Happy Birthday, Abraham Lincoln!

by SFCraig Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:31 am

Sorry, Ron Paul supporters! Laughing

So, free-thinking Indies and Libertarians....what do you disagree with Ron Paul about?

by Cato Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:11 pm

SFCraig wrote:Sorry, Ron Paul supporters!

So, free-thinking Indies and Libertarians....what do you disagree with Ron Paul about?

While I agree in principle with his foreign policy, I'm not fully convienced that an immediate and complete withdraw from Iraq or from the war on terror is a wise move. I agree we should have never been there, however, the reality is, we are. The reality is also that if we leave we are going to leave a void that someone is going to step in and fill. While Iraq may never have had WMDs they do have the assets to obtain them, especially with the price of oil today. Additionally, whiel we have never fought the war on terror to win, just walking away may present islamic fanatics with the wrong picture, one where we send the message we are weak. That is one message we do not want to send to the islamic fanatics.

Oh, by the way, Abraham Lincoln was not a good president.

by SFCraig Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:56 pm

Cato wrote:

Oh, by the way, Abraham Lincoln was not a good president.

That's why I said, "Sorry!" Smile

Do you agree with Paul that we got what was coming to us on 9/11 due to our disastrous foreign policies?

by **Stephanie** Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:16 pm

SFCraig wrote:
Cato wrote:

Oh, by the way, Abraham Lincoln was not a good president.

That's why I said, "Sorry!"

Do you agree with Paul that we got what was coming to us on 9/11 due to our disastrous foreign policies?

That's an outrageous misrepresentation of what Congressman Paul has said, and continues to say, about the 9/11 attacks. I'm convinced you well know he never said anything approaching "we got what was coming to us".

You're showing your true colors here, Craig. Now we all know you can't be relied upon to be fair and truthful. I'm glad we got that out of the way early in our "relationship" with each other.

by SamCogar Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:17 am

That's right, Craig, you statement about Paul is no different that Ziggy's statement calling GWB a "mass murderer".

We all know that if anyone was to be called "mass murders" it would be the "Bush Hating" Democrats ........ because they "joined with terrorists" to fight Bush and our Military in Iraq, doing anything and everything possible to INSURE THEIR DEFEAT.

.

by SFCraig Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:18 am

What are you talking about?

I think Lew Rockwell says it well here:

http://www.mises.org/story/2588

But in any case, tell me what Paul's position is on 9/11 then. It was my understanding that he has chronicled the "blowback" of our policies in the Middle East, such as the Shah, the bombing and starvation of Iraq, etc.

by **Stephanie** Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:48 am

SFCraig wrote:What are you talking about?

I think Lew Rockwell says it well here:

http://www.mises.org/story/2588

But in any case, tell me what Paul's position is on 9/11 then. It was my understanding that he has chronicled the "blowback" of our policies in the Middle East, such as the Shah, the bombing and starvation of Iraq, etc.

This is what I'm talking about:

SFCraig wrote:Do you agree with Paul that we got what was coming to us on 9/11 due to our disastrous foreign policies?

Anyone with even a rudimentary command of the English language can understand the difference between your misrepresentation quoted above, and what Congressman Paul correctly states about the reasons we were attacked by Islamic extremists.

Congressman Paul's statement to Congress the day after 9/11 makes his thoughts and his feelings quite clear.

September 12, 2001

Yesterday, Americans were awakened to find ourselves in a war, attacked by barbarians who targeted innocent civilians. This despicable act reveals how deep-seated is the hatred that has driven this war.

Though many Americans have just become aware of how deeply we are involved in this war, it has been going on for decades. We are obviously seen by the terrorists as an enemy.

In war there is no more reprehensible act than for combatants to slaughter innocent civilian bystanders. This is what happened yesterday.

If there is such a thing, a moral war is one that is only pursued in self-defense. Those who initiate aggression against others for the purpose of occupation or merely to invoke death and destruction are unforgivable and serve only to spread wanton killing.

In our grief, we must remember our responsibilities. The Congress' foremost obligation in a constitutional republic is to preserve freedom and provide for national security. Yesterday our efforts to protect our homeland came up short. Our policies that led to that shortcoming must be reevaluated and changed if found to be deficient.

When we retaliate for this horror we have suffered, we must be certain that only the guilty be punished. More killing of innocent civilians will only serve to flame the fires of war and further jeopardize our security. Congress should consider its constitutional authority to grant letters of marque and reprisal to meet our responsibility.

Demanding domestic security in times of war invites carelessness in preserving civil liberties and the right of privacy. Frequently the people are only too anxious for their freedoms to be sacrificed on the altar of authoritarianism thought to be necessary to remain safe and secure. Nothing would please the terrorists more than if we willingly give up some of our cherished liberties while defending ourselves from their threat.

It is our job to wisely choose our policies and work hard to understand the root causes of the war in which we find ourselves.

We must all pray for peace and ask for God's guidance for our President, our congressional leaders, and all America- and for the wisdom and determination required to resolve this devastating crisis.

