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Why isn't the state doing their job?

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SamCogar
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Post by Aaron Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:06 am

ICG to pay $437,000 for DEP violation

International Coal Group will pay about $437,000 in fines in the second state Department of Environmental Protection deal this year over coal industry water pollution violations.
By Ken Ward Jr.
Staff writer

International Coal Group will pay about $437,000 in fines in the second state Department of Environmental Protection deal this year over coal industry water pollution violations.

DEP officials disclosed settlements with seven subsidiaries of Scott Depot-based ICG in public notices issued earlier this week.

In mid-March, DEP agreed to a settlement with Alpha Natural Resources for $750,000 in fines.

The deals are part of a movement by the coal industry to resolve water pollution violations never previously cited by DEP, and avoid federal government enforcement actions or citizen group lawsuits.

DEP Secretary Randy Huffman has refused to say what other companies he is negotiating with, and denied a Freedom of Information Act request for documents about such talks.

Mike Zeto, the agency's chief inspector, has also refused to discuss any other ongoing negotiations with coal operators.

Industry officials have said that coal operators approached DEP seeking settlements with the state after Massey Energy paid a record $20 million to settle a water pollution lawsuit brought against it by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

EPA sued Massey over thousands of violations that DEP never cited because state officials for roughly five years never reviewed water pollution monitoring reports that coal companies submit every month.


The rest of the story

These companies are monitoring and sending the information to the state every month. The question is, what is the state doing with the reports and why did it take the feds to get something done? Seems if the state was enforcing as they should have been, there would be less violations.

One could reasonably conclude that it is the state that is responsible for water pollution violations. Since fining the state is passed on to taxpayers and, it seems to me that best course of action would be to fire and/or prosecute those who negligently failed to do there job and those individuals should, at the very least, have to pay a fine and lose their employment with the state.
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Post by SamCogar Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:44 am

Aaron wrote:
One could reasonably conclude that it is the state that is responsible for water pollution violations. Since fining the state is passed on to taxpayers and, it seems to me that best course of action would be to fire and/or prosecute those who negligently failed to do there job and those individuals should, at the very least, have to pay a fine and lose their employment with the state.

Aaron, I'm sure Ziggy and friends will be filing Lawsuits against those State employees post haste, ....... just as hastily as they have always done in the past years. Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

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Post by Aaron Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:42 pm

What gets me is that ole Frank posted how many times about Massey's violations that led to the Federal EPA sueing them that led to massive fines.

What he didn't tell everyone was that Massy was monitoring their water and reporting to the WV DEP monthly just like they was supposed to.

Now I don't knwo about anyone else, but If I'm told I have to send a report in to someone every month and I go 5 years and no one tells me there's a problem, then I think anyone with even the slimest bit of common sense would reasonably conclude that everything was OK.

I am by no means trying to defend Massey or ISG or anyone else, but when the state doesn't do their job, there should be some consquences for their lack of action.

But I'm sure Frank will find a way to blame their not doing what they were hired to do on the coal companies.
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Post by SamCogar Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:32 am

Of course, ...... of course, ...... of course.

Why isn't the state doing their job? 197570

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Post by Stephanie Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:42 pm

How do you suppose we're going to hold the state accountable? I want you to think about that for a moment. In order to hold the state accountable the voters are going to have to take action and get rid of the bums. That doesn't seem to happen here with any greater frequency than it does in RI.
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Post by Aaron Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:00 pm

Really? Is this the same bums that said last week Mike Garrison wasn't leaving WVU?
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Post by SamCogar Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:00 am

Stephanie wrote:How do you suppose we're going to hold the state accountable? I want you to think about that for a moment.

HA, I don't have to and ain't going to "think about it for a moment" except to reply to your post.

I've done all the thinking about it I'm going to do ....... and that started back bout 1982 and continued with vim n' vigor involvement and participation up through the late 1990's, ...... a span of almost 18 years.

