Doing What's Right

HAH, a student doesn't have to be mildly handicapped, ..... or handicapped at all, ........ to be feared, bullied, teased, picked-on and/or shunned by other students ..... and Teachers.

The "picture" always looks so purty and tranquile to all those who have never had to "walk a few steps" ...... in another person's shoes.

Sam,

If you think you're holding a conversation with the girl who was voted most popular or some such foolishness back in '82 I swear to you that you couldn't be more wrong.

In any event, I'm not talking about being bullied. I'm talking about being cast out from the rest of society. That is what we used to do with the severely disabled and that's what I worry will occur again if we begin to segregate them all forcibly, which is I believe what you are proposing.

Stephanie, give them a First Grade entry level test.

If they can pass it, ..... fine, ....... enroll them.

If they can't, ..... then they won't know if they have been cast out from the rest of society or not.

cheers

OMG Sam, I'm beginning to think there is no hope for you.

Am I alone in my thoughts here? I don't see anyone else insisting options and access for severely handicapped children.

Estimated cost for Schayne via a "babysitting" Aide is $20,000+ per year.

Estimated cost for Schayne via a "babysitting" Teacher is $35,000+ per year.


Steph, as far as I am concerned, ........ both of the above are "earmarks" that only benefit the School employees and the parents.

SamCogar wrote:Stephanie, give them a First Grade entry level test.

If they can pass it, ..... fine, ....... enroll them.

If they can't, ..... then they won't know if they have been cast out from the rest of society or not.

cheers

oh you've got to be kidding.
Civilization is known by how it treats it's most fragile members.

Is that how you want to be known in the history books Sam?

OK, ….. OK, …… I promise to stand where the cameras can get a good picture of me ……… and count the Hot Rolls at the next “feeding the poor” Thanksgiving dinner ……. and stand at the “finish line” a clapping n’ cheering n’ smiling when they hold the next Special Olympics.

Then when I see my picture in the media releases I can get a warm fuzzy feeling all over more than anyplace else knowing I did something really good for once in my life. Uh, make that twice in my life.

Cheers

ps: Sasha, your and Steph’s psychological bantering that is directed toward me is really an act of futility on your all’s part. I think and consider myself an expert on this subject matter.



.

And what exactly are your credentials - having an opinion doesn't make one an expert. Even a self-proclaimed one - except in one's mind.

wvsasha wrote:And what exactly are your credentials - having an opinion doesn't make one an expert. Even a self-proclaimed one - except in one's mind.

Well now Sasha, my credentials are kinda like having the "right credentials" for raising kids.

Now a mother might have the "right credentials" and be an expert at raising a daughter, ....... but she sure as hell doesn't have the "right credentials" and she sure is not an expert at raising a son.

And the primary reason for her said limitations is ......... she never was a son.

And having an opinion about how best she thinks a son should be raised doesn't make her an expert.

Sasha, I assure you, for what it is worth, my self-proclaimed "expertise" is not a figment of my imagination.

Cheers

In other words, Sasha, they are zilch.

ziggy wrote:In other words, Sasha, they are zilch.

How can you be so sure? Remember, Ziggy, most of us only know the others on the www. What do we really know about each other, other than what we choose to disclose?

Stephanie wrote:

ziggy wrote:In other words, Sasha, they are zilch.

How can you be so sure? Remember, Ziggy, most of us only know the others on the www. What do we really know about each other, other than what we choose to disclose?

True. But "zilch" was based on the answer (non-answer?) given to Sasha's question.

SamCogar wrote:Well now Sasha, my credentials are kinda like having the "right credentials" for raising kids.

Now a mother might have the "right credentials" and be an expert at raising a daughter, ....... but she sure as hell doesn't have the "right credentials" and she sure is not an expert at raising a son.

And the primary reason for her said limitations is ......... she never was a son.

And having an opinion about how best she thinks a son should be raised doesn't make her an expert.

Sasha, I assure you, for what it is worth, my self-proclaimed "expertise" is not a figment of my imagination.

Cheers

ahhh! I understand....your credentials come from being a severely/profoundly handicapped person. You must function on a 12 month intellectual level, have the care taking needs of the same age group, and the same emotional responses of same in order to be able to understand and make statements such as the ones you have in the past. Otherwise, using your own logic, how could you be credentialed to make these wise pronouncements? If I couldn't properly raise a son for myself being female........

