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Why sure nuff its the cause, parents always know best

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Post by Stephanie Thu May 15, 2008 7:06 pm

Yes, if the vaccines have been proven extremely safe, with only very mild side effects and with careful attention paid to the length of efficacy, with some very strict limitations. Diseases with high mortality rates spread by casual contact, sure. Diseases like chicken pox and HPV, no.
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Post by TerryRC Fri May 16, 2008 5:57 am

Diseases like chicken pox and HPV, no.

If you had ever seen someone almost weep with pain when the wind blows from the neuralgia associated with shingles, you might think differently.

If you stop and look at the number of cancers (many that have substantial mortality) that are directly correlated with HPV (and how much of the population carries it), you might think differently.

Polio has a relatively low mortality. Based on that argument, why vaccinate?

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Post by Stephanie Fri May 16, 2008 10:35 am

TerryRC wrote:Diseases like chicken pox and HPV, no.

If you had ever seen someone almost weep with pain when the wind blows from the neuralgia associated with shingles, you might think differently.

If you stop and look at the number of cancers (many that have substantial mortality) that are directly correlated with HPV (and how much of the population carries it), you might think differently.

Polio has a relatively low mortality. Based on that argument, why vaccinate?

Terry,

I have been treated for shingles. You're not going to tell me anything I don't already know about shingles. What's more, I looked around and I couldn't find a single claim that varicella vaccine protects against shingles. Most sites I looked at warned it doesn't protect against shingles. As a matter of fact, in my very cursory google search on the chicken pox vaccine & shingles, I found a study indicating that immunizing children for chicken pox actually dramatically increases the incidence of shingles for older people.

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=12896

I am well aware HPV infection can lead to cancer later in life. However, HPV is not spread through casual contact, nor does this vaccine protect against all strains of the virus. This vaccine is very new, approved only recently. When vaccines are new, such as this one, the long term effects are never known. The length of efficacy isn't known. Do you know that 10 years later when that 11 y/o child is a footloose and carefree college co-ed is still going to receive good protection from that innoculation? Do the scientists? I think not. This is a personal decision best made by the family with advice from their physician. Government officials who have been lobbied, wined & dined by the very corporation pimping this vaccine are not entitled to interfer with this private decision.

Polio is a dreadful, debilitating disease that cripples. While the mortality rate isn't very high with good medical treatment, there are long term quality of life issues that need to be considered. I don't believe forced vaccination of polio in this country is the best way to prevent another polio outbreak here in America. No vaccine is 100% effective and the vaccine I received 40 years ago is probably unlikely to protect me today......much the same way the small pox vaccine I received as an infant wouldn't protect me in the event some whack job decided to unleash that hell on our nation.

Instead the answer is to require medical exams and vaccination of people wishing to enter our nation, with intense focus on those individuals from regions of the world where polio still exists. Of course this would require Congress actually take steps to secure our ports and borders. The threat of a polio outbreak in 21st century America should be enough to get them off their primarily useless asses and do something about it.
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Post by SamCogar Fri May 16, 2008 1:31 pm

WOW, it is really surprising how many people now days are ……………….

Scared of living …….. and afraid of dying.

Getting inoculations for all the known diseases are becoming akin to buying “virus” protection for your PC.

In reality neither is gonna save your ass or you computer from getting infected …… unless the “experts” figure out what it is and engineer a “blocker” for it before either infects you or your PC. But those "experts" never know it exists until after it has already infected and sickened many victims.

Maybe you don’t know it but the “yearly flu shot” that bout everyone scrambles to get is only a “best guess” that it will prevent a serious flu outbreak.

If someone engineers a really subtle and tricky virus for PCs ….. it will infect millions of computers before anything can be done about it and its possible that it can’t be “stopped” before it destroys all data and programs other than what is “saved” on a removable media.

And if someone bio-engineers a really subtle and tricky new or modified virus for infecting humans ……….. it will infect millions and millions of people before anything can be done about it and its possible that it will instigate a pandemic that is “unstoppable” and only those with a natural immunity will survive.

Geeeze, the big worry each “flu season” year is that the new naturally mutated version of the virus will initiate that dreaded pandemic …… and fingers are crossed in hopes that it won’t happen.

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Post by TerryRC Mon May 19, 2008 6:47 am

I would read between the lines on that, Steph.

This doctor has merely correlated the vaccine with an increase in shingles.

This is not necessarily because of the vaccine. As a matter of fact, the vaccine likely has little to do with it, directly.

The scenario - if you have had chicken pox as a kid, you run a greater risk of developing shingles. Subsequent exposure to infected people will reduce that risk.

The vaccine isn't causing it, it is the reduced number of infected individuals that is causing it.

This doctor is recommending that we don't give it to our kids so that we can reduce shingles in this generation of adults?

Sounds kinda selfish.

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Post by Stephanie Mon May 19, 2008 7:25 am

Terry,

No, I don't think it's selfish because the mortality rate of shingles is much, much higher than for chicken pox.

Nobody, and I mean but nobody, has addressed my concerns regarding the length of efficacy of that vaccine. Chicken pox is a much more serious illness for an adult than it is for a child. The risks during pregnancy are very high.

