What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

by SamCogar Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:41 am

In 2006 a pair of explosions in separate mines were caused when methane ignited in sealed off abandoned areas of the Sago and Darby mines, killing 12 and 5 miners in West Virginia and Kentucky, respectively. In each case, the seals were designed to contain methane explosions, but they failed. If a similar cause is found here — still a big "if" — it would be a tragic case of a lesson unlearned.

Forensics teams will spend the next year or so tracing back the pattern of the explosion, looking for flashpoints and sources of sparks. From there, important safety regulations will be examined, and likely updated.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36229426/ns/technology_and_science-science/

by Keli Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:33 pm

Sam,
Are you saying that Crap-and-Tax gas sequestration might not be such a good idea?

by Aaron Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:41 pm

The company I worked for before being laid off made the mine sealant that was used at that mine for about 2 years back in the early aught's.

by Keli Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:34 pm

Aaron wrote:The company I worked for before being laid off made the mine sealant that was used at that mine for about 2 years back in the early aught's.

Aaron,
Why don't they vent the methane via a shaft safely away from the mine?

by SamCogar Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:04 am

Anyone remember reading this story?

“GASSAWAY, - West Virginia has been hit by its second reported earthquake in about a week. The U.S. Geological Survey says a 2.8-magnitude earthquake occurred in Braxton County at 5:19 a.m. Sunday. The U.S. Geological Survey reported a 2.9-magnitude earthquake in Logan County on March 27. The epicenter was about 7 miles from Man.”

http://www.wvgazette.com/News/201004050194

So, on March 27 there was a 2.9-magnitude earthquake in Logan County.

Then at 5:19 a.m. Sunday, April 4th, a 2.8-magnitude earthquake occurred in Braxton County.

And 34 hours later at 3 p.m. Monday, April 5th, a powerful explosion occurred in Performance Coal Co.'s Upper Big Branch Mine-South.

And the “coal haters” immediately blamed Massey Energy for the 3rd incident when there is a high possibility that it may have been a 3rd earthquake or "aftershock" that triggered the explosion.

And given the recent chain of events I am sure most all of you will be glad to hear that Government Officials have taken steps to prevent the possibility of a far, far worse accident that potentially could have killed hundreds of people and caused tens of millions of dollars in damages.

As a result of the earthquake in Braxton County on April 4th the Corps of Engineers have taken the precaution and drained the Lake at Sutton Dam so that they could inspect the Dam itself for any possible damage that may have been caused by the earthquake.

It would not be a pretty sight if the Dam ruptured and a 1,500 acre lake of water went gushing down the Elk River toward Charleston.

If it did, and you were down river, then lol!

.

by Aaron Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:18 am

Keli wrote:
Aaron wrote:The company I worked for before being laid off made the mine sealant that was used at that mine for about 2 years back in the early aught's.

Aaron,
Why don't they vent the methane via a shaft safely away from the mine?

I don't know Keli. If I'm not mistaken, they used to do that long ago. It would seem like the smart thing to do imho.

I do know we made a lot of the sealant that was placed over the block to seal off shafts and sent truck loads of it to Performance Coal Company.

by **Stephanie** Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:14 am

Before I heard about the explosion at the mine, Channel 8 news reported there was another minor quake in the Logan County area. I heard that while channel surfing right around 3pm. There was nothing on I wanted to see and I shut the tv off until 6pm when I first heard the awful news.

I never heard another word about a quake on that day but I have been wondering if a quake caused the explosion, or if the explosion was initially thought to be an earthquake.

by SamCogar Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:57 pm

They can calculate the exact time when the earth started shaking by the seismagraph reading, but to pinpoint the exact time of the explosion they would have to find a couple or three wristwatches or pocket watches in the mine that had stopped as a result of the explosion.

If the time on a couple stopped watches was later than the seismagraph time, then an earthquake caused it.

by ziggy Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:08 pm

So, on March 27 there was a 2.9-magnitude earthquake in Logan County.

