts to which you've (as anyone can plainly see from your comments) come around to agreeing with me.

As I said, you admitted that what I am saying is true. Thank you.


If you say so. Rolling Eyes

This ought to be good. I was wondering how you propose the problem gets fixed? Afterall, according to the board Ron Paulite you all work in the real world and thus West Virginia will be deprived of your great and infinate wisdom in these matters.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Aaron on Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:01 pm

I say so Cato but I don't expect you to get it.
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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Cato on Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:37 pm

Aaron wrote:I say so Cato but I don't expect you to get it.

This all about insulting me any way you can, isn't it. Only the simple minded do things like that however, ain't that right Aaron.

I notice you skipped the question I asked, so I'll post it again.

Question for Aaron that cato wrote:

This ought to be good. I was wondering how you propose the problem gets fixed? Afterall, according to the board Ron Paulite you all work in the real world and thus West Virginia will be deprived of your great and infinate wisdom in these matters.



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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Aaron on Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:43 pm

Honestly, I'm not trying to insult you even though that's what it sounds like when I say that I just really don't think you're a smart individual and that if you're IQ is anywhere near average, I would be greatly surprised.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses and I'm sure you have yours strengths as an individual but unfortunately, intelligence is not one of them.

Questions like the one above are what I base my opinion on as what you ask makes no sense at all. What does Ron Paul have to do with the educational system in West Virginia?

If you want to know how to fix our educational system, you start by teaching kids. We should extend our school year but that's not going to happen as we can't even get teachers to come to work during spring break to ensure 180 days of instruction because it violates their 43 week calendar.

When Erik Wells brought up charter schools, Judy Hale and her union came out in full force to kill the bill in the legislator.

Anytime strengthening the curriculum, requiring teachers to be proficient in what they teach or paying math and science teachers, an area where we have slipped once again in worldwide rankings, is discussed those measures are defeated by teachers and their unions.

Likewise, rating teachers and ridding the classrooms of ineffective teachers is dismissed as a return to the cronyism of yesteryear and defeated by teachers and their unions.

One measure that would free up more good teachers and rid the system of poor ones via supply and demand is to eliminate compulsory attendance laws yet West Virginia raised the age from 16 to 17 and teacher unions support raising that level to 18 years of age. It seems that teachers are more interested in guranteeing more students instead of improving education.

If you want to know how to fix the educational problem in West Virginia, the first step is simple. Classify teachers to what they rightfully are, state employees and prevent them from serving in the state legislature where they currently write all the laws regarding the industry in which they work. With this, you eliminate the hold unions have on the legislature as they're not dealing with their own.

The next step is to eliminate county board of educations from 55 to the RESA model of 8 and increase the number of those who serve on those boards from 5 to 40 or more, guaranteeing each county representation and requiring a super majority to pass any changes to set standards.

Next, eliminate the requirement that school administrators are former teachers which would eliminate the only true cronyism system in this state and replace them with true leaders.

Allow parents to send kids to school wherever they want by forcing education dollars to follow the kid whether it be private, another public school, a charter school or homebound students. This would require the elimination of extra-curricular activities but if the goal is to educate the kids, there's nothing wrong with that. Besides, most kids who go to college for sports other then football do so via outside teams anyhow so that's not a huge sacrifice.

The problem is, we as a state cannot and will not do any of the above because every measure threatens the job of a teacher and we all know that’s not going to happen thanks to teachers and their unions.

And that is the same thing I’ve been saying for 6 pages but as I said in my last post, you just don’t get it.
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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by ohio county on Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:47 pm

Education is an area that represents pure socialism. It has been nationalized and the means of production are owned lock, stock, and barrel by the state. Precious few private competitors exist and none will be allowed. Ask your neighbors of color how they feel about about education. It is an area that mirrors that of other instances of socialism in action. It is marked by abject failure and the impoverishment of it's intended recipients. Why would anybody expect a different result? This is the same result we've seen every time socialism has been tried.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Stephanie on Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:51 pm

Tell it, Jimmy!

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by ohio county on Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:54 pm

There are a precious few who show candor on this subject. Witness: "If you love your school system, thank socialism!" They don't deny it much anymore. They're talking about it openly now.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Cato on Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:32 am

Aaron wrote: Honestly, I'm not trying to insult you even though that's what it sounds like when I say that I just really don't think you're a smart individual and that if you're IQ is anywhere near average, I would be greatly surprised.

Let's have a little honesty. You are right, I'm not a smart individual, in today's terms anyways, and the only time my IQ was ever tested it was around average. So you win there.

I had this whole thesis I was going to write about all the problems within education. The fact of the matter is Ohio is right. Education is pure socialism. It belongs to the state lock, stock, and barrel. Even if you got your way and teachers could no longer serve in the legislature, the AFT and WVEA would still be able to exert an extreme amount of influance and I fail to see where education would be any further ahead.

If you want to straighten education out, government influance has got to go. I personally, am a supporter of both home and private education. This isn't to say that public education shouldn't exist, however, I am saying the competition would do it wonders. I also beleive education should not be mandatory at any age level. Coupled with that is that parents need to accept full and complete responsibility for their offspring. Another beauty of the removal of government influance is that education can nolonger be used as an indoctrination tool, nor can the government say what is and isn't to be taught.

Additionally, I have come to the conclusion education should not be completely paid for with tax dollars. Education should be paid for, at least in part, by the parents of the kids that are attending school. When people have to pay for something, they have a bit more respect for it. I think that is why private and home education seems to work better that public education.

