The Populism of Billionaires

Wait a minute, Cato. Remember "Cash for Clunkers"? How about all the taxpayer dollars that were used to "save" huge failing corporations that still paid 6 and 7 figure bonuses to the very executives that lead their companies to the brink of bankruptcy?

I don't have a problem with extending a helping hand to somebody who is trying to make it. Times are tough. I have friends receiving food stamps, some of them working full time jobs. For the last 15 years of her life my grandmother received a small amount of food stamps a month. I believe the government should provide a safety net.

That said, I share your disgust over abuse. I share your disgust over the creation of entire populations of Americans who are totally dependent upon taxpayer dollars. It is almost unfathomable that in this great nation there families who have lived in public housing for generations, receiving food stamps and Medicare and everything from bus passes to cell phones to clothing vouchers. For some what should be temporary aid has become a lifestlye, and many times by choice.

Go on and flame the hell out of me, left & right wingnuts alike. The greatest nation in history should provide safety nets for people facing hard times, but it should not be allowed to be used to fund irresponsibility or criminal activity or a new class of American........the resource sponge.

Cato wrote:

ziggy wrote:Well, you say it "burns your butt" and that you get all emotional when you see a "baby factory" family using government welfare (food stamps). If one owns a 2009-2010 model GM or Chrysler product, that too was paid for in part by government welfare paid to GM and Chrysler. So my question is do you get as emotional about and does it burn your butt as much to see a late model GM or Chrysler car or truck that was paid for in part by government welfare to GM and Chrusler as it does to see a family using food stamps?

It also burns my butt when one has no argument so they resort to childish responces that absolutely make no sence nor have any bearing on the discussion.

If this makes no sense to you, then you are not against corporate welfare to GM and Chrysler- which is what I figured all along anyway. So you are just one more hipocrite who is OK with welfare for companies like GM and Chrysler, but opposed to it for real people. Why can't you just be honest enough to say so?

ziggy wrote:

Cato wrote:

ziggy wrote:Well, you say it "burns your butt" and that you get all emotional when you see a "baby factory" family using government welfare (food stamps). If one owns a 2009-2010 model GM or Chrysler product, that too was paid for in part by government welfare paid to GM and Chrysler. So my question is do you get as emotional about and does it burn your butt as much to see a late model GM or Chrysler car or truck that was paid for in part by government welfare to GM and Chrusler as it does to see a family using food stamps?

It also burns my butt when one has no argument so they resort to childish responces that absolutely make no sence nor have any bearing on the discussion.

If this makes no sense to you, then you are not against corporate welfare to GM and Chrysler- which is what I figured all along anyway. So you are just one more hipocrite who is OK with welfare for companies like GM and Chrysler, but opposed to it for real people. Why can't you just be honest enough to say so?

I have posted more than once that I do not support welfare for anyone, be it social, corporate, or foreign. If I had my way about it, entitlements of any sort would not exist. As far as real people goes, corporations are comprised of real people who are just as big a group of sponges as some welfare baby factory.

At first, I was going to let you have it with both barrels, but the truth is I feel sorry for you. You just have to win an argument and when you can't you throw a tantrum like a 2 year old.

I have posted more than once that I do not support welfare for anyone, be it social, corporate, or foreign.

If so, then why do you not feel the same burnt butt when you see a late model GM car or truck that was paid for by corporate welfare to GM and Chrysler as what you say you feel when you see a "baby factory" family buying groceries with food stamps?

Stephanie wrote:Wait a minute, Cato. Remember "Cash for Clunkers"? How about all the taxpayer dollars that were used to "save" huge failing corporations that still paid 6 and 7 figure bonuses to the very executives that lead their companies to the brink of bankruptcy?

Every cent spent was a waste of my dollars. I worked hard for what I had extorted by the imperial government.

Stephanie wrote:I don't have a problem with extending a helping hand to somebody who is trying to make it. Times are tough. I have friends receiving food stamps, some of them working full time jobs. For the last 15 years of her life my grandmother received a small amount of food stamps a month. I believe the government should provide a safety net.

ANd what if I don't believe the government should provide a safety net. What right right have you or anyone else to use the government to extort money from me for the sake of something you believe in.

Stephanie wrote:That said, I share your disgust over abuse. I share your disgust over the creation of entire populations of Americans who are totally dependent upon taxpayer dollars. It is almost unfathomable that in this great nation there families who have lived in public housing for generations, receiving food stamps and Medicare and everything from bus passes to cell phones to clothing vouchers. For some what should be temporary aid has become a lifestlye, and many times by choice.

Go on and flame the hell out of me, left & right wingnuts alike. The greatest nation in history should provide safety nets for people facing hard times, but it should not be allowed to be used to fund irresponsibility or criminal activity or a new class of American........the resource sponge.