Then at 5:19 a.m. Sunday, April 4th, a 2.8-magnitude earthquake occurred in Braxton County.

And 34 hours later at 3 p.m. Monday, April 5th, a powerful explosion occurred in Performance Coal Co.'s Upper Big Branch Mine-South.

And the “coal haters” immediately blamed Massey Energy for the 3rd incident when there is a high possibility that it may have been a 3rd earthquake or "aftershock" that triggered the explosion.

This is Sam's Prelude to "It was an act of God"- the industry's and its insurance companies' favorite tune.

by ziggy Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:19 pm

And I suppose these, too, were because of "earthquakes":

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- Parts or all of Massey Energy's Upper Big Branch Mine were ordered closed (by the U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration) more than 60 times in 2009 and 2010, and the mine was repeatedly cited in recent months for allowing potentially explosive coal dust to accumulate, according to newly released government documents.

"We are not talking about parking tickets here," said Pat McGinley, a West Virginia University law professor and coal industry expert. "When a mine's ventilation system isn't working properly or there is an unacceptable accumulation of coal dust even for an hour, miners lives are put at risk."

http://www.wvgazette.com/News/201004080359

by **Stephanie** Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:36 pm

Look, I am not speaking for anybody but me. I want to make that clear up front.

I don't know what caused the explosion. Even if it were the result of an earthquake, perhaps the quake wouldn't have caused it if the conditions were better.

It seems to me with so many violations in that mine regulators should have shut it down. We hear all the politicians screaming for new legislation before they have all the facts. It seems to me the trouble wasn't a lack of regulation, but failure of enforcement.

by Aaron Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:48 pm

ziggy wrote:And I suppose these, too, were because of "earthquakes":

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- Parts or all of Massey Energy's Upper Big Branch Mine were ordered closed (by the U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration) more than 60 times in 2009 and 2010, and the mine was repeatedly cited in recent months for allowing potentially explosive coal dust to accumulate, according to newly released government documents.

"We are not talking about parking tickets here," said Pat McGinley, a West Virginia University law professor and coal industry expert. "When a mine's ventilation system isn't working properly or there is an unacceptable accumulation of coal dust even for an hour, miners lives are put at risk."

http://www.wvgazette.com/News/201004080359

Why didn't MSHA even begin the shutdown procedure for a pattern of violations?

by ziggy Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:08 am

Aaron wrote:Why didn't MSHA even begin the shutdown procedure for a pattern of violations?

A better question is why didn't the company either shut it down or fix the problems? The company had far more power to do what was needed to prevent this than did any government agency.

by TerryRC Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:55 am

A better question is why didn't the company either shut it down or fix the problems? The company had far more power to do what was needed to prevent this than did any government agency.

Not only that - Massey never even paid the fines from being cited for improper safety standards at this mine.

I think Sam is on the money with the earthquake thing. I had never put the two together. Hate to admit it, but that was some slick reasoning. Combined with a drop in air pressure, methane would flow out of cracks in the seam by the possible ton - fractures possibly made by the recent quakes.

When my wife heard they were drilling shafts to vent the gasses, she said, "Why in the hell weren't those there in the first place..."?

I have heard but have not been able to verify that this was a mine scheduled to be shut down. That may explain why the safety measures were never implemented.

by Aaron Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:09 am

ziggy wrote:
Aaron wrote:Why didn't MSHA even begin the shutdown procedure for a pattern of violations?

A better question is why didn't the company either shut it down or fix the problems? The company had far more power to do what was needed to prevent this than did any government agency.

That's not a better question Ziggy. Hell, that's not even a relevant question as we all know why the company didn't shut it down and fix the problems. You can speak of profits over people and corporate big wigs who don’t care about the working man but simply put, the reason Massey didn’t shut the mine down is because it was not forced to by MSHA.

In a perfect world, all people would act in good faith, there would be no unsafe working conditions, companies would do the right thing and there would be no need for oversight agencies such as MSHA.

But we don't live in a perfect world, employers place profits over safety, employees take shortcuts and thus we have MSHA as an oversight agency, with clear cut rules and regulations that they as well as the company are supposed to follow.