I could go on, but I think I'll stop here. As I said, when I read your posts you seem to be saying teacher's influance in government got us in this mess and be tweeking the government we can get out. I don't think so. I have never seen the government do anything right and I don't thnk it is about to start.


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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Aaron on Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:25 pm

The key is competition. Even if you keep it public, if you allow dollars to follow kids to not only the district they choose but the school they choose as well then you can bet administrations will find a way to get rid of ineffective teachers and improve education but without competition, it's more about employment and less about educating our youth.
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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Stephanie on Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:31 pm

On that note:

School choice is remedy for destitute states

Empowering parents to choose the best school for their children - whether public or pri- vate, regardless of ZIP code - isn’t just the right thing to do. With states struggling to overcome yawning budget deficits, school choice makes good fiscal sense. Governors and state legislatures across the nation are facing a grim financial reality: More than $100 billion in federal education stimulus money is gone. Another bailout isn’t forthcoming, and voters have no great appetite for additional tax increases. After years of pumping up school spending, real cuts are coming. In fact, they’re overdue.

With resources tight, the smarter lawmakers and governors are proposing some ambitious reforms. These include establishing new teacher-evaluation rules and ending the practice of “last hired, first fired” that punishes younger teachers and protects time-servers; removing expensive class-size mandates; and renegotiating “Cadillac” pension plans.

Excellent ideas all. But states such as Florida, Indiana, New Jersey, Ohio and Pennsylvania are also considering legislation to establish or expand opportunity scholarship programs currently offering low-income parents or parents with disabled children the means to send their children to the school of their choice instead of one determined by their residence.

Opponents argue tax-credit scholarship programs are expensive, deprive traditional public schools of resources and use taxpayer dollars to enrich private or even religious enterprises. Despite these claims, the programs have expanded slowly but steadily, successfully raising academic achievement where they’ve been tried in 14 states and the District of Columbia.

In addition, study after study shows school choice saves money. The Foundation for Educational Choice estimated the 12 voucher and tuition tax-credit programs operating before the 2006-07 school year produced a 15-year cost savings of $444 million.

According to the same study, Pennsylvania’s tax-credit program had saved Keystone State residents $144 million since 2001. Florida’s trailblazing McKay Scholarship Program for disabled children saved taxpayers $139 million in its first seven years. Another study by University of Arkansas economist Robert M. Costrell concluded Milwaukee’s Parental Choice Program has saved Wisconsin taxpayers money every year since 2000, with estimated savings reaching $31.9 million in 2008.

Far from depriving states of limited resources, choice makes more money available for other uses.

As for enriching private schools, it’s worth noting the vast disparity in per-pupil spending between public and private schools. Whereas New York or New Jersey spends upwards of $20,000 or more per pupil per year, and Washington, D.C. spends more than $25,000 per pupil each year, the average annual private-school tuition is just $8,500, according to the National Center for Education Statistics.

A robust system of school choice, in which funding followed students and wasn’t filtered through a clogged sieve of bureaucracy, would provide further benefits. Traditional public schools currently operating as de facto monopolies would be forced to compete for students. Schools that consistently failed to persuade enough parents to trust them with their children would no longer be guaranteed funding from the state.

When businesses compete for customers on an even playing field, people get better value, businesses prosper and the economy grows. Opponents of school choice often argue public education is somehow different and shouldn’t be subject to “the whims and caprices of the market.” But the truth is the current system has failed to do its job of creating knowledgeable, self-governing citizens. It’s time to allow choice.

State and federal law already provide an option for officials to shut down failing schools and allow parents to send their children to higher-performing public schools nearby. The next short, logical step is to give parents the means to choose a higher-performing (and typically more cost-effective) private school if they want.

This would have the additional value of empowering parents. After all, nobody is more likely to understand their children’s individual needs and concerns, and parents have much stronger incentives to choose the right school for their children than a government bureaucrat.

All these reasons - fiscal sanity, taxpayer savings, competition and parental empowerment - suggest the time is right to embrace school choice.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by ohio county on Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:41 pm

DC schools spend more per pupil than most other school systems and parents consider it "hitting the lottery" to get their children into alternative schools. Ask any parent of color what they think about alternative schools. The emperor has no clothes.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Stephanie on Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:45 am

Are you familiar with the story of the Akron mom imprisoned for using her father's address to send her children to a better school? The judge said she needed to make an example of her. Yep, that judge has taught the black parents not to try to send their inner-city children to the burbs. wtg

Ohio Mom Kelley Williams-Bolar Jailed for Sending Kids to Better School District

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Cato on Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:12 pm

Stephanie wrote:Are you familiar with the story of the Akron mom imprisoned for using her father's address to send her children to a better school? The judge said she needed to make an example of her. Yep, that judge has taught the black parents not to try to send their inner-city children to the burbs. wtg

Ohio Mom Kelley Williams-Bolar Jailed for Sending Kids to Better School District

Government Schools are all about indoctrination and as someone said, Aaron I think, employment. It isn't about education. The only way this will ever change is to remove government from education. That isn't going to be easy, but if we turly want our chidlren to succeed that is what is going to have to be done.

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Stephanie on Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:34 pm

I did that!

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Re: Less than half of students proficient in science

Post by Cato on Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:08 pm

Stephanie wrote:I did that!

The catch is it takes more than just you. However, you will have given your kid a substancial headstart in life, which will benefit them to no end.

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