I applaud your ability to overcome your needs and able to communicate your opinions in such a succinct fashion. I will remember this fact in all future exchanges with you.

Sasha, you asked, ...... I told you, ....... so I see no professional reason you should get all pouty and p-faced about it.

I am curious though, why is it that people like yourself insist on enrolling severly mentally handicapped individuals in the Public Schools, when they are only capable of functioning on "a 12 month intellectual level", ..... just to parade them through all Grade Levels from 1 to 12?

But why quit then, ..... why not 4 more years at College on a Promise Scholarship?

GEEEZUS, just because you deny the High School underachievers a Promise Scholarship ...... is no reason to deny the mentally handicapped a Promise Scholarship, ...... now is there?

And ps, .... I am sure you could "properly raise a son for yourself", .............

cheers

SamCogar wrote:Sasha, you asked, ...... I told you, ....... so I see no professional reason you should get all pouty and p-faced about it.

I am curious though, why is it that people like yourself insist on enrolling severly mentally handicapped individuals in the Public Schools, when they are only capable of functioning on "a 12 month intellectual level", ..... just to parade them through all Grade Levels from 1 to 12?

But why quit then, ..... why not 4 more years at College on a Promise Scholarship?

GEEEZUS, just because you deny the High School underachievers a Promise Scholarship ...... is no reason to deny the mentally handicapped a Promise Scholarship, ...... now is there?

And ps, .... I am sure you could "properly raise a son for yourself", .............

cheers

It is because it is their right to have an education. Period. End of story. They are citizens of the United States just like you. We educate our young. We do not discriminate based on ability for education. Their parents pay their taxes just like you. Who are you to say their child shouldn't attend school? Should we just line them up for the train heading to Auschwitz? Who else should they take with them? The elderly? How old is too old? One-legged people? What about amputee soldiers? Surely they aren't of much use anymore.

It's about what's right and about the inherent dignity of humanity.

wvsasha wrote:

SamCogar wrote:Sasha, you asked, ...... I told you, ....... so I see no professional reason you should get all pouty and p-faced about it.

I am curious though, why is it that people like yourself insist on enrolling severly mentally handicapped individuals in the Public Schools, when they are only capable of functioning on "a 12 month intellectual level", ..... just to parade them through all Grade Levels from 1 to 12?

But why quit then, ..... why not 4 more years at College on a Promise Scholarship?

GEEEZUS, just because you deny the High School underachievers a Promise Scholarship ...... is no reason to deny the mentally handicapped a Promise Scholarship, ...... now is there?

And ps, .... I am sure you could "properly raise a son for yourself", .............

cheers

It is because it is their right to have an education. Period. End of story. They are citizens of the United States just like you. We educate our young. We do not discriminate based on ability for education. Their parents pay their taxes just like you. Who are you to say their child shouldn't attend school? Should we just line them up for the train heading to Auschwitz? Who else should they take with them? The elderly? How old is too old? One-legged people? What about amputee soldiers? Surely they aren't of much use anymore.

It's about what's right and about the inherent dignity of humanity.

Sasha,

I agree with you.......up to a point.

Of course I agree that all children should receive educational opportunities, regardless of ability. I don't believe people are disposable, or less valuable because they are "imperfect" or disabled or whatever.

However, I also don't believe that one child, or a small minority of children, have rights superior to that of their counterparts simply because they are disabled. I don't believe that every child who's parents want their severely disabled child to be mainstreamed, should be mainstreamed. The general education students are entitled to a quality education too. In order for an education to be of quality, it can't be constantly interrupted by disruptive students, nor can it be "dummied down" to best suit the needs of those students who can't achieve at grade level etc.

Also, I don't think it is realistic to demand taxpayers write a blank check for educational, occupational and other services for the severely disabled. Nor do I think it reasonable to limit opportunities by making cuts for general education students in order to fund special education services that sometimes run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars for a single student. That isn't fair nor is it responsible.

So to me it is a question of balance in addition to fairness. I don't care how wealthy you or Ziggy or anyone else believes the state of WV or the USA is. Resources are, and always will be, limited. The pot is only so big and can only expand so much.