And all that I achieved for my expended time, effort and money was little more than my own character assassination by those “few” of the “many” who were/are benefiting monetarily as long as the "status quo" of the current process/system remains unchanged.

And said character assassination and process/system "status quo" has only been exacerbated over the years by those “dummies” who only ……. think about the problem(s) “for a moment” ….. while spending hours n’ hours listening to and repeating all the BS the “monetary benefitters” keep feeding them.

Stephanie, the “few” are the ShermanGenerals, …….. the “many” are the Ziggies. And due to the fact you will never be able to change the “mindset” of the Ziggies, …… you will never be able to “hold the state accountable”.

Steph, you probably spent months lauding the praises of Ron Paul, but to no avail, because it only takes one (1) ShermanGeneral type …….. to convince fifty (50) Ziggy types not to support or vote for Ron Paul …… without ever mentioning his name or his platform. And they do that by personally criticizing and “poking” fun at you ….. and the “dummies” will associate that with whatever candidate or issue that you are supporting.

And Stephanie, my friend and I “proved that” about 10-12 years ago when we personally got a School Bond and Levy DEFEATED here in Braxton County. The “monetary benefitters” had done such a GOOD JOB of convincing the “dummies” not to support or vote for anything Ray or I was in favor of ……. that we decided to launch a “VOTE FOR the School Bond and Levy” campaign. And we did so by flooding the County with letters, signs and a newspaper ad “urging everyone” Why isn't the state doing their job? 197570 to vote for said and the “reasonsgeek Razz ….. why they should.

They voted “NO” on both issues by a great big majority. Our campaign was SUCCESSFUL. Why isn't the state doing their job? 81632 Why isn't the state doing their job? 81632

Stephanie wrote:In order to hold the state accountable the voters are going to have to take action and get rid of the bums. That doesn't seem to happen here with any greater frequency than it does in RI.


Steph, that may be true …… but you might as well be wishing in one hand and defecating in the other ….. if you think that will ever happen without a substantial influx of new residents into the State. Import another 100K like yourself into the Kanawha Valley and then and only then ...... you might start seeing "a change".

Face reality Stephanie, …… the majority of “non-troughfeeding” voters do not, … I repeat, DO NOT ….. associate “the bums in Office” …….. with how the State functions or operates.

Voting for someone is one (1) “thing”, .... concern about how the State functions or operates is “something else”.

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Post by TerryRC Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:18 am

EPA sued Massey over thousands of violations that DEP never cited because state officials for roughly five years never reviewed water pollution monitoring reports that coal companies submit every month.

Wasn't that under Callahagn's watch. The guy that now works for the coal industry?

It would be better if we elected these officials rather than appointing them.

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Post by SamCogar Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:25 am

Aaron wrote:Really? Is this the same bums that said last week Mike Garrison wasn't leaving WVU?

NO, that was the "dummies" that were saying that ...... because that is what they have been "trained" to say for so many years.

It was "the same bums" that quickly realized their own Degree status will always be "in question" now, ..... but if Garrison remained at WVU ..... no way in hell could they ever convince anyone their Degree was not also "ill gotten" via personal favors Twisted Evil or friends.

And besides, ...... the honesty, integrity and creditability ..... of all WV Lawyers ...... took a shot in der ass on "that deal".

Why isn't the state doing their job? 49761


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Post by TerryRC Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:30 am

It was "the same bums" that quickly realized their own Degree status will always be "in question" now, ..... but if Garrison remained at WVU ..... no way in hell could they ever convince anyone their Degree was not also "ill gotten" via personal favors or friends.

Nah. Alot of us alumni called for is resignation, immediately.

Those of us whose degree relied on a thesis and defense know our degree won't be in question.

Mine is available on line for free. The school wanted me to keep it private so they could charge people for online access but I believe in the free flow of information.

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Post by SamCogar Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:50 am

TerryRC wrote:EPA sued Massey over thousands of violations that DEP never cited because state officials for roughly five years never reviewed water pollution monitoring reports that coal companies submit every month.