But when oversight agencies don't enforce the rules or make paying a simple fine part of the rules, and the company is merely acting within the guidelines of regulations as they are enforced, how can you say they aren't acting in good faith?

While I fault Massey here for putting their employees in unsafe working conditions and I believe the government should throw the book at them, I find MSHA, at the very least, just as culpable because they knew about the conditions. Yet in spite of what current regulations require, MSHA inspectors and area personnel did nothing. That is just as inexcusable as Don Blankenship's actions and thus MSHA agents are just as responsible as Massey employees.

by ziggy Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:35 pm

That's not a better question Ziggy. Hell, that's not even a relevant question as we all know why the company didn't shut it down and fix the problems.

If "we all know" why the company didn't shut it down and fix the problems, then maybe you can enlighten a dumb ole' Ziggy about that. If my car fails its annual Motor Vehicle Inspection because its has bad brakes, bad lights and bad steering, do "we all know" that I would continue to drive it until I killed a bunch of people? Do I not have a personal responsibility to keep my car off the road until it is fixed and passes the required safety inspections? Does not a corporation likewise have a personal responsibility to fix the problems at its coal mine, for example, before it kills a bunch of people?

by ziggy Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:41 pm

Maybe THIS is why MSHA did not shut down this mine before a bunch of people died in an explosion there:

Mines avoid crackdowns by challenging safety citations

A surge in the number of challenges to mine safety citations has clogged a federal appeals process, allowing 32 coal mines to avoid tougher enforcement measures last year, government safety officials said Friday.

In many cases, those mines would have been at greater risk of penalties if regulators at the Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA) later found even a single "significant and substantial" violation of safety standards.

By contesting the citations, the 32 mines were able to avoid falling into a "potential pattern of violation" category, which would have brought closer scrutiny and moved regulators a step closer to the ability to restrict or shut down operations.

Massey's Upper Big Branch mine in West Virginia, where at least 25 miners died in an explosion on Monday, had an unusually large number of those violations, including 54 in the past 12 months, a rate 11 times the national average.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/09/AR2010040905653.html?hpid=topnews

by Aaron Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:08 pm

ziggy wrote:
That's not a better question Ziggy. Hell, that's not even a relevant question as we all know why the company didn't shut it down and fix the problems.

If "we all know" why the company didn't shut it down and fix the problems, then maybe you can enlighten a dumb ole' Ziggy about that. If my car fails its annual Motor Vehicle Inspection because its has bad brakes, bad lights and bad steering, do "we all know" that I would continue to drive it until I killed a bunch of people? Do I not have a personal responsibility to keep my car off the road until it is fixed and passes the required safety inspections? Does not a corporation likewise have a personal responsibility to fix the problems at its coal mine, for example, before it kills a bunch of people?

If someone were inspecting your car every time you drove it and they knew of the defects, knew what it would take to fix your vehicle yet allowed you to jerry rig it to keep it running and fined you in such a manner that it was easier for you to pay the fine then to fix the vehicle, then they are culpable in any accident you have.

If they fined you so frequent that the law then called for them to take your car from you and they didn’t and as a result you had an accident that resulted in deaths, including your own, then they are culpable in each death, including yours as the inspecting agency was specifically created to inspect your car and prevent you from acting in the manner you did.

by Aaron Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:22 pm

ziggy wrote:Maybe THIS is why MSHA did not shut down this mine before a bunch of people died in an explosion there:

Mines avoid crackdowns by challenging safety citations

A surge in the number of challenges to mine safety citations has clogged a federal appeals process, allowing 32 coal mines to avoid tougher enforcement measures last year, government safety officials said Friday.

In many cases, those mines would have been at greater risk of penalties if regulators at the Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA) later found even a single "significant and substantial" violation of safety standards.

By contesting the citations, the 32 mines were able to avoid falling into a "potential pattern of violation" category, which would have brought closer scrutiny and moved regulators a step closer to the ability to restrict or shut down operations.