These are the kinds of issues that need to be addressed when we discuss educating those students with severe disabilities. We need to "do right by them". Of course we do. Our very humanity depends upon it. However, we musn't do so at the expense of everyone else.

Our general ed. students are far more disrupted in the reg. ed classroom by students without special needs but insist on being class clowns and other type of idiots.

A severely handicapped student is not going to be put in a gen.ed. math or science class. If they are mainstreamed - it'll be in the gym, music or arts classes. It would be silly to put someone functioning at a 12 month old level in algebra class and if that is happening somewhere, then it needs to be stopped. That is not appropriate nor at their least restrictive environment.

And a severely handicapped student who is mainstreamed into a gym/art/music class will *generally* have an aide with them. It will require little effort on the part of the classroom teacher to have them in there.

You will find that most teachers' time spent on discipline will be for those students without IEPs, are not special education, and therefore do not have the various supports in the classroom that sp.ed. students generally have.

* now I did use the word generally several times throughout this post. I understand there are exceptions and unusual circumstances in the educational world. And as there is no way I can be aware of every classroom or sp.ed. needs student in the world, I obviously can't speak for all.

Generally also leaves out those children with IEP's who have been diagnosed oppositional/defiant and with other behavior disorders. Frequently, at least back in RI, students with such problems did have IEP's and were quite often found in general ed classrooms. I suppose that could be different here. I believe there may be some variations between the states how things are done in different states.

Also, you did not address the financial impact special education students can and do have on some school districts.

School districts are well-funded/reimbursed for their sp.ed. students. However, many school districts choose to use that money elsewhere in their budgets and then poor mouth about how sp.ed. students are breaking the piggy bank. I have little sympathy for those problems.

As for ODD students - they are not Emotionally Disturbed which is the trend for the "BD" classrooms in WV. We are moving away from students who are just PITAs (Pain in the Ass) and warehousing them in a self-contained room where they just learn more inappropriate behaviors to be PITAs with.

Those students who are truly emotionally disturbed (schizophrenia, etc) are the ones who need the intensive support of the self-contained environment/classroom.

Personally, I think there needs to be far more "co-taught" classrooms -- a special educator AND a general educator teaching the general ed. curriculum with the sp.ed. making the necessary curriculum modifications needed as well as providing behavior support for those who need it.

Sasha,

I think on the financial impact you're missing part of my point. It is accurate to say that local districts are largely reimbursed for special education expenses. That, however, doesn't negate the fact that money is coming from the taxpayers and could be spent on other things......like more AP offerings, or expanding fine arts programs.

You know it isn't an easy topic even to discuss. While my previous posts make my commitment to providing educational opportunities and services for disabled children, as I said before a balance needs to be struck.

I don't think it is responsible to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on public education services, high tech devices, a variety of tests, specialists, and so on for a child who will never read or write and not provide gifted programs for students who one day may solve our energy crisis, or cure cancer, or AIDS etc.

Look at the special education expenditures of your school district, or your school. Then examine the gifted and talented budget. Then stop and ask yourself, what opportunities are the "regular education" students missing because our special education expenditures are so dear.

WV stopped funding high school gifted programs about 20 or so years ago. A young man i was dating at the time was about the last class to graduate with their services. He certainly benefited from the support of the teacher - he was (and still is) one of those "goofy gifted" who wasn't the most successful socially. He did take many college courses offered at the high school as well as some AP courses.

The only gifted students we retain in WV beyond the 8th grade are those who are exceptionally gifted - meaning they have a disability along with their giftedness or are considered "at-risk" for dropping out in spite of their above average IQs.

Gifted education is not provided for by the federal government and the state is under no onus to provide even that which they do. Interestingly, gifted students are the only ones who are shown to improve when isolated with their peers rather than mainstreamed. The theory is they challenge each other and drive each other to higher levels of success. This isn't seen in your average classroom because the personal level of drive isn't there with most average intelligenced students. It is a rare teacher who can encourage her gifted students to perform at higher levels within her gen.ed. classroom.

I guess I've probably made your point Steph - but there are more opportunities for gifted students through the AP courses, college courses, and honors classes which are open to most students - not just the "gifted" ones. The school's thoughts are gifted students will succeed in spite of us. Kind of a sad thought.

