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Bible is "pretty childish."

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Post by SamCogar Wed May 14, 2008 9:32 am

LONDON — Albert Einstein: arch rationalist or scientist with a spiritual core?

A letter being auctioned in London this week adds more fuel to the long-simmering debate about the Nobel prize-winning physicist's religious views.

In the note, written the year before his death, Einstein dismissed the idea of God as the product of human weakness and the Bible as "pretty childish."

The letter, handwritten in German, is being sold by Bloomsbury Auctions on Thursday and is expected to fetch between $12,000 and $16,000.

Einstein, who helped unravel the mysteries of the universe with his theory of relativity, expressed complex and arguably contradictory views on faith, perceiving a universe suffused with spirituality while rejecting organized religion.

The letter up for sale, written to philosopher Eric Gutkind in January 1954, suggests his views on religion did not mellow with age.

In it, Einstein said that "the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."

"For me," he added, "the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."

Addressing the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people, Einstein wrote that "the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

Bloomsbury spokesman Richard Caton said the auction house was "100 percent certain" of the letter's authenticity.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,355323,00.html

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Post by ecofriek Sun May 25, 2008 6:42 pm

well I have no arguement with that statement at all. I think he is spot on.
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Post by Stephanie Sun May 25, 2008 9:18 pm

As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power.


I have read this quote several times in recent days. I agree with it whole-heartedly except I wonder.....

Does that portion really apply, at least to Israelis? They have nuclear weapons, one of the best trained armies in the world, and the full weight of the US behind them. I think perhaps they too are afflicted by the worst of cancers Einstein was speaking of.
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Post by shermangeneral Mon May 26, 2008 7:03 am

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/288200.html

Well I believe Lord Acton was correct in that regard.

Steph although I think I tend to empathize with the Israelis a little more than you do, I do share your concern.

However they certainly do not have absolute power as I would define it.

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Post by Stephanie Mon May 26, 2008 11:02 am

Nobody has absolute power. Not even our dearly despised GWB. lol
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Post by SheikBen Mon May 26, 2008 4:53 pm

What exactly makes Einstein an expert on the supernatural/metaphysical? Did he base his views on his scientific knowledge, or was he rather making proclamations with the certain liberty that comes from a respected reputation and perhaps a few beers?

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Post by Stephanie Mon May 26, 2008 5:54 pm

Even great thinkers like Einstein have opinions about all sorts of things.
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Post by SheikBen Mon May 26, 2008 8:30 pm

Sure, I don't begrudge him his opinion on religion. I think he's wrong, of course, but he's entitled to it.

My point is that we think Einstein's opinions are important because of his scientific brilliance, not any particular grasp of his on the supernatural or human nature. As such, while he is entitled to his opinion (and to having his papers now sold for big bucks), I see no reason why his opinion is any more informed on the matter than the opinions of the rest of us.

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Post by ziggy Mon May 26, 2008 9:52 pm

SheikBen wrote:Sure, I don't begrudge him his opinion on religion. I think he's wrong, of course, but he's entitled to it.

My point is that we think Einstein's opinions are important because of his scientific brilliance, not any particular grasp of his on the supernatural or human nature. As such, while he is entitled to his opinion (and to having his papers now sold for big bucks), I see no reason why his opinion is any more informed on the matter than the opinions of the rest of us.

And is there anyone else whose particular grasp on the supernatural is particularly any more brilliant than Einsteins's, or yours, or mine?
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Post by ziggy Mon May 26, 2008 9:56 pm

[quote="ziggy"]
SheikBen wrote:Sure, I don't begrudge him his opinion on religion. I think he's wrong, of course, but he's entitled to it.

My point is that we think Einstein's opinions are important because of his scientific brilliance, not any particular grasp of his on the supernatural or human nature. As such, while he is entitled to his opinion (and to having his papers now sold for big bucks), I see no reason why his opinion is any more informed on the matter than the opinions of the rest of us.

So scientific brilliance is not relevant to having an informed opinion about the "supernatural" and "human nature"?
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Post by SamCogar Tue May 27, 2008 4:12 am

SheikBen wrote:What exactly makes Einstein an expert on the supernatural/metaphysical? Did he base his views on his scientific knowledge, or was he rather making proclamations with the certain liberty that comes from a respected reputation and perhaps a few beers?

Hey, don't be knocking the beer, it makes ya smart, ya know.

It made Bud weiser, didn't it?

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Post by SheikBen Wed May 28, 2008 8:47 pm

[quote="ziggy"]
ziggy wrote:
SheikBen wrote:Sure, I don't begrudge him his opinion on religion. I think he's wrong, of course, but he's entitled to it.

My point is that we think Einstein's opinions are important because of his scientific brilliance, not any particular grasp of his on the supernatural or human nature. As such, while he is entitled to his opinion (and to having his papers now sold for big bucks), I see no reason why his opinion is any more informed on the matter than the opinions of the rest of us.