However, you hit on the danger of welfare and entitlements. No matter how good the intentions is isn't long until the public or enough of the public figure out that they can vote themselves entitlements out of the treasury by who they elect. We see that happening today.

ziggy wrote:

I have posted more than once that I do not support welfare for anyone, be it social, corporate, or foreign.

If so, then why do you not feel the same burnt butt when you see a late model GM car or truck that was paid for by corporate welfare to GM and Chrysler as what you say you feel when you see a "baby factory" family buying groceries with food stamps?

Some questions for you Ziggy, especially since you've taken this route, which is childish -

1. Do you grow your own food or do you buy it from the grocery store.

2. Do you own either a GM or Crysler product

3. Do you happen to have a credit card from any of the major financial institutions that melted down

Just courious

Cato wrote:

ziggy wrote:

I have posted more than once that I do not support welfare for anyone, be it social, corporate, or foreign.

If so, then why do you not feel the same burnt butt when you see a late model GM car or truck that was paid for by corporate welfare to GM and Chrysler as what you say you feel when you see a "baby factory" family buying groceries with food stamps?

Some questions for you Ziggy, especially since you've taken this route, which is childish -

1. Do you grow your own food or do you buy it from the grocery store.

Some of both.- but more of it comes from a local grocery store than from our garden.

2. Do you own either a GM or Crysler product

Yes- 1999 Chevrolet van, and 2003 Chev. Impala

3. Do you happen to have a credit card from any of the major financial institutions that melted down. Just courious

No. I do not use credit cards. But I have debit card from a local bank- on which I can purchase goods and services up to the amount of my account balance.

I have answered your questions. Now again, why do you not feel the same burnt butt when you see a late model GM car or truck that was paid for by corporate welfare to GM and Chrysler as what you say you feel when you see a "baby factory" family buying groceries with food stamps?

Some questions for you Ziggy, especially since you've taken this route, which is childish -

It is no more childish of me to ask the question than it is childish of you to pretend that it is not directly related to a discussion about corporate welfare and real people welfare.

As far as real people goes, corporations are comprised of real people who are just as big a group of sponges as some welfare baby factory.

But apparently that does not burn your butt as long as they hide behind names like "Chevrolet" or "Pontiac", and "Dodge" and "Chrysler".

So you don't think the government should ever assist anyone? A child born severely disabled to a poor family should receive no help from the government? How about an innocent victim of violence, unable to work as a result of their injuries? What about a child without health insurance who has been victimized by a pedophile? You don't think under any of these scenarios the government should provide some level of aid?

I deplore capitol punishment and our federal government taxes us to pay for that. I don't believe the government should incarerate people for using recreational drugs (provided they aren't driving etc) and look at all the money wasted by police departments, courts, and correctional facilities.

Armed revolution or ballot box, Cato. You don't strike me as the kind of guy that would last any longer than I would in an armed rebellion against the US government. In fact, my money would be on me surviving you.

While I do not necessary agree with the argument, there are those who state that at least with corporate welfare, the government is giving to those who provide jobs and as a result provide revenue for the government.

And while some will argue that food stamps and welfare create a bottom up economy, it is a limited one and provides very little for society as a whole.

As for a safety net, the problem with government aid is that they do not know when to say when and instead of offering a hand up, they offer a hand out that is meant to give them control over lives and keep those being aided down. I would much rather aid for those you described come from private charities but then that is just me. I will say that my opinion of government aid and welfare came about from first hand experience 25 years ago when my ex was pregnant with our first child.

I don't argue with the private charity approach, Aaron. I support it, but there are circumstances that would quickly drain their resources.

Back in 1993 I had 3 children, the youngest just turned a year old and my then husband suffered a pretty serious back injury at work. He had to fight, in court, for several months to receive workers comp. It didn't take long for us to exhaust our savings and he was unable to care for the children while I worked. He couldn't lift baby Katie, much less toddler Richard.

We received food stamps and WIC and I think heating assistance for about 6 weeks. Workers Comp reimbursed it. The people at the DHHS or whatever office that was we went to apply for assistance were absolutely nasty. Wouldn't want to have to do that again.

The people at the DHHS or whatever office that was we went to apply for assistance were absolutely nasty.

Yes, I can believe that. I've heard that complaint before.

1) When one asks for public assistance, his/her self-respect and sense of dignity is often at rock bottom. And it shows.

2) People naturally crave power over others. It is easy for DHHS workers to try to put down those who are down on their luck and asking for help. For the DHHS workers, it is just a job, and the applicant is just another "deadbeat" who is not in a position to demand any particular respect.

I contrast that with a local food pantry I visited a few times a couple yeara ago as an observer and sometimes helper. The volunteer workers there seemed to genuinely and sincerely enjoy helping the "clients" who appeared for food handouts. The mutual respect shared between the needy clients and the food pantry workers was touching.

ziggy wrote:

Cato wrote:
1. Do you grow your own food or do you buy it from the grocery store.