I have taken several personal days in order to provide chaperonage for my eldest daughters' gifted trips. I try to support her programs as much as possible but it is difficult as I'm trying to save the world at the other end of the spectrum.

That being said - I would like to think there is some responsibility on the part of the parent to help enrich their children's lives. Not only the identified gifted ones, but the ones who don't test out as gifted because their talents lie in other areas. But we all know that expecting parent responsibility in education is mostly a joke.

Sasha, that was quite a silly “ranting” of biased opinions and non-subject piffle you submitted in response to my last Post. Your comments appear to me to be nothing more than disguised CYA’s and PJE’s. But I will address them anyway, to wit:

wvsasha wrote:

SamCogar wrote:Sasha,

I am curious though, why is it that people like yourself insist on enrolling severely mentally handicapped individuals in the Public Schools, when they are only capable of functioning on "a 12 month intellectual level",

It is because it is their right to have an education. Period. End of story.

HORSEPUCKY, our government only insures their “right” to attend a Public School ……. but which is conditional on how they conduct themselves when attending said. Administrators have the right to “expel students” for a variety of misconducts.

wvsasha wrote: They are citizens of the United States just like you.

HAH, citizenship does not seem to be a prerequisite for attending a Public School. Children of illegal immigrants …… and even illegal immigrant children who cross the Border each day, ….. are gladly enrolled in our Public Schools ……. because “more kids = more taxpayer money”.

wvsasha wrote: We educate our young.

HORSEPUCKY and double HAH, HAH. …… See quoted article below.

wvsasha wrote: We do not discriminate based on ability for education.

The hell you say. Our Public Schools are rampant with discrimination based on abilities. And not just in sports. Sasha, please tell me, ….. just what are AP Classes …… or “gifted programs”?

wvsasha wrote: Their parents pay their taxes just like you.

Just about everyone pays taxes in one form or another. And many parents are given more taxpayer money than they ever pay in taxes. Primarily those whose children get a “clothing allowance” and “free meals” at School.

wvsasha wrote: Who are you to say their child shouldn't attend school?

OOOOOHHHH, ….. Sasha,, …… that was a discriminatory remark, was it not? Do you actually believe that only you and yours are authorized and qualified to make such remarks and/or decisions?

Public Schools are for students capable of “learning” the knowledge and skills needed to become a productive member of our society.

Sasha, given said, and your comments and stance on this subject, …… you are guilty of blatant discrimination, …. which is contrary to what you stated above.

Blatant discrimination against those who are capable of learning ……. and favoring those who are incapable of learning.

Sasha, you would favor the expelling of a “normal student” for beating up on a Teacher or Aide, …… but would console and cajole an “incompetent student” for doing the same.

Sasha, what is it with you anyway? You criticize me because I am absolutely AGAINST “Inclusion”, yet you made these statements in another post, to wit:

wvsasha wrote: We are moving away from students who are just PITAs (Pain in the Ass) and warehousing them in a self-contained room where they just learn more inappropriate behaviors to be PITAs with.

Those students who are truly emotionally disturbed (schizophrenia, etc) are the ones who need the intensive support of the self-contained environment/classroom.

Sasha, me thinks you are discriminating against all students except the MIs (Mentally Incompetents) ……. who are PITAs themselves.

GEEEZE Sasha, why not assign a “full-time” Aide for each of those PITAs?

wvsasha wrote: Should we just line them up for the train heading to Auschwitz?

Well Sasha, that is not necessary in that most of you Teachers already think you have “the expertise, power and authority” of the Gestapo and no one is intelligent enough or capable of telling you anything, …. ZILCH, …. NADA, …… NOTHING..

wvsasha wrote: Who else should they take with them? The elderly? How old is too old?

GEEEZUS, the elderly are doing just fine. The have their elaborate Senior Centers, Nursing homes, in-home care, etc., etc.

wvsasha wrote: One-legged people? What about amputee soldiers? Surely they aren't of much use anymore.

HA, I see your “mindset” hasn’t changed much from when you were a kid in school. Still “looking down your nose” at those you consider “cripples”, huh?

wvsasha wrote: It's about what's right and about the inherent dignity of humanity.

YUP, and sacrificing a “good education” for the many, …… for the “non-education” of the few, …….. is not about “what’s right”, …….. its all about “money”.

So, here Sasha, read the following ……. and then tell me again how ….