Massey's Upper Big Branch mine in West Virginia, where at least 25 miners died in an explosion on Monday, had an unusually large number of those violations, including 54 in the past 12 months, a rate 11 times the national average.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/09/AR2010040905653.html?hpid=topnews

You didn't go far enough in your story.

Some coal experts said that Massey's Upper Big Branch mine still fits the pattern-of-violation test and that MSHA should have taken tougher enforcement measures. James Sharpe, editor of "Sharpe's Point," a mine safety newsletter, argues that the mine met the tests for such classification, including the number of significant and substantial violations, "elevated enforcement" actions and an unusually high rate of citations. "There were so many of these that they would meet the criteria," Sharpe said, singling out the mine's citations for failure to control combustible coal dust. "Obviously the ventilation system was inadequate," he said.

But sources involved in congressional oversight said Massey's Upper Big Branch mine failed to meet one criterion because of the citations it was contesting.

Yet they don't say who those sources are. And I can't help but notice that the authors in this story copied Ken Ward Jr in that they keep going back and blaming GWB for loosening regulations years ago yet the fail to mention that Democrats have controlled Congress since January 2007 and could have easily restored those regulations if they so desired.

You can excuse MSHA if you want but I won't. I hold them just as responsible as Massey and imho, MSHA and it's agents should receive the same fate as Massey employees.

by **Stephanie** Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:13 pm

Well, you're more generous to MSHA officials than I am, Aaron.

Massey Coal is a for-profit entity. It doesn't exist for humanitarian purposes, it doesn't employ people so you and I can chat online. Massey Coal, just like Toyota and Pfizer and countless other businesses operate to make money.

MSHA isn't in the business of making money. They are a government agency charged with the important task of making sure mines like Upper Big Branch meet minimum safety standards for employees and the community.

So again I ask, what good are more laws and regulations going to do when MSHA doesn't enforce the ones that already exist?

by ziggy Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:46 pm

You can excuse MSHA if you want but I won't. I hold them just as responsible as Massey and imho, MSHA and it's agents should receive the same fate as Massey employees.

The fate of the Massey employees was death- at least for 29 of them. Should 29 MSHA employees be executed?

But either way, MSHA has the bigger legal burden- because under the U.S. legal system a defendent is presumed innocent until proven guilty. And as long as the law lets Massey's lawyers tie into knots the legal system that is supposed to adjudicate questionable citations, then MSHA cannot just walk up to the gate and shut down a mining operation as simply as you would have us believe.

I am not trying to excuse MSHA. But making scapegoats out of MSHA does not excuse Massey and its surviving responsible employees- not even one percent. Again Massey, many, many fold more than any other entity, had the absolute power to shut that mine down until it was brought up to standards. But instead, Massey employs a horde of lawyers to keep roadblocks up against the very agency that could have eventually forced compliance or shut it down.

by ziggy Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:05 am

So again I ask, what good are more laws and regulations going to do when MSHA doesn't enforce the ones that already exist?

Well apparently MSHA tried to enforce the laws that already existed, but the legal mechanism for adjudicating MSHA's citations for violations was allowed to be crippled into near inertia by Massey's lawyers who appealed virtually every citation to a body they knew was being crippled into inaction.

It is sort of like if every motorist appealed to a higher Court every speeding ticket issued, almost no one would be found guilty of speeding and so would neither have to pay fines nor accrue points against drivers' licenses for violations. In a situation such as that, would you blame the police officers who issue speeding tickets for the unpaid tickets and for the drivers who keep on speeding because there is no effective penalty for speeding? And when a driver continued driving 100 miles an hour and eventually wrecked and killed a bunch of people, would that then be the fault of the traffic police who issue soeeding tickets? No, of course not. MSHA issues citations for unsafe mines- tens of thousands of them. But until those citations result in a "pattern of continuing violations" as defined in law, then legally they amount to little more than fodder for paper shufflers down the lines of the legal bureaucracy.

