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WV Public Employees would protest this.

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Aaron
SamCogar
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Post by SamCogar Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:44 am

Stephanie wrote:I don't see what difference it makes whether or not some GPS device can track and log your location. Even if the GPS device determine where you are and when you arrived and when you leave, what's to prevent you from taking along your fishing pole and tackle box and doing a little fishing? How would GPS distinguish between you collecting samples (or whatever it is you do) and just kicking back and reading a good book?

Steph, Terry has turned this string into a "beat around the bush" conversation.

Aaron and I have been "talking" ......... GPS tracking,

and TRC keeps arguing and CHA by "talking" ........ GPS location.

Terry doesn't need a frigging GPS to locate "where he is", ....... GEEEZUS, he knows where he is unless his FUBARed mind got him lost in the woods somewhere.

Stephanie, with GPS location, one ONLY turns their unit "ON" when they want to know the latitude/longitude of their "current location" so that they can either record it or check it relative to their "intended location". Like iffen you find a "good fishing spot" say 40 miles offshore, you record the GPS location. Next week you want to go back there, you just turn on your GPS and watch it as you steer that way or with "hi-buck" ones you just push a "go" button and it will take you there.(autopilot)

With GPS tracking, one's unit is ALWAYS turned "ON", ...... and at a "preset timed interval" (every minute, every 10 minutes, every hour) the GPS unit will do one of two things and I'm not sure which: 1) it will "take a latitude/longitude reading" and transmit that along with its "identity" (serial #, unit #, destination address, etc.) to an overhead satellite which will relay said info back to earth to said "destination address", ....... or, 2) it will transmit its "identity" (serial #, unit #, destination address, etc. like a Cell phone does) to said overhead satellites and if received and relayed by three (3) of them, the latitude/longitude of the GPS unit will then be calculated and recorded. (this is how the "beeper signal" in downed aircraft or life boats/rafts work.)

Either way, the "home base" can track the location of the GPS unit in "real time" or plot its "track" with time and date whenever it wants to.

The best way to hide from a "tracker" is to somehow turn it "off".

cheers

SamCogar

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Post by Stephanie Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:04 am

Sam,

I hear what you're saying, but I still fail to see the point.

Look, we all know that there are people who will work very hard to avoid working. I'm sure Terry will admit he has encountered some working for the state. However, being able to have a satellite or some other tracking device tell you the location of an employee really isn't that valuable by itself. Also, I have no doubt that there are remote locations with heavy tree cover that those satellites can't pick up.

No, I say a better solution would be to hire, retain, and promote quality workers in the first place. If you get rid of the dead wood, there isn't any need for GPS tracking devices or hand scanning timeclocks. I don't think Terry is trying to "beat around the bush". I think he's done a very good job of pointing out that no system is fool proof and at some point employers have to have a little confidence in their employees or those employees are of no value.
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Post by ziggy Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:09 am

Stephanie, when will you give it up and realize that your mind and mine and TRC's minds are FUBARed, and that SamCogar knows everything about everything- including about where I didn't live and what my family didn't experience 50 years ago?
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Post by Stephanie Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:21 am

LOL

No, no........Sam's a pretty intelligent guy. He's just stubborn, a bit cranky, and very opinionated. I'm stubborn, frequently cranky, and extremely opinionated.
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Post by SamCogar Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:30 am

Stephanie wrote:Sam,

I hear what you're saying, but I still fail to see the point.

Look, we all know that there are people who will work very hard to avoid working. I'm sure Terry will admit he has encountered some working for the state. However, being able to have a satellite or some other tracking device tell you the location of an employee really isn't that valuable by itself. Also, I have no doubt that there are remote locations with heavy tree cover that those satellites can't pick up.

No, I say a better solution would be to hire, retain, and promote quality workers in the first place. If you get rid of the dead wood, there isn't any need for GPS tracking devices or hand scanning timeclocks. I don't think Terry is trying to "beat around the bush". I think he's done a very good job of pointing out that no system is fool proof and at some point employers have to have a little confidence in their employees or those employees are of no value.

Well Stephanie, until you get around to putting your "better solution" into practice, ....... ya better be using "GPS tracking" to try to keep them a wee bit honest.

cheers

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Post by Aaron Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:08 pm

Stephanie wrote:Sam,

I hear what you're saying, but I still fail to see the point.

Look, we all know that there are people who will work very hard to avoid working. I'm sure Terry will admit he has encountered some working for the state. However, being able to have a satellite or some other tracking device tell you the location of an employee really isn't that valuable by itself. Also, I have no doubt that there are remote locations with heavy tree cover that those satellites can't pick up.

No, I say a better solution would be to hire, retain, and promote quality workers in the first place. If you get rid of the dead wood, there isn't any need for GPS tracking devices or hand scanning timeclocks. I don't think Terry is trying to "beat around the bush". I think he's done a very good job of pointing out that no system is fool proof and at some point employers have to have a little confidence in their employees or those employees are of no value.