“We educate our young”

Educators beefing up state testing, classroom instruction

State school officials are working to toughen the curriculum in public schools and the tests used to measure student achievement, in part because student performance in the Mountain State continues to slide in comparison to other states.

Beginning in the spring of 2009, students will be given a new, more difficult WESTEST.

The statewide assessment is given to all third- through eighth-graders and to all high school sophomores to measure their math and language arts skills.

The test has been revamped in conjunction with changing content standards, which reflect the kind of coursework teachers are expected to teach and what students are supposed to learn in various programs.

State School Superintendent Steve Paine said the decision to change both the WESTEST and classroom standards came after officials recognized West Virginia students are not well prepared to compete for jobs.

Students' scores on national tests - specifically the National Assessment of Education Progress - also have declined.

NAEP scores are used to see how well states are preparing students and to assess which areas of the country are lagging academically.

In a study released earlier this year by Gary Phillips, chief analyst at the American Institutes for Research, eighth-grade students in West Virginia had lower NAEP math scores than students in 45 states.

They came in 26th in the country with their science scores.

Paine said the state's demands and expectations have been too low for many of the core classes, including math and science.

"We have noticed that the levels of cognitive demand in our content standards don't position our kids to be globally competitive," Paine said.
----------------

"Our workers today need to be very creative and innovative," Paine said. "We can remain competitive if we can teach our kids, our prospective employees, to be creative and innovative and be very smart."

Thinking skills: Revised standards require students to engage in activities in which they must demonstrate critical thinking ability and solve real and hypothetical problems.
etc., etc.

http://www.dailymail.com/News/200801020190

GEEEZE, now wasn't that a remarkable statement that was made by Mr. Payne, .... to wit:



I wonder if a $10K - $20K bribe would help any?

.

So should we give up? Throw out the babies with the bath water because what we are currently doing doesn't measure up to other arbitrary standardized scores?

if we did nothing and just did the same ole, same ole -- you'd be damning us for complacency.

I do not equate PITAs with students with true emotional disturbances. And no, I wouldn't hold the hand of either if they hurt someone else, or even themselves. Both can, and should, be disciplined appropriately.

I don't consider my paycheck a bribe either. And I don't have to CYA or justify my job.

There used to be centers in each county/area where the most severe mentally impaired students could be educated in life skills -- in Kanawha County Elk Elementary Center off Mink Shoals used to be Owen's Center, in Wood County the elementary school next to Edison Jr. High used to be such a center - but then the court's decided that "separate wasn't equal" and declared such a separation to be illegal. I don't think the centers were used for more than a few years at the most.

It would most definitely be more cost effective to educate MI students in one place where all the resources and educators can be concentrated where the greatest needs are. But it doesn't address the larger need of educating society about the basic humanity of people with disabilities. I see everyday "general ed" students providing assistance to their peers with various handicaps and not giving a second thought to it. I see them eating lunch together. I see them being friends.

When I was going to elementary school in the '70s - braxton and wood counties - "those" kids weren't anywhere in sight. In junior high and high school, I don't even know where "those" classrooms were let alone where the kids were. Things have changed greatly since then and I believe for the better.

But I get the feeling that none of this means squat to you.

Sam - I just wish you would tell me what is your dog in this fight? I feel like it's something other than just being a tax payer.

wvsasha wrote:But I get the feeling that none of this means squat to you.

Sam - I just wish you would tell me what is your dog in this fight? I feel like it's something other than just being a tax payer.

Maybe it's just a matter of Sam flaunting his "expertise", from a previous post this thread, to wit:

SamCogar wrote:Sasha, I assure you, for what it is worth, my self-proclaimed "expertise" is not a figment of my imagination. Cheers

"For what it is worth".

wvsasha wrote:So should we give up?

Sasha, …. “YES”, you should give up, ……. the School System is in a hole, ……… quit digging.

wvsasha wrote:Throw out the babies with the bath water because what we are currently doing doesn't measure up to other arbitrary standardized scores?

Ya can’t be “measuring up” …… when ya keep “digging down”.

So, …. “NO”, ….. quit throwing out the babies and start educating them …… by quit doing what you are currently doing and start doing what you haven’t been doing the past 20+- years.

wvsasha wrote:if we did nothing and just did the same ole, same ole -- you'd be damning us for complacency.