So scientific brilliance is not relevant to having an informed opinion about the "supernatural" and "human nature"?

That is correct, just as knowing about the latter does not make you an authority on the former.

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Post by SheikBen Wed May 28, 2008 8:49 pm

If anything, I would hope that Einstein's grasp of the natural would be enough that he would know that matters of the supernatural are not scientific questions at all.

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Post by SheikBen Wed May 28, 2008 8:54 pm

SamCogar wrote:
SheikBen wrote:What exactly makes Einstein an expert on the supernatural/metaphysical? Did he base his views on his scientific knowledge, or was he rather making proclamations with the certain liberty that comes from a respected reputation and perhaps a few beers?

Hey, don't be knocking the beer, it makes ya smart, ya know.

It made Bud weiser, didn't it?

I'm sure it helped the American Revolution as well.

I'm not knocking the moderate enjoyment of yummy beverages. I'm not knocking scientific brilliance, either. What I am suggesting is that questions about the meaning (or lack thereof) of life, the cause (or lack thereof) of life, and the sticky matter of right and wrong, are just simply beyond the kind of knowledge that can be gained in the laboratory. Both the naturalist and the supernaturalist are required to make a "leap of faith." Both of us can fit the evidence to our models, but neither of us can ultimately demonstrate scientifically either the validity or folly of most faith systems. Obviously I believe that Jesus Christ is literally God incarnate and that He literally became a Man and literally died in my place to make me right before God the Father.

I cannot present Him to you, however, in a test tube, or on CNN, or what have you, and neither can a scientist, no matter how skilled, present any evidence of a "negative" reality. Remember the cosmonaut who said there musn't be a God because he went into space and didn't see Him? That's the kind of error of which I'm speaking. Science cannot prove a negative. It cannot prove that God doesn't exist, and it can't prove that God never existed. It can tell us much about how the world operates, but it can't tell us why (or if there is no answer to the question of why)

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Post by ziggy Wed May 28, 2008 11:48 pm

SheikBen wrote:I'm not knocking the moderate enjoyment of yummy beverages. I'm not knocking scientific brilliance, either. What I am suggesting is that questions about the meaning (or lack thereof) of life, the cause (or lack thereof) of life, and the sticky matter of right and wrong, are just simply beyond the kind of knowledge that can be gained in the laboratory. Both the naturalist and the supernaturalist are required to make a "leap of faith." Both of us can fit the evidence to our models, but neither of us can ultimately demonstrate scientifically either the validity or folly of most faith systems.

So then, if neither validity nor folly can be demonstrated, then isn't one faith system just as good and useful to mankind as another?
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Post by SheikBen Thu May 29, 2008 6:32 am

Just because a faith system cannot be scientifically demonstrated does not mean that it is not true, but rather that it is not "scientific." Science has its limits.

"Good" is also something that cannot be quantified. "Useful" perhaps. Islam has likely helped many people avoid alcoholism and gangs. That doesn't mean that Allah is the only god and Muhammad is his prophet. Conversely, crimes against others by people purporting to be Christians say nothing about the validity of Christian doctrine either.

Of course, we can add up the body counts of atheist dictatorships as compared to Christian ones, and I submit that the atheists are far more deadly. But whether that is the case or not, there is no bearing on the truth claims of either the Christian or the atheist. Many children can be convinced to go to bed on time with threats of the bogeyman, but that does not mean that the bogeyman exists just because the threat of it has led to the desired behavior.

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Post by SamCogar Thu May 29, 2008 8:22 am

SheikBen wrote:
I'm not knocking the moderate enjoyment of yummy beverages. I'm not knocking scientific brilliance, either. What I am suggesting is that questions about the meaning (or lack thereof) of life, the cause (or lack thereof) of life, and the sticky matter of right and wrong, are just simply beyond the kind of knowledge that can be gained in the laboratory.

Mike, those are 3 completely different topics: meaning of life, ...... the cause of life ...... and the matter of right and wrong.

Only when one combines them together and attempts to show a relationship between them ....... does it become simply beyond the kind of knowledge that one can grasp and understand.

SheikBen wrote:Both the naturalist and the supernaturalist are required to make a "leap of faith." Both of us can fit the evidence to our models, but neither of us can ultimately demonstrate scientifically either the validity or folly of most faith systems.

Now Mike, the supernaturalists have always had problems "presenting their evidence" ....... because either their "presenting" or their "evidence" is in itself supernatural. Thus, it is their folly in attempting to prove a supernatural via another supernatural. Aka: using the contents of the Bible .... to prove the contents of the Bible.

SheikBen wrote:I cannot present Him to you, however, in a test tube, or on CNN, or what have you, and neither can a scientist, no matter how skilled, present any evidence of a "negative" reality. Science cannot prove a negative. It cannot prove that God doesn't exist, and it can't prove that God never existed.


