Whither NATO?

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Whither NATO?

Post by shermangeneral on Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:06 am


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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by ohio county on Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:27 am

The European portion of NATO gets an overwhelming majority of its petrol from Russia and is of the general opinion that nothing is happening in Georgia. Move along. Nothing to see here.

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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Randall on Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:41 pm

Actually, Georgia's (and Ukraine's) bid to join NATO seems to have been strengthened. Germany, which is deeply reliant on Russian energy (the former chancellor, Schroeder, left office and took a job with Gazprom), was firmly opposed to granting Georgia membership. That stance may be changing:

German Chancellor Angela Merkel is offering strong support for Georgia, saying the country is on track to become a member of NATO.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gDNLWfQWKrQc48pITBUg9KT_6oVwD92K2SE80
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by shermangeneral on Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:47 pm

Well I would imagine there is some lingering dislike for the Russians.

I understand the Russians were not really very nice to the Germans after WWII.

In any event, it seems clear this is another major Bush foreign policy blunder.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-pillars18-2008aug18,0,7994401.story

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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Randall on Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:57 pm

I agree that Bush seriously misjudged Putin right from the start. But the Russians were looking, just looking, for a chance to make an example out of Georgia. I'm not sure the US could have done anything short of war to dissuade the Russians from that.
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Aaron on Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:13 pm

I ask you 87 times (ok, maybe that's exaggerating a wee bit but I did ask multiple times) Sherm and you never did answer on any of the threads.

Would you commit American troops to Georgia's defense?

A simple yes or no will suffice if you can manage that.
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by shermangeneral on Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:04 pm

That is a moot question Aaron.

Irrelevant and immaterial to the subject at hand.

Diplomatic efforts under this administration have been non-existant except for attempts at bullying.
(a lot like your diplomacy on here, actually)

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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Aaron on Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:14 am



I got news for you Sherm my man, this entire forum is moot. We all do the same thing, which is come on here and shoot the shinola and express our opinion.

And mine on your previous post is that you took the cowards way out of answering the question simply becasuse you wouldn't support sending American troops to Georgia but you would never agree that GWB is doing the right thing.

It is my opinion that you would sooner cut off your $#@! then to agree with GWB!!!

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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by ziggy on Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:54 am

And mine on your previous post is that you took the cowards way out of answering the question simply becasuse you wouldn't support sending American troops to Georgia but you would never agree that GWB is doing the right thing.

What is GWB doing that's "right" re: Georgia?
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Aaron on Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:54 am

What is he doing wrong and what would you have him due regarding Georgia?
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by ziggy on Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:59 am

What is GWB doing that's "right" re: Georgia?
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Aaron on Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:03 am

I ask you before if he should committ troops Frank and you spouted some lame answer about liberty and never did answer the question.

What's he done right? For one, he didn't jump the gun and send in troops.

Now answer my question.

What is he doing wrong and what would you have him due regarding Georgia? Would you have him send in troops?
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Stephanie on Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:53 am

I think that the President has done two things "right".

First, he hasn't committed US forces to solve another dispute on the other side of the globe. That is as it should be.

Secondly, he has told Russia there will be consequences if Russia doesn't cease aggression in Georgia and he is exploring options. What can the US do to put pressure on the Russians? He has made it clear his administration is looking into that.

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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by ziggy on Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:00 pm

What is he doing wrong and what would you have him due regarding Georgia?

What he is doing wrong is what he has always done wrong- he "talks tough" but without having the historical respect for international diplomacy that would cause his words to mean anything. In every could-be diplomatic initiative, Bush always takes the position that the adversary must first agree to certain concessions or there will be no discussions. That is a poison pill designed to scuttle negotiations before they even begin. The result has become that his words about Georgia or anything else are but empty rhetoric- "a tale told by an idiot, signifying nothing".
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Aaron on Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:16 pm

You've criticized GWB for looking at every problem as if it's a nail that requires a hammer but now that he is speaking and not committing troops, you are criticizing because you believe he has no ‘historical’ respect for international diplomacy and because he demands concessions before talking as a requirement for discussions.

First, you’ll have to explain what you mean by historical diplomacy. Is that what Clinton did Kosovo or Carter did with Iran? Can you please give me an example of what you consider a historical respect for international diplomacy because what I think of when that term is mentioned is peacekeepers raping and killing little children or the oil for food program but if you have something different, I’d love to hear all about it.

As for requiring concessions before discussion, I see nothing wrong with that. Why should he not expect the Russians to stop bombing Georgians before entering into conversations about the situation? Is there some reason you feel one shouldn’t expect some sort of concession before entering into a negotiation?

Somehow I get the feeling that no matter what GWB does, you'll find fault with it Frank. It's clear you despise the man Frank and that your opinions are biased by hatred you feel towards him. At least that's the way I see it.
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by ziggy on Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:09 pm

I agree with whomever said that we should speak softly but carry a big stick. If you are good at that, you will rarely need to use the stick. GWB's history as Presidnet has been to first talk tough- which is a virtual guarantee that you'll have to use that stick more often.

Biased against GWB? Hell yes I am biased agaisnt him as the President. And a whole lot of other people are, too- and including many otherwsie Republican supporters and apologists- some of them right here on this forum. For almost 8 years he has handled the presidency as a bully pulpit for age old Bush family retributions, and neo-conservative brow-beating. He has looked into Putin's soul and decided to re-kindle the cold war. Of course a whole bunch of us are biased againt him. Why are you surprised?
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Aaron on Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:30 pm

When one is filled with hatred and biased by prejudice they can not come to logical conclusions or make reasonable decisions.
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by ziggy on Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:34 pm

Tell that to Patrick Buckhannon.
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Aaron on Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:20 pm

I don't have discussions with Patrick Buckhannon Frank. I do however have them with you. And you are almost as bad as Sherm about not answering questions. Almost but not quite.

At any rate, there are two questions on the table. What you mean by historical diplomacy and second, would you specifically commit troops to Georgia?
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by ziggy on Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:32 pm

I have already answered your first question. And the second one is not relevant to the discussion about Bush's history of thumbing his nose at diplomacy.
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Aaron on Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:35 pm

So historically, internation diplomacy is walk softly and carry a big stick? Who's your SOS, Bufford T. Pusser?

Rolling Eyes

And, yes it is relevent. Would you have GWB commit troops to Georgia's defense, yes or no? It's a simple question Sher....err I mean Frank!!!
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by ziggy on Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:50 pm

To Georgia's defense against what? Against it own agression against South Ossetia?
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Aaron on Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:57 pm

Should GWB commit troops?
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by ziggy on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:23 am

To do what?

To Georgia's defense against what? Against it own agression against South Ossetia?

Russia has already thwarted that.
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Re: Whither NATO?

Post by Aaron on Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:52 am

Then what is it you expect GWB to do that he's not doing?
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Re: Whither NATO?

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