Some of both.- but more of it comes from a local grocery store than from our garden.

Doesn't it upset you that Farmers get federal money to keep the price of food higher than it should be.

ziggy wrote:

Cato wrote: 2. Do you own either a GM or Crysler product

Yes- 1999 Chevrolet van, and 2003 Chev. Impala

Then I take it, it doesn't upset you that GM got billions from the fed. Seem hypocritical to me for you to have even brought the subject up.

ziggy wrote:

Cato wrote: 3. Do you happen to have a credit card from any of the major financial institutions that melted down. Just courious

No. I do not use credit cards. But I have debit card from a local bank- on which I can purchase goods and services up to the amount of my account balance.

You might want to take a look at the company that services the card. It could be that company is affilated with one of the biggy's that got a government bailout. Then it may not depending ont he card.

Ziggy wrote:I have answered your questions. Now again, why do you not feel the same burnt butt when you see a late model GM car or truck that was paid for by corporate welfare to GM and Chrysler as what you say you feel when you see a "baby factory" family buying groceries with food stamps?

I have answered your question numerous times. You are just too childish to read and comprehend, I guess

Cato wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Cato wrote:
1. Do you grow your own food or do you buy it from the grocery store.

Some of both.- but more of it comes from a local grocery store than from our garden.

Doesn't it upset you that Farmers get federal money to keep the price of food higher than it should be.

I am not the one complaining about government welfare. You are. But by your answer you acknowledge that you do understand the relevance of the question that you refuse to answer.

ziggy wrote:

Cato wrote: 2. Do you own either a GM or Crysler product

Yes- 1999 Chevrolet van, and 2003 Chev. Impala

Then I take it, it doesn't upset you that GM got billions from the fed. Seem hypocritical to me for you to have even brought the subject up.

Both vehicles I own were manufactured and sold several years before the Bush and Obama gifts of billions to GM were awarded. Again, I am not the one complaining about government welfare. You are. But again, by your answer you achnowledge that you do understand the relevance of the question that you refuse to answer.

ziggy wrote:

Cato wrote: 3. Do you happen to have a credit card from any of the major financial institutions that melted down. Just courious

No. I do not use credit cards. But I have debit card from a local bank- on which I can purchase goods and services up to the amount of my account balance.

You might want to take a look at the company that services the card. It could be that company is affilated with one of the biggy's that got a government bailout. Then it may not depending ont he card.

Once again, I am not the one complaining about government welfare. You are. But yet again, by your answer you acknowledge that you do understand the relevance of the question that you refuse to answer.

Ziggy wrote:I have answered your questions. Now again, why do you not feel the same burnt butt when you see a late model GM car or truck that was paid for by corporate welfare to GM and Chrysler as what you say you feel when you see a "baby factory" family buying groceries with food stamps?

I have answered your question numerous times. You are just too childish to read and comprehend, I guess.

You have not answered the question about does it burn your butt when you see a GM or Chrysler car as you say it does when you see a family buying groceries with food stamps. By hiding behind the corporate veil, the corporations that receive government welfare magically escape the wrath of the hipocrite Cato- who reserves his burning butt wrath for real people while giving corporate welfare a free ride.

ziggy wrote:

The people at the DHHS or whatever office that was we went to apply for assistance were absolutely nasty.

Yes, I can believe that. I've heard that complaint before.

1) When one asks for public assistance, his/her self-respect and sense of dignity is often at rock bottom. And it shows.

2) People naturally crave power over others. It is easy for DHHS workers to try to put down those who are down on their luck and asking for help. For the DHHS workers, it is just a job, and the applicant is just another "deadbeat" who is not in a position to demand any particular respect.

I contrast that with a local food pantry I visited a few times a couple yeara ago as an observer and sometimes helper. The volunteer workers there seemed to genuinely and sincerely enjoy helping the "clients" who appeared for food handouts. The mutual respect shared between the needy clients and the food pantry workers was touching.

Of the two examples listed above, I cannot help but note one is a government ran entity and the other is a private charity.

Yes, that is why I posted this. I thought it was fitting with Stephanie's remarks about the rudeness of DHHS folks. When it's just a job, and the parties are in "superior-inferior" social posturing, it can be ugly.

I'm trying to think of one government agency where it doesn't apply.

I can't.

Seems like lots of people complain about DMV. But my dealings there have been as good as at any private business. Verizon got to be unbearably difficult to work with. Verizon was in the communications business, but was terrible at communicating with its own customers.

If the majority of people are complaining, there's likely a good reason.

The difference between the two though is that if you don't want to do business with Verizon, you don't have to, at least not anymore.

To bad the same cannot be said for the DMV.