Mike, science CAN PROVE that your God only exists within your mind. But it isn't necessary for science to prove it, ....... just look around, the proof is walking around everywhere you look. Every single human has their own distinct thoughts and opinions of who and/or what their god is or isn't.

SheikBen wrote:It can tell us much about how the world operates, but it can't tell us why (or if there is no answer to the question of why)

Aw silly, of course science tells us why the world operates the way it does.

Mike, me thinks you are confusing the "how and why" ........ with the "predicting" of what is going to happen next or in the future. Very Happy Very Happy

.

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Post by SheikBen Thu May 29, 2008 12:14 pm

Tell me, Sam, how exactly science can prove that God only exists in my mind.

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Post by ziggy Thu May 29, 2008 4:09 pm

SheikBen wrote:Just because a faith system cannot be scientifically demonstrated does not mean that it is not true, but rather that it is not "scientific." Science has its limits.

Yes, science is limited to the natural world, natural universe. And supernaturality has its limits too- limited to the psyches of those who subscribe to supernatural faith or beliefs. There is no discernable evidence otherwise.

"Good" is also something that cannot be quantified. "Useful" perhaps. Islam has likely helped many people avoid alcoholism and gangs. That doesn't mean that Allah is the only god and Muhammad is his prophet. Conversely, crimes against others by people purporting to be Christians say nothing about the validity of Christian doctrine either.

So if Christianity can't be confirmed by scientific methods, and can't be confirmed by the actions of its believers, of what value is it other than as a psycho opiate for certain believers in supernaturalism?

Of course, we can add up the body counts of atheist dictatorships as compared to Christian ones, and I submit that the atheists are far more deadly. But whether that is the case or not, there is no bearing on the truth claims of either the Christian or the atheist. Many children can be convinced to go to bed on time with threats of the bogeyman, but that does not mean that the bogeyman exists just because the threat of it has led to the desired behavior.

Are you suggesting that the purpose of the heaven or hell proposition is to make us be good?
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Post by Stephanie Thu May 29, 2008 6:25 pm

Are you suggesting it is anything else, Ziggy?
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Post by SheikBen Thu May 29, 2008 8:30 pm

Ziggy,

You can see lives changed by Jesus Christ. I can tell you that I went from an agnostic who was depressed and dark to a very fulfilled, happy, and nicer fellow. My point is that the truth claims of the Christian faith are not proven by the deeds of Christians. I can and would argue that the deeds of people professing to be Christians prove whether they are legitimate or not, but that is different.

Your point that I want to take on, again, is yours and Sam's quite untroubled assertion that religion exists in the minds of the adherents and not elsewhere. You are guilty of a certain chauvenism that states that if science cannot examine a question it therefore cannot be true. Do you think that science has answered all the unresolved questions in the natural universe? If not (and I should hope not!), then how can you be so sure of yourself when you credit science with the ability to answer the unresolved questions of the supernatural?

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Post by SheikBen Thu May 29, 2008 8:32 pm

As for heaven and hell, I'm afraid with all of your Bible thumping acquaintences you never really listened to any of them (nothing but love, you know I love you, Zig:)

Any Bible thumper worth his or her salt would tell you flatly that "there is none righteous, not even one." (Romans 3:23). Man cannot be "good," and therefore heaven and hell do not rest on man's actions. If it did, we'd all go to hell.

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Post by Stephanie Thu May 29, 2008 9:42 pm

Michael,

How do you explain all the Christians that have found Christ but use their religion, and him, as a weapon against other people? Your religion has made you a happier person. I think that's terrific. However, it doesn't work that way for everyone.

Your interpretation of the Bible is different from that of many other Christians. I realize you're convinced you're interpretation is the correct one, but so do they.

I wonder though, how happy would your religion make you if one or more of your children left that faith? Americans are changing religions with greater and greater frequency. There is no doubt in my mind you love and value your children every bit as much as I do mine. I don't know how happy you could possibly be if you honestly believed their lack of faith meant eternal damnation.
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Post by ziggy Thu May 29, 2008 10:48 pm

SheikBen wrote:As for heaven and hell, I'm afraid with all of your Bible thumping acquaintences you never really listened to any of them (nothing but love, you know I love you, ZigSmile.

I have no doubt about that. If I did, I would not care to engage you.

As to most of my "Bible thumping acquaintences", I listen to them with ardent interest- because they have been so intriguing. If God doesn't want us to make decisions about our place in the universe based on observable evidence, but on faith instead, why does he give us minds capable of thinking?
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Post by ziggy Thu May 29, 2008 10:52 pm

SheikBen wrote:Any Bible thumper worth his or her salt would tell you flatly that "there is none righteous, not even one." (Romans 3:23). Man cannot be "good," and therefore heaven and hell do not rest on man's actions. If it did, we'd all go to hell.

Or maybe we are all already in hell. Or heaven.
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