If you're still "confused" about what Ron Paul thinks the American people deserve, I suggest you visit http://www.ronpaullibrary.org where you can read articles and speeches on this, and a variety of other topics.

by SFCraig Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:54 am

Do you agree with his statement that US Foreign Policy was a "major contributing factor.... They attacked us because we've been over there; we've been bombing Iraq for 10 years. We've been in the Middle East..."

I do. Do you, yes or no?

by ziggy Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:58 am

SamCogar wrote:That's right, Craig, you statement about Paul is no different that Ziggy's statement calling GWB a "mass murderer".

We all know that if anyone was to be called "mass murders" it would be the "Bush Hating" Democrats ........ because they "joined with terrorists" to fight Bush and our Military in Iraq, doing anything and everything possible to INSURE THEIR DEFEAT.

Sam, those "Bush Hating" Democrats in Congress have fallen all over themselves to appropriate hundreds of billions of dollars to fund the continued U.S. military occupation of Iraq. How is that fighting "Bush and our military in Iraq, doing anything and everything possible to INSURE THEIR DEFEAT"?

What do you want them to do? Stop funding Bush and our military in Iraq? Why can't you make up your mind?

by **Stephanie** Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:11 pm

SFCraig wrote:Do you agree with his statement that US Foreign Policy was a "major contributing factor.... They attacked us because we've been over there; we've been bombing Iraq for 10 years. We've been in the Middle East..."

I do. Do you, yes or no?

I agree with Congressman Paul completely on this issue. It is one of the primary reasons I support his candidacy.

Do you think that saying our illogical foreign policy is a major contributing factor to the reasons why we were attacked on September 11, 2001 is the same thing as saying innocent civilians deserved to die at the hands of murderous cowards? I sure don't.

by ziggy Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:27 pm

Stephanie wrote:Do you think that saying our illogical foreign policy is a major contributing factor to the reasons why we were attacked on September 11, 2001 is the same thing as saying innocent civilians deserved to die at the hands of murderous cowards? I sure don't.

I agree with you on that, Stephanie. But I figure that you are about to get flamed- though probably not by Craig.

by **Stephanie** Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:35 pm

ziggy wrote:
Stephanie wrote:Do you think that saying our illogical foreign policy is a major contributing factor to the reasons why we were attacked on September 11, 2001 is the same thing as saying innocent civilians deserved to die at the hands of murderous cowards? I sure don't.

I agree with you on that, Stephanie. But I figure that you are about to get flamed- though probably not by Craig.

You know me well enough by now to realize I won't be bullied. Craig is about to learn that and that I won't allow outrageous lies go unchallenged.

by SFCraig Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:28 pm

You misunderstand again. I said I agree with Dr. Paul on that.

It is not helpful for those who support him to sugarcoat what he's done or said, in my opinion.

You think you have a foe in me but you don't. I think you think I'm out to attack Dr. Paul and I'm not.

The earlier posts re: racism is a sad fact of American politics today, mostly on the Right. Republican candidates have to wink and nod at racists and anti-semites since they appealed to them under Nixon's Southern Strategy.

by **Stephanie** Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:53 pm

SFCraig wrote:You misunderstand again. I said I agree with Dr. Paul on that.

It is not helpful for those who support him to sugarcoat what he's done or said, in my opinion.

You think you have a foe in me but you don't. I think you think I'm out to attack Dr. Paul and I'm not.

The earlier posts re: racism is a sad fact of American politics today, mostly on the Right. Republican candidates have to wink and nod at racists and anti-semites since they appealed to them under Nixon's Southern Strategy.

I'm not sugar coating anything. You're attempting to mischaracterize what Ron Paul has said about the cause of attacks against our country. He never said Americans deserve to be murdered, or to be targets. You say you're not attacking him, but you surely are not congratulating him for having the courage and wisdom to speak the truth.

When Richard Nixon was elected president I was 3 years old. I don't have to wink or nod at anyone. The fact that there have been racist Republicans is no more of a reflection on Ron Paul than Robert Byrd's participation in the KKK is a reflection on every elected Democrat.

by SFCraig Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:09 pm

Where on earth did you see me say that Paul said Americans deserve to be murdered? I am agreeing with Paul that the Al Qaeda attacks are a direct result of our disastrous foreign policies. That does not sanction murder or 9/11, but it does EXPLAIN it.

These were not "people who hate our freedoms" or that other Xenophobic pabulum that we're fed.

These are people who despise our presence in their Holy Lands, our support of Israel over Palestine, our bombing and starvation of Iraqi men, women, children.

That is blowback, n'est-ce pas?

by **ohio county** Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:39 pm

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/02/change-of-heart.html

Earlier this week the Egytpians chased the Palestinians out of their malls and back into Gaza claiming that they "only had so much patience". Does this man that Egyptians support and love the Palestinians as icons but not as human beings?

by SFCraig Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:45 pm

Good one, O.C.!

So, the Egyptians think that Palestinians belong in Palestine?

I think the Canaanites might disagree......... Smile

by **Stephanie** Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:32 pm

SFCraig wrote:
Cato wrote:

Oh, by the way, Abraham Lincoln was not a good president.

That's why I said, "Sorry!"