You're missing the gist of the conversation. This isn't about workers trying not to work. This is about field employees being able to 'clock in and out'. I think it can be done. Sam seems to concur. TC doesn't.

I agree with you though, employee turnover is a killer when it comes to the bottom line. Companies are better off to pay a little more to retain workers then to lose them.
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Post by TerryRC Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:34 am

You're missing the gist of the conversation. This isn't about workers trying not to work. This is about field employees being able to 'clock in and out'. I think it can be done. Sam seems to concur. TC doesn't.

I didn't say that. I said it won't work for everyone, all the time.

I also want to see the handheld that will pinpoint you with just one satellite. The system that I use (Garmin 12-CX) needs at least three, more if you want accuracy better than .25 km.

So, since you are so tech savvy, what is the system that you have come up with and how much is is going to cost per person?

Also, Sam, I leave my unit on the whole time I am on the road and just mark waypoints as I need them. My trips ARE tracked. You would be amazed at the number of points that are averaged/estimated due to poor or no coverage.

Oh, never mind. Just call me a liar, again, and have done with it.

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Post by Aaron Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:25 am

TerryRC wrote:So, since you are so tech savvy, what is the system that you have come up with and how much is is going to cost per person?

Remember grasshopper, it was I who said I WAS NOT tech savy. It is you that believes you are smarter then everyone else. You tell us the answer to the question.
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Post by SamCogar Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:21 am

TerryRC wrote:Also, Sam, I leave my unit on the whole time I am on the road and just mark waypoints as I need them. My trips ARE tracked. You would be amazed at the number of points that are averaged/estimated due to poor or no coverage.

Oh, never mind. Just call me a liar, again, and have done with it.

Just as you need them, ...... huh. Razz Razz

And "NO", I would not be amazed ....... in that you ARE THE ONE who decides "when" to mark a point.

If your GPS was programmed to "mark a point" with a date/time "stamp" at specific time intervals, ....... then your Supervisor, Boss, Manager, whatever, .......... knows where you were on any given day ......... and can easily extrapolate/interpolate where you most probably were if a few "marked points" are missing due to poor or no coverage.

"Marking a point" before one's starting up a Mingo/Logan County hollow, ....... then stopping at the 1st beer joint and spending the day, ........ then "marking a point" when one get back to the mouth of said hollow ........ doesn't confirm to anyone where said one spent the day. Razz Razz Razz Razz

.

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Post by TerryRC Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:12 am

Remember grasshopper, it was I who said I WAS NOT tech savy. It is you that believes you are smarter then everyone else. You tell us the answer to the question.

Tech savvy enough to tell me I was fibbing, though, aren't you Aaron.

And "NO", I would not be amazed ....... in that you ARE THE ONE who decides "when" to mark a point.

If your GPS was programmed to "mark a point" with a date/time "stamp" at specific time intervals, ....... then your Supervisor, Boss, Manager, whatever, .......... knows where you were on any given day ......... and can easily extrapolate/interpolate where you most probably were if a few "marked points" are missing due to poor or no coverage.


Sam , the GPS also marks traveling waypoints to mark your route. Mine holds 5000. I can set the unit to mark them every couple of minutes (while walking) or every few seconds (while driving), but I can't stop it from marking those points as long as the unit is on.

I'm guessing that you have never used one, have you?

Anyhow, since you guys know enough about this to call me a liar and/or ignorant, why don't you come up with an accurate and inexpensive system that will work for people that go way off the beaten track for their jobs.

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Post by Aaron Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:25 am

TerryRC wrote:Remember grasshopper, it was I who said I WAS NOT tech savy. It is you that believes you are smarter then everyone else. You tell us the answer to the question.

Tech savvy enough to tell me I was fibbing, though, aren't you Aaron.


You were the one that said you had a Garmin. They're web page proved you wrong.
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Post by TerryRC Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:38 am

You were the one that said you had a Garmin. They're web page proved you wrong.

I have an older Garmin and it works exactly as I have described. That isn't a "belief" or an "advertisement", that is a "fact".

If you don't care to believe that, fine. You have a long track record of keeping facts from interfering with your beliefs. I'd hate to destroy such a run.

Also, Euclid, I'd like to see how one captures one's accurate position with just one satellite. Perhaps I'll take a look at their website.

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Post by Aaron Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:19 am

TerryRC wrote:You were the one that said you had a Garmin. They're web page proved you wrong.

I have an older Garmin and it works exactly as I have described. That isn't a "belief" or an "advertisement", that is a "fact".

If you don't care to believe that, fine. You have a long track record of keeping facts from interfering with your beliefs. I'd hate to destroy such a run.