Wasn't that under Callahagn's watch. The guy that now works for the coal industry?

Who gives a shidt whose "watch" it was under, ..... cease with the "troughfeeder" CYAs.

The Legislators, Governor, Super Secretaries, etc. didn't all report to Callahagn.

TerryRC wrote:It would be better if we elected these officials rather than appointing them.

"DUH", you all elected the Officials that hired (the one that hired, etc.) Callahagn, ...... didn't you?

Da ya pose that iffen everyone that has a job in State Government ..... had to be "elected" to their job ........ that that would solve all the problems?

Why isn't the state doing their job? 33948 Why isn't the state doing their job? 33948 Why isn't the state doing their job? 33948


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Post by SamCogar Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:06 am

TerryRC wrote:It was "the same bums" that quickly realized their own Degree status will always be "in question" now, ..... but if Garrison remained at WVU ..... no way in hell could they ever convince anyone their Degree was not also "ill gotten" via personal favors or friends.

Nah. Alot of us alumni called for is resignation, immediately.

Those of us whose degree relied on a thesis and defense know our degree won't be in question.

OH YEAH, ...... then tell us, ...... why in hell should you care whether he resigned or not?

You have your Degree, ...... your job, ...... so why your IMMEDIATE concern?

Concern of any future job potentials ...... maybe.

lol! lol! lol!


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Post by Stephanie Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:19 am

Look, this WVU thingie has me more than a bit perturbed. I've mentioned my daughter is leaning heavily toward becoming a pharmacist, she's leaning more and more in that direction with each passing day.

Her first choice is UC. Of course, we don't know she'll be accepted there (those pharm programs fill up FAST) so she needs back ups. Right now WVU is her #2 choice. The doubt that has been cast on that school as a result of this scandal is about to take WVU right off her list. If she isn't accepted at UC and WVU isn't an option that probably bye-bye Katie for a good 6 years, probably forever.

It seems to me everyone in WV should be concerned about this whether they have a degree from WVU or in they have a loved one attending or thinking of enrolling or not. WV taxpayers are footing the bill for a lot of this and I really think we all deserve better.
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Post by Aaron Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:45 pm

TerryRC wrote:It was "the same bums" that quickly realized their own Degree status will always be "in question" now, ..... but if Garrison remained at WVU ..... no way in hell could they ever convince anyone their Degree was not also "ill gotten" via personal favors or friends.

Nah. Alot of us alumni called for is resignation, immediately.

Those of us whose degree relied on a thesis and defense know our degree won't be in question.

Mine is available on line for free. The school wanted me to keep it private so they could charge people for online access but I believe in the free flow of information.

I think you misunderstand. The only people that have the authority to fire the President is the board of Governors and who has the power to replace those who have the authority to fire?

The same bums in Charleston who responded to the constant public pressure placed on the BOG. If that same pressure is applied in other area's at the right time, change can and will happen. But it has to be at the right time. The opportunity was in early 2006 but the bums beat us to the punch by placing the blame on the coal compaines and the Frank's and Sherm's of the world ate it lock, stock and barrel.
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Post by Cato Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:55 pm

If you truly want change then the people who the public needs to hold accountible is the governor and the legislature. The Buck stops there and they are the one's to be held accountible.

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Post by ziggy Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:15 pm

Aaron wrote:What gets me is that ole Frank posted how many times about Massey's violations that led to the Federal EPA sueing them that led to massive fines.

What he didn't tell everyone was that Massy was monitoring their water and reporting to the WV DEP monthly just like they was supposed to. .

You are fibbing again, Aaron. Frank told you that the violations were self-reported. And that is why Massey did not contest the EPA action- because Massey had already reported the violations under terms of the permits that require self-reporting.

Now I don't knwo about anyone else, but If I'm told I have to send a report in to someone every month and I go 5 years and no one tells me there's a problem, then I think anyone with even the slimest bit of common sense would reasonably conclude that everything was OK.