Well “DUH”, what the hell do you think I am “damming” the School System for? Hundreds of million$ of dollars expended over the past 20 years on salary increases, equipment and buildings and the only improvements I’ve seen are the new buildings and they don’t even take care of them. The waste, neglect and mismanagement of School resources is gawd awful. Accountability is lacking at all levels and jobs in the System and that is because no one gives a shidt.

The way I see it, and the facts bear it out, a long time ago the Schools, Administrators, Teachers and Service Personnel were there …… because the students needed to be educated and they were.

Now days, the Schools and the students are there …… because the Administrators, Teachers and Service Personnel need a good paying job with great benefits, no accountability of job performance and early retirement if they choose.

And no, Sasha, those “other standardized scores” you speak of are not arbitrary. They are, or should be, established as minimum requirements for gaining College entrance and/or acquiring gainful employment and performing the work associated with said.

It appears that West Virginia Educators have established their own arbitrary standardized scores that best serve the Educators rather than the students. Over the years, the quality of instruction has decreased, ……. the actual number of Instructional Days has decreased substantially, …… resulting in the student’s scores decreasing, …… which necessitated the Administrators to arbitrarily decrease their “standardized scores” so that students would receive a “passing grade”.

Thus, the students test scores are high enough to graduate from High School, …… but their subject knowledge and skills are inadequate for College entrance and/or acquiring and performing gainful employment.

wvsasha wrote:I do not equate PITAs with students with true emotional disturbances. And no, I wouldn't hold the hand of either if they hurt someone else, or even themselves. Both can, and should, be disciplined appropriately.

So Sasha, what is your “arbitrary scale” for determining the difference between “a dangerous student” with an MI brain, a PITA brain and a TED brain?

wvsasha wrote:I don't consider my paycheck a bribe either. And I don't have to CYA or justify my job.

Hell no you don’t, State statutes give you the right not to.

wvsasha wrote:There used to be centers in each county/area where the most severe mentally impaired students could be educated in life skills -- in Kanawha County Elk Elementary Center off Mink Shoals used to be Owen's Center, in Wood County the elementary school next to Edison Jr. High used to be such a center - but then the court's decided that "separate wasn't equal" and declared such a separation to be illegal. I don't think the centers were used for more than a few years at the most.

That decision should be easily overturned …… because the State itself operates Institutions where “mentally impaired persons” are confined, such as Sharpe Hospital in Weston.

wvsasha wrote:It would most definitely be more cost effective to educate MI students in one place where all the resources and educators can be concentrated where the greatest needs are. But it doesn't address the larger need of educating society about the basic humanity of people with disabilities. I see everyday "general ed" students providing assistance to their peers with various handicaps and not giving a second thought to it. I see them eating lunch together. I see them being friends.

Sasha, you are joking of course, ….. right?

GEEEZUS, ya can’t even educate the students in the “3 R’s”, …… and ya got a “blue sky dream” that you are gonna change a basic aspect of inherited and nurtured human nature. GIMME A BREAK …… You can teach some of them “tolerance”, but even that has its boundaries.

wvsasha wrote:When I was going to elementary school in the '70s - braxton and wood counties - "those" kids weren't anywhere in sight. In junior high and high school, I don't even know where "those" classrooms were let alone where the kids were. Things have changed greatly since then and I believe for the better.

Sasha, did ya ever think that back then there were not very many of “those” kids around? And that is why you never seen any of them. Back then, drug use was not rampart and medical science was not attempting to save any and every fetus that was conceived.

wvsasha wrote:But I get the feeling that none of this means squat to you.

It doesn’t, ….. but it sure as hell “means squat” for all the children …… and theirs and the future of this great nation in particular ……. and humanity in general. I cringe at the thought of the “world’ they will have to endure in ……. if things don’t change from the path it is on.

wvsasha wrote:Sam - I just wish you would tell me what is your dog in this fight? I feel like it's something other than just being a tax payer.

Sasha, someone has to be concerned about the future of the children who are capable of being educated and trained “to carry on”…… and the Public School System and its employees really don’t seem to give a damn whether or not they are.

They are not even concerned about who will be paying for their future salaries or the billion$ of dollars in unfunded liabilities needed for paying their retirement and healthcare.