Also, Euclid, I'd like to see how one captures one's accurate position with just one satellite. Perhaps I'll take a look at their website.

By a new one English teacher.
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Post by TerryRC Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:01 am

By a new one English teacher.

Why should I buy one for doing work for the state? You will be buying it for me.

Also, I'm writing a book titled, Improper Use of Apostrophes. Thank you for your previous contributions.

One other issue that is mathematically proven you need one point (x) to find your location on a line. You need two points (x,y) to find yourself on a plane. You need three points (x,y,z) to find yourself in a cube. Thus the need for at least three satellites to establish instantaneous position and elevation.

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Post by shermangeneral Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:07 am

Well Terry with technology zooming along the way it is, I figure it's just a matter of time till every employee has to wear one.

Even inside big plants and factories, warehouses, etc.

Also Steph the tree cover will have no bearing on it.

The ones in our trucks work even when we are backed totally inside a factory or warehouse to load/unload.

I got my two oldest sons each one for Xmas about 6 or 7 years ago and was amazed at what they could do even then.

My son in California credits his with getting him out of a pickle when he was marooned by a snowstorm that dumped 3 feet of snow on his remote location.

But in a moving vehicle they will record your speed and location. And like I say those were purchased several years ago for around $150. They were Garmins, but I forget the model #.

Also I was flying some back then and a lot of recreational pilots were buying them because they perform better than the older instruments onboard most planes at the time.

BTW Terry R. I meant to ask you the other day but had to leave b4 I got around to it.

Do you deal any with international shipments coming into WV?

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Post by Aaron Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:32 am

TerryRC wrote:By a new one English teacher.

Why should I buy one for doing work for the state? You will be buying it for me.

Also, I'm writing a book titled, Improper Use of Apostrophes. Thank you for your previous contributions.

One other issue that is mathematically proven you need one point (x) to find your location on a line. You need two points (x,y) to find yourself on a plane. You need three points (x,y,z) to find yourself in a cube. Thus the need for at least three satellites to establish instantaneous position and elevation.

Bie a new one eNglish teacher and submit you're reciept too the state.
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Post by SamCogar Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:43 pm

TerryRC wrote:
One other issue that is mathematically proven you need one point (x) to find your location on a line. You need two points (x,y) to find yourself on a plane. You need three points (x,y,z) to find yourself in a cube. Thus the need for at least three satellites to establish instantaneous position and elevation.

UH, Terry, I noticed you used the word "instantaneous" there in your above sentence.

Care to tell us why you did that and/or what you mean by its use? geek geek geek

And don't be fibbing to me, either.

Cause iffen you don't tell Aaron, then I will.

.

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Post by TerryRC Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:42 am

UH, Terry, I noticed you used the word "instantaneous" there in your above sentence.

Ah, Sam, do you want to nitpick again...

Perhaps I should have said "at the speed of RF". I notice you have no problems with my geometry, anyway.

Bie a new one eNglish teacher and submit you're reciept too the state.

Aaron. Embarrassed, are we?

I won't be reimbursed for it if I have already been provided adequate equipment by the state.

What, you want us all [state employees] to be chipped but you don't want to pay for it? Quel suprise!

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Post by Aaron Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:48 am

TerryRC wrote:
Aaron. Embarrassed, are we?

I won't be reimbursed for it if I have already been provided adequate equipment by the state.

What, you want us all [state employees] to be chipped but you don't want to pay for it? Quel suprise!

I don't know if you're embarrassed. I'm not. Is their a reason I should be?

If I had a nickel fore every grammar mistake I made, i wouldn't have to work for a living.

And I have no idea what you mean by "chipped". You'll have to explain that one.
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Post by TerryRC Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:53 am

And I have no idea what you mean by "chipped". You'll have to explain that one.

Don't be disingenuous. You want state employees to be trackable, don't you? You know exactly what I mean/

I don't know if you're embarrassed. I'm not. Is their a reason I should be?

If I had a nickel fore every grammar mistake I made, i wouldn't have to work for a living.


It goes to your credibility.

Why should we take your arguments about how much you KNOW (why we were in 'Nam, why we are in Iraq, why Bush saved the country, et cetera, ad nauseaum) when you don't know when to use "your" and "you're"?

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Post by SamCogar Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:22 am

TerryRC wrote:
(Sam)
TerryRC wrote:One other issue that is mathematically proven you need one point (x) to find your location on a line. You need two points (x,y) to find yourself on a plane. You need three points (x,y,z) to find yourself in a cube. Thus the need for at least three satellites to establish instantaneous position and elevation.

UH, Terry, I noticed you used the word "instantaneous" there in your above sentence.

Ah, Sam, do you want to nitpick again...

Perhaps I should have said "at the speed of RF". I notice you have no problems with my geometry, anyway.