The "tort reform" crowd hates plaintiff's lawyers. But the same bunch seems to love the lawyers who defend corporate criminals.

by ziggy Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:06 am

ziggy wrote:
So again I ask, what good are more laws and regulations going to do when MSHA doesn't enforce the ones that already exist?

Well apparently MSHA tried to enforce the laws that already existed, but the legal mechanism for adjudicating MSHA's citations for violations was allowed to be crippled into near inertia by Massey's lawyers who appealed virtually every citation to a body they knew was being crippled into inaction.

It is sort of like if every motorist appealed to a higher Court every speeding ticket issued, almost no one would be found guilty of speeding and so would neither have to pay fines nor accrue points against drivers' licenses for violations. In a situation such as that, would you blame the police officers who issue speeding tickets for the unpaid tickets and for the drivers who keep on speeding because there is no effective penalty for speeding? And when a driver continued driving 100 miles an hour and eventually wrecked and killed a bunch of people, would that then be the fault of the traffic police who issue soeeding tickets? No, of course not. MSHA issues citations for unsafe mines- tens of thousands of them. But until those citations result in a "pattern of continuing violations" as defined in law, then legally they amount to little more than fodder for paper shufflers down the lines of the legal bureaucracy.

The "tort reform" crowd hates plaintiff's lawyers. But the same bunch seems to love the lawyers who defend corporate criminals from being held accountable.

by Aaron Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:13 am

ziggy wrote:
You can excuse MSHA if you want but I won't. I hold them just as responsible as Massey and imho, MSHA and it's agents should receive the same fate as Massey employees.

The fate of the Massey employees was death- at least for 29 of them. Should 29 MSHA employees be executed?

But either way, MSHA has the bigger legal burden- because under the U.S. legal system a defendent is presumed innocent until proven guilty. And as long as the law lets Massey's lawyers tie into knots the legal system that is supposed to adjudicate questionable citations, then MSHA cannot just walk up to the gate and shut down a mining operation as simply as you would have us believe.

Under MSHA regulations which are what Massey operates under, once a pattern of violations is established MSHA, as regulated by law, must begin the process of shutting the mine down. At no time did they begin the process even though they issued 61 closure orders.

I never said it was easy but the law and the regulations are very clear and MSHA didn’t follow either the law or the regulations. It’s hard to say the same for Massey even when the conditions of the mine are taken into consideration. They followed the rules as they are put forth including acceptable MSHA exceptions which allowed the mine to remain open.

You can fault Massey all you want but it’s been my personal experience that when the punishment is a fine, companies pay it and continue business as usual, normally doing enough to remain open. But when that same company receives a cease and desist order for continued violations, operations change dramatically as that tends to get the companies attention.

ziggy wrote:I am not trying to excuse MSHA. But making scapegoats out of MSHA does not excuse Massey and its surviving responsible employees- not even one percent.

And I've not tried to excuse Massey or “its surviving responsible employees, not even one percent.” I'm just not excusing MSHA inspectors for their negligent actions as you are.

ziggy wrote:Again Massey, many, many fold more than any other entity, had the absolute power to shut that mine down until it was brought up to standards. But instead, Massey employs a horde of lawyers to keep roadblocks up against the very agency that could have eventually forced compliance or shut it down.

How much is many, many? That's debatable but what is not is that we will never know how much power MSHA had in shutting this mine down as they NEVER started the process even though regulations specifically required they do so, will we!!!

by **Stephanie** Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:18 am

Mr. Ziggy..........I am part of that pesky "tort reform" crowd.

I'm not buying what you're selling. I don't believe that MSHA is crippled by attorneys. Are you stating that MSHA cannot close a mine on the spot due to high levels of toxic gases, coal dust, and other dangerous conditions?

I don't believe it. You're going to have to pretend I'm from Missouri and show me. They can, but they don't. The question is why? Is it due to some sort of fincancial arrangement or incestuous relationship between the coal companies and inspectors?

by Sponsored content

What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?

Re: What caused W. Va. mine explosion?