Do you agree with Paul that we got what was coming to us on 9/11 due to our disastrous foreign policies?

Craig,

I don't know how else anyone can take the above phrase..."we got what was coming to us" other than we deserved what we got. That is what you said. I'm not putting words in your mouth or making anything up.

Now, perhaps you don't consider the victims in the towers or on those planes to be murder victims. Perhaps you think of them as casualties of war. Is that it? Not that I would think that is any better, mind you. I'm just trying to understand the way your mind works.

I agree with Ron Paul, our policies over the course of the last several decades have incensed Arab Muslims. This isn't difficult to imagine or hard to understand. We need to put ourselves in their place. How would we feel if etc. That isn't the disagreement I am having with you.

Now perhaps you feel that "we got what we deserved". I do not. I very seldom say I speak on behalf of Ron Paul because I am not Ron Paul, he is not my husband, my brother, my friend.....he is a public figure, an elected official. However, I have heard him speak numerous times on television, twice in person, have read much of what he has written and I feel I can say with certainty Ron Paul does not think "we got what we deserved".

I have empathy for Muslims. I understand their outrage, I share their frustration. I have compassion for them as I do all oppressed people. That doesn't mean I agree with their tactics.

Let me give you another example, this time on an issue we are sure to disagree on. I am prolife. I know in my heart that killing an unborn human being while he or she is still within the womb is every bit as much murder as killing a day old infant, or a 30 year old man or woman, or a 90 year old person. Doctors who perform abortions are murderers. That doesn't mean I condone murdering abortionists or bombing abortion clinics.

by Cato Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:07 pm

SFCraig wrote:
Cato wrote:

Oh, by the way, Abraham Lincoln was not a good president.

That's why I said, "Sorry!"

Do you agree with Paul that we got what was coming to us on 9/11 due to our disastrous foreign policies?

9/11 was an act of cowardice and murder perpertrated by a group of vile hate filled muslim fanatic faggots. The only reason they did what they did was that they lack the courage to fight face on. Trying to blame it on the policies of the the past 75 years or so serves no purpose, in fact, is counter productive. So, do I agree that we got what was coming to us on 9/11 because of our policies, no I don't. What I do think is that we need to step away from being the policeman of the world and let the other nations do the job.

by SFCraig Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:38 pm

Again, I say to you Stephanie, that you misread what I am saying. In fact, we are in agreement with each other and with Dr. Paul.

"We got what was coming to us" means "we did X, Y was the result" and an obvious result. Our foreign policy has been unusually cruel and its victims are rightfully angry.

When you topple Democratically elected Governments you shouldn't expect a pizza party. Smile

I hope that clarifies what I (we) mean.

Murder is never justifiable whether it's Americans or Saudis doing the murdering. I do understand that our policies helped to foment anger, starvation, death that results in what is termed "blowback".

RE: Abortion, I am inclined to agree with you as well. However, maybe it's the Libertarian in me that say the Government should leave such difficult decisions to a woman and her doctor. Heck, maybe I respect women and their rights too much? I can't imagine how difficult it would be for a woman to be forced by her Government to give birth to a child born of rape or incest. No matter what she decides, the decision and the pain that results from it are hers and hers alone to bear.

by **Stephanie** Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:57 pm

SFCraig wrote:Again, I say to you Stephanie, that you misread what I am saying. In fact, we are in agreement with each other and with Dr. Paul.

"We got what was coming to us" means "we did X, Y was the result" and an obvious result. Our foreign policy has been unusually cruel and its victims are rightfully angry.

When you topple Democratically elected Governments you shouldn't expect a pizza party.

I hope that clarifies what I (we) mean.

Murder is never justifiable whether it's Americans or Saudis doing the murdering. I do understand that our policies helped to foment anger, starvation, death that results in what is termed "blowback".

RE: Abortion, I am inclined to agree with you as well. However, maybe it's the Libertarian in me that say the Government should leave such difficult decisions to a woman and her doctor. Heck, maybe I respect women and their rights too much? I can't imagine how difficult it would be for a woman to be forced by her Government to give birth to a child born of rape or incest. No matter what she decides, the decision and the pain that results from it are hers and hers alone to bear.

I have no desire to turn this thread into a debate on abortion. However, I must point out that "the libertarian" in you provides no liberties for fathers, or for unborn children either. We all know only a very small percentage of abortions are performed because of rape or incest. Now that we have the "morning after pill" so readily available in this country abortions due to rape must be extremely small.

Yet if I were pregnant I could have my husband's child aborted without ever consulting him. What's worse, I could abort his child to spite him if I were so inclined and there would be nothing he could do about it.

Abortion is murder, the why a person commits murder doesn't justify the crime.

by SFCraig Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:18 pm

Nor do I.

However, the right for you to abort without your husband's consent is a right that is consistent with individual liberty. He should not have a legal say in what perils you put yourself through. If we want to debate that, let's start another thread.

But are we in general agreement re: Paul, that our foreign policy sucks?

by **Stephanie** Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:28 pm

Sucks isn't an adequate word to describe our foreign policy.

by SFCraig Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:52 pm

We DO agree! Smile

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