NO, wasn't nitpicking your inclusion of "instantaneous", ...... but in that is was uncalled for, ....... unnecessary, ...... I figured you must have included said as a potential CYA.

TRC, you might not have a problem with your geometry, ....... but it does appear that you have a problem with GPS satellite locations.

The space segment (SS) comprises the orbiting GPS satellites, or Space Vehicles (SV) in GPS parlance. The GPS design originally called for 24 SVs, 8 each in three circular orbital planes,[6] but this was modified to 6 planes with 4 satellites each.[7] The orbital planes are centered on the Earth, not rotating with respect to the distant stars.[8] The six planes have approximately 55° inclination (tilt relative to Earth's equator) and are separated by 60° right ascension of the ascending node (angle along the equator from a reference point to the orbit's intersection).[2] The orbits are arranged so that at least six satellites are always within line of sight from almost everywhere on Earth's surface.[9]

As of September 2007, there are 31 actively broadcasting satellites in the GPS constellation. The additional satellites improve the precision of GPS receiver calculations by providing redundant measurements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System

Thus Terry baby, iffen a GPS Locator "burps" out a signal, ...... it is highly likely that at the very least 4 satellites will "hear it" .......... and pin-point its location.

.

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Post by TerryRC Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:00 am

Thus Terry baby, iffen a GPS Locator "burps" out a signal, ...... it is highly likely that at the very least 4 satellites will "hear it" .......... and pin-point its location.

Except the GPS doesn't burp out the signal, the satellites do. Have you ever used one, personally, or are you passing on info from secondary sources?

Hard to catch that signal if there is little horizon (like in a deep valley).

I used the word "instantaneous" before because you can get a point using one satellite and multiple readings but it takes beaucoup time. The satellite can't be geosynchronous, however, and the GPS unit can't move until it takes multiple readings. Most GPS units are not set up to do this for multiple reasons including accuracy and the fact that it is time-consuming.

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Post by SamCogar Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:43 am

TerryRC wrote:Thus Terry baby, iffen a GPS Locator "burps" out a signal, ...... it is highly likely that at the very least 4 satellites will "hear it" .......... and pin-point its location.

Except the GPS doesn't burp out the signal, the satellites do. Have you ever used one, personally, or are you passing on info from secondary sources?

Hard to catch that signal if there is little horizon (like in a deep valley).

Cease with your CYA bullshidt, TRC.

If ....... "The orbits are arranged so that at least six satellites are always within line of sight from almost everywhere on Earth's surface", it matters little which direction the signal is being transmitted. If a GPS unit can receive one (1) signal it can receive all six (6), whether it can decode all 6 or not.

And just because your CHEAPY GPS unit doesn't "burp" out a signal whereby those satellites can "pinpoint" its location ........ doesn't mean that that is an impossible feat.

TerryRC wrote:I used the word "instantaneous" before because you can get a point using one satellite and multiple readings but it takes beaucoup time. The satellite can't be geosynchronous, however, and the GPS unit can't move until it takes multiple readings. Most GPS units are not set up to do this for multiple reasons including accuracy and the fact that it is time-consuming.

AH SO, now you decided to un-lie it, huh?

I knew that was nothing more than a CYA insertion. Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

.

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Post by TerryRC Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:56 am

Sam, so you admit that the GPS units don't burp out the signal? What good would it do even if it could?

I have yet to see you man up and admit that you made a mistake.

Sidetrack us again, like you did with Jules Verne when I pointed out that Clarke didn't invent the comm satellite.

I knew I shouldn't bother to explain why I used the word "instantaneous".

It wasn't a CYA as I explained that most (or all) GPS units are not set to use one satellite with multiple readings.

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Post by SamCogar Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:37 am

TerryRC wrote:Sam, so you admit that the GPS units don't burp out the signal? What good would it do even if it could?

I have yet to see you man up and admit that you made a mistake.

TRC, you are just proving that you are a typical devious dishonest state employee who will always blame their ignorance and stupidity on someone else. You admitted YOUR GPS couldn't do said, ........ but I made no such admission.

TerryRC wrote:Sidetrack us again, like you did with Jules Verne when I pointed out that Clarke didn't invent the comm satellite.

TRC, you point out a lot of things, ....... most of which are devious and intentional misinterpretation of what was actually stated.

TerryRC wrote:I knew I shouldn't bother to explain why I used the word "instantaneous".

It wasn't a CYA as I explained that most (or all) GPS units are not set to use one satellite with multiple readings.

AH SO, I see you must have done some "reading up" on that after I queried your arse about your use of the word "instantaneous".

Whaja figure out during your "reading up", big boy, .......... that some satellites can take multiple readings of one (1) signal at different locations on its antennae(s) ...... and execute a triangulation to locate the signal source? Razz Razz Razz

Just PFM, ....... BIG BOY, ........... just PFM. Laughing

.

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