Now here is someone I can agree with.

Stephanie wrote:

Aaron wrote:The reason they outnumbered Jews 20-1 BEFORE the Balfour Decision was due to the Ottoman Empire. Seems they sided with the wrong side in WW1, was defeated in the war and as such lost their land. That's how war works. And considering that's how the Arab’s gained the land to start with, well, that's how war works. As the victor, it was Great Britian's land to do with as they pleased.

But that's just my 2 cents.

Aaron,

You're analogy isn't a very good one. The people of that area didn't have the right to "choose a side". They were part of the Ottoman Empire, meaning they lacked the ability to make important political decisions like "choosing sides" in a war.

You are right. My history was off. Not on the Ottoman Empire, that part was correct, as was the fact that the Arab world was under control of the Ottoman Empire. Where I was wrong was in how Britain and France gained control of what is basically the Middle East as we know it today. They did so by supporting the Arab Revolt of 1916 against the Ottoman Empire after they aligned with the Germans to fight against the Russians, creating a second front during the war.

The English agreed to support that Arab world in war and in independence if they would revolt against the Ottoman Empire. The story is long and depend on who you listen to regarding the independence agreement, either the Arab's agreed to English control or the English and French reneged on the agreement but essentially, that is how England gained control of the Middle East.

I would probably say the English went back on their deal considering they authored the Balfour Declaration but that doesn't change the fact that without British forces, the Otts would have totally annihilated the Arabs had they revolted. It also doesn't change the fact that the Arab's could have revolted against the English and French if they so chose. They didn't. As I said, that's how war goes. It's how Muslims gained control of the Middle East and held it until they became part of the Ottoman Empire in the late Renaissance period.

As for what would happen in 20 years if we left Israel, the Jews might be expelled but it would be at a very high cost in loss of life for Muslims and would also likely include the use of nuclear weapons. Israel won't go down without a fight.

The ethnic cleansing of the holy land has lead to a very high price, indeed, for the Arabs.

The Jews will eventually be expelled from Israel, Aaron, unless they are willing to live within their internationally recognized borders. I fear it may be too late for that now, but we will see. Currently the White House is occupied by a man who doesn't seem unduly swayed by AIPAC and the disproportionately high number of Jews holding seats in both chambers of Congress or their radical zionist friends, including those running Tinsel Town.

How long do you suppose Israel would last without US government funding and military support?

And again I ask, Why is change INEVITABLE?

And I told you.

I just am not sure that you can understand it.

My response again:

Because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Because history shows us NO examples where societies fail to change, with time.

Conservatives are afraid of change. So far, through all of history, no conservative has been able to halt it. Not even with chains and the threat of death.

Don't kill the messenger.

In the world according to Terry and Ziggy, one cannot have convictions.

I never said that, willy, nor do I believe that.

Bearing false witness is a mortal sin...

Stephanie wrote:The ethnic cleansing of the holy land has lead to a very high price, indeed, for the Arabs.

The Jews will eventually be expelled from Israel, Aaron, unless they are willing to live within their internationally recognized borders. I fear it may be too late for that now, but we will see. Currently the White House is occupied by a man who doesn't seem unduly swayed by AIPAC and the disproportionately high number of Jews holding seats in both chambers of Congress or their radical zionist friends, including those running Tinsel Town.

How long do you suppose Israel would last without US government funding and military support?

One can argue with pretty good convictions that if the Arabs want ethnic cleansing of the Holy Land to end, they can do what the Jewish people did 1,500 hundred years ago when they were on the other end of the stick and skedaddle.

Regardless of how they gained their power or any hypothetical’s regarding discontinued US support, the bottom line is, if need be, for now, Israel can more then hold their own. And even if US support ended, they have enough firepower to stand alone for quite some time.

One can argue with pretty good convictions that if the Arabs want ethnic cleansing of the Holy Land to end, they can do what the Jewish people did 1,500 hundred years ago when they were on the other end of the stick and skedaddle.

In the first place, driving Arabs out is part and parcel of ethnic cleansing, Aaron. They don't all necessarily have to die.

In the second place, when the Jews left the region many centuries ago, land was a much more abundant resource than it is today. In case you hadn't noticed, the world's population has exploded the past few centuries or so.

Finally, when the Jews decided to head on out of the so-called holy land, nations didn't require passports for travel. Many of the people you are suggesting should abandon their homeland are unable to obtain passports, thanks to the Israeli government.

They didn't decide to leave Stephanie and they weren't ask politely.

And as far as travel goes, isn't Israel surrounded by plenty of countries that hold the same belief as Arabs in Palestine? It’s not like they have to travel thousands of miles and will likely won't find people of like faith and acceptance, is it?

Aaron,

Those countries don't want any more Palestinian refugees any more than most Americans want more Mexicans fleeing poverty and crime to cross into the USA.

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

Those countries don't want any more Palestinian refugees any more than most Americans want more Mexicans fleeing poverty and crime to cross into the USA.

Perhaps they should have thought of that way back when.

On May 14, 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel.[64] The following day the armies of five Arab countries — Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq — attacked Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.[65] Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia also sent troops to assist the Arab contingent. After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were established.

Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip. Israel was accepted as a member of the United Nations by majority vote on May 11, 1949.[66] During the conflict 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates, or about 80% of the previous Arab population, were expelled or fled the country.[67] The fate of the Palestinian refugees today is a major point of contention in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.[68][69]

Doesn't change a thing, Aaron.

Sam,

Have you given any thought to the notion that perhaps, just perhaps, the problem isn't Islam, but instead the problem lies with Great Britain, the USA and others building nations and drawing arbitrary bounderies and telling other people how to live and installing governments? Perhaps, just perhaps, me and others like me are correct.

Steph, in recent times, the Jews controlled The Holy Land, and then the Romans, and then the Christians, then Persians, then the Muslims took it in 634 AD. The Christian Crusades of the 11th and 12th Century retook it in 1099. Then Egyptian Muslims took it in 1270 and the Ottoman Turks took it from them in 1516 and held it until the Egyptian Muslims took it back in 1831. But the English forced them to give it back to the Turks in 1841 and they kept it until WWI (1917) when the British took control of it all. And it was then that the British and the principal Allied and associated powers drafted the Mandate which was formally approved by the League of Nations in 1922 and which gave Great Britain Administrative powers over Palestine on behalf of the League of Nations and which they retained until after WWII in 1948. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

So Steph, the decision of what to do with Palestine was a “right” of the British Administrators, not the Jews, not the Egyptians, not the Turks, not the Muslims, not the Persians, not the indigenous Palestinians and especially not you and your other “Johnny-come-lately” friends.

And Steph, during WWII the Palestinian Jews sided with the British and the Palestinian Muslims sided with Nazi Germany, which was a terrible mistake on their part and for which they have been “crying the blues” ever since and now you “Johnny-come-latelys” have joined in to help them “Cry Me a River” but the desert sands just keep sucking it dry.

I think the Jews would be expelled from what is now Israel.

Steph, “expelled” meaning – flying into the air in little bloody pieces, maybe?

But what about the US, ….. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN to us when the Muslim fanatics cut off our supply of oil??

Steph, you give Germany back to the Nazis and Hawaii back to the Hawaiian people and then I will listen to your complaints.

Cheers