When I asked my son's pediatrician the WHY of the chicken pox vaccine, he told me the motivating factor behind this vaccine had nothing to do with protecting children. Instead it has to do with the work force. If you and your wife both work and one of your kiddos comes down with chicken pox, you're losing work time. If you've got more than one child that can really add up. They're concerned about worker productivity, not the health of our kids.

Sorry, that just isn't a good enough reason for me to innoculate my child against a childhood illness we all suffered through and survived with relative ease.
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Post by TerryRC Mon May 19, 2008 7:31 am

When I asked my son's pediatrician the WHY of the chicken pox vaccine, he told me the motivating factor behind this vaccine had nothing to do with protecting children. Instead it has to do with the work force. If you and your wife both work and one of your kiddos comes down with chicken pox, you're losing work time. If you've got more than one child that can really add up. They're concerned about worker productivity, not the health of our kids.

That, of course, is one doctor's opinion.

I got the chicken pox when I was 22 and was VERY ill with it. High grade fever, dehydration and I still carry the scars of it.

No, I don't think it's selfish because the mortality rate of shingles is much, much higher than for chicken pox.

I must disagree. Putting children at risk of a disease to protect adults FROM the disease is the essence of selfish.

I had hoped, as a society, we were above exploiting our children. When you hear medical professionals endorsing it, like the one in the link you gave me, I see that we are not.

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Post by Stephanie Mon May 19, 2008 7:49 am

Terry,

They are not the same disease! They are both caused by the same virus, but they are not the same disease.

What about the percentage of children who get the chicken pox anyway? That vaccine isn't as effective as many others. Chicken pox isn't going to be erradicated the way small pox will. Many of these innoculated children contract chicken pox anyway, and many more will likely suffer like you did with them as adults.

"There appears to be no way to avoid a mass epidemic of shingles lasting as long as several generations among adults."

Goldman's analysis in IJT indicates that effectiveness of the chickenpox vaccine itself is also dependent on natural boosting, so that as chickenpox declines, so does the effectiveness of the vaccine. "The principal reason that vaccinees in Japan maintained high levels of immunity 20 years following vaccination was that only 1 in 5 (or 20%) of Japanese children were vaccinated," he said. "So those vaccinated received immunologic boosting from contact with children with natural chickenpox. But the universal varicella vaccination program in the U.S. will nearly eradicate this natural boosting mechanism and will leave our population vulnerable to shingles epidemics."

I don't consider avoiding such a calamity to be selfish. It's smart.
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Post by TerryRC Mon May 19, 2008 8:08 am

But the universal varicella vaccination program in the U.S. will nearly eradicate this natural boosting mechanism and will leave our population vulnerable to shingles epidemics."

Our present ADULT population. Future adult populations would not face that problem as they already have the boosted immune system from the vaccine (which has better than 98% efficacy). If a booster shot is needed, so what? I get one for tetanus on a fairly regular basis.

I understand what is going on here, very well, thanks.

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Post by Stephanie Mon May 19, 2008 10:44 am

Where are you getting that 98% efficacy rate from? I have looked at numerous sites and not a single one claims a rate that high. 85-90% is the efficacy rate of that vaccine.

You're not just talking about today's adults. You're speaking of tomorrow's adults as well. Look, I've already suffered from shingles. It was painful, debilitating even. I had the chicken pox when I was 5 and breezed through it so easily my parents didn't know what was wrong with me until I was no longer contagious. I infected my entire Kindergarten class.

3 of my children had the chicken pox. The oldest was 7 when he got them. My daughter was 4. None of them required hospitalization, not one of them has a single scar. It was a cake walk. They should be at greater risk of painful, debilitating shingles later in life so my 6 y/o doesn't get the chicken pox? I don't think so.

Mind you, when that vaccine came on the market, even when it became mandatory in many states, all of my children were still children. So it is about future adults too.

I don't think you do have a clue what is going on here. The pharmaceutical companies are doing a jig over this. First forced vaccination of chicken pox, then mandatory booster, and eventually every body will need shingles vaccinations to avoid that horrible illness.

Big employers like the state governments and WalMart are tickled pink.....less sick days for their employees, for now. Further on down the road we all will pay the price. And if you think your children won't suffer if they lose a parent or grandparent later in life to this you're only fooling yourself.
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Post by TerryRC Mon May 19, 2008 12:43 pm

I don't think you do have a clue what is going on here. The pharmaceutical companies are doing a jig over this. First forced vaccination of chicken pox, then mandatory booster, and eventually every body will need shingles vaccinations to avoid that horrible illness.

I never said the chicken pox vaccine should be forced. I think that doctors should be more honest in their assessments, though.

There is little to no danger associated with this vaccine and it definitely reduces your chances of contracting shingles as an adult for people that had the vaccination.

3 of my children had the chicken pox. The oldest was 7 when he got them. My daughter was 4. None of them required hospitalization, not one of them has a single scar. It was a cake walk. They should be at greater risk of painful, debilitating shingles later in life so my 6 y/o doesn't get the chicken pox? I don't think so.

Like I said, I was 22 and I was as sick as I have ever been.

Regardless, my kids have had the vaccine (my wife has never had the chicken pox) and if that puts others at more risk of shingles (including myself), so be it.

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