No one could reasonably conclude that if your self-reporting indicated that your effluents exceeded your permit discharge limits.

I am by no means trying to defend Massey or ISG or anyone else, but when the state doesn't do their job, there should be some consquences for their lack of action.

The consequences should be that the EPA revoke primacy- revoke the state's authority to issue and monitor NPDES permits.

But I'm sure Frank will find a way to blame their not doing what they were hired to do on the coal companies.

It was the coal companies who- agreeing to certain terms of those permits- subsequently violated them.
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Post by Aaron Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:19 pm

They were self reported Frank. To the state. Or is the article I referenced that said exactly what it said fibbing too???

Bottom line is, the state did not do their job but you can excuse that, right Frank. After all, they were probably coerced just like the inspectors that were at Aracoma the day before 2 workers got killed and failed to do their job, right Frank!!! And that's coal's fault, right Frank.

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Post by ziggy Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:32 pm

Cato wrote:If you truly want change then the people who the public needs to hold accountible is the governor and the legislature. The Buck stops there and they are the one's to be held accountible.

Cato

What we are talking about here, Cato, is a federal law, the Claean Water Act, that allows the U.S. EPA to defer to state agancies to issue permits and other enforce the Cleab Water Act in the states that set up regulations to do so. This gives the states "primacy" to enforce the federal laws. But EPA can and does monitor the permits and the reports required under the permits. And it can file lawsuits against permit holders who exceed permit effluenet limits.

In my opinion, the solution would be for the EPA to revoke primacy, and do its own federal law permitting and enforcement actions- leaving the state legislature and the governor out of it.
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Post by ziggy Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:41 pm

Aaron wrote:They were self reported Frank. To the state. Or is the article I referenced that said exactly what it said fibbing too???

What you fibbed about was when you said:

Aaron wrote:
What gets me is that ole Frank posted how many times about Massey's violations that led to the Federal EPA sueing them that led to massive fines.

What he didn't tell everyone was that Massy was monitoring their water and reporting to the WV DEP monthly just like they was supposed to.

I told you back then that it was self-reported, and that is why Masey did not contest the charged violations. But back then you went through your speil about it was expensive to fight the EPA, and so Massey paid rather than fight the charged violations. But now you see that it was just as I had told you here back then- that Massey had already admitted the violations.

I told you so.

But somehow it's may fault that you were ignorant about it back then?
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Post by Aaron Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:54 pm

You ever think about writing Frank? Seems you've got a knack for fiction!!!
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Post by SamCogar Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:56 am

Stephanie wrote:It seems to me everyone in WV should be concerned about this whether they have a degree from WVU or in they have a loved one attending or thinking of enrolling or not. WV taxpayers are footing the bill for a lot of this and I really think we all deserve better.

Stephanie, you are right of course ...... that everyone in WV should be concerned about this.

But now I ask you, what other recourse or actions can those WVU Professors take .................... given the quality of the students that the High Schools in WV are dumping onto them? Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


Steph, and don't be one bit concerned about Katie attending WVU School of Pharmacy relative to ...... recognization of her Degree.

Just worry about her getting the Degree.

Steph, there is somewhere between 100 and 1,000 licensed Pharmacists now working in WV with Degrees from WVU ......... and that FACT speaks for itself.

cheers

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Post by TerryRC Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:14 am

OH YEAH, ...... then tell us, ...... why in hell should you care whether he resigned or not?

You have your Degree, ...... your job, ...... so why your IMMEDIATE concern?

Concern of any future job potentials ...... maybe.


Because I had to earn my degree and she was given hers by Manchin's buddy.

Sam, nothing in my posts called for you to use ad hom attacks.. Since you started with the name calling (the tired old "troughfeeder" slam), I'm giving you the "Douchbag of the Day" award.

Yes we (meaning you, too) elected the officials that appointed these goons. We should be able to directly elect the goons, themselves, so conflicts of interest will be more apparent.

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