Three dozen fall ill at Obama rally in Md.

But it is not the "people who elected him" that are portraying him a "bitter disappointment" and as the "worst president in decades including Carter". It is the people who never would have voted for him, for reasons, as Stephanie correctly observes, include racism.

It is simple arithmetic. He won two years ago with a large majority and enjoyed hugely positive approval ratings. Where were all the racists then? His performance has been such that his support has eroded. Why would you ascribe that to racism? Was their racism latent when they voted for him and then became active when they realized he was an African-American man? You're saying that Obamacare is unpopular because Americans are racist? What kind of leap in logic does that require?

My point is that a charge of racism is scurrilous and specious. It cannot be proven and it smears whole classes of totally innocent people.

It is the same as Bob Schieffer questioning David Axelrod about the wisdom of accusing the Chamber of Commerce of illegally using foreign contributions in their campaign ads.

Scheiffer: Where is your evidence?
Axelrod: Where is your evidence they have not, Bob?

It becomes incumbent on the accused to prove that they are not what the accuser has said they are. We are guilty until proven innocent. It is easy to make the charge but impossible to disprove it and the accused will always be seen as suspect.

You know it when you see it? Can you be more nebulous than that?

OC, I'm quoting your words on the Gazette website. I hope you don't mind.

It is the same as Bob Schieffer questioning David Axelrod about the wisdom of accusing the Chamber of Commerce of illegally using foreign contributions in their campaign ads.

Scheiffer: Where is your evidence?
Axelrod: Where is your evidence they have not, Bob?

I saw that interview and I am pretty sure steam was coming out of my ears.

I'm with Aaron, OC, GREAT post, thanks!

Praise indeed! Yet, my friend, Ziggy, is not one to argue a fallacy. He, like the rest of us, wants to practice his forensics because he believes this or that or the other. Race is the problem that defines us. Race is the problem that pervades our two hundred year history. Race is the problem we must solve.

My point is that a charge of racism is scurrilous and specious. It cannot be proven and it smears whole classes of totally innocent people. .

Scurrilous and specious? Well, we didn't have to look very far to find a self-admitted one:

(Cato) As far as racism goes, yes, racism entered into his election, both for his election and against it. A pile of blacks voted for him solely because of his skin color. That is just as racist as voting againt him because he's black. That being said, I have no problem stating here and for the record that I voted against Obama for a number of reasons, including his skin color.

Okay. Let's keep score: one to 299 million.

OC,

There is always going to be one or two extremists, or radicals, or ridiculous types, in any crowd, whether legitimately in the crowd or planted there by others. Cato's view, though appreciated for its candor, is most certainly not that of me or any other Republican I know, including the black one who lives in town.

SheikBen wrote:OC,

There is always going to be one or two extremists, or radicals, or ridiculous types, in any crowd, whether legitimately in the crowd or planted there by others. Cato's view, though appreciated for its candor, is most certainly not that of me or any other Republican I know, including the black one who lives in town.

First of all, I am no extremist, Ohio, unless you call desiring my God-given liberties and respecting the US Constitution, extremist. I don't wish to shove my view on another individual, however, I darn well don't want other's views shoved on me. All I want is to live in peace with others, they can do as they choose, but leave me alone to choose my destiny myself. I work hard and it burns me up to see polilticans, both republican and democrat, take upwards of 40% of what I earn and give to folks who refuse to work or to governments that hate our guts. That doesn't make me an extremist, I do believe that makes me a a freedom loving American.

Secondly, I'll bet about anything I have, many of your republican friends feel the way I do about our community organizer president and his ilk, they just are too scared or silly to admit it. If I am a racist because I hate his policies and because I am sick and tired of being blamed for the condition of the black community, so be it, I'm a racist and I'll wear that title proudly.

Thirdly, I have followed many of your posts. Just so you know, you can't offer an olive branch to the left as you attempt to do so often in your posts. You are dealing people who have absolutely no respect for anyone. They are narcissitic. They see any offer of "we can live together" as weakness to be exploited. It is time that you and your republican friends come to the realization that if you want your liberty, you are going to have to grow a spine and stand up for what you want and what you believe.

It has taken me along time to realize this, but in dealing with my leftist associates, I found they did not respect the moral high ground. I found that they didn't respect my individual liberties. I found the many felt, they could exploit my desire not to fight for what I believe to obtain what they desire and force me to accept policy and behavior I found abhorant. It comes to this, if you truly want to be free, then you had better be prepared to stand and fight for it. The founders realized this as has this nation many times in its history. Depending on how this election goes you might just have to fight for your liberty.

Thirdly, I have followed many of your posts. Just so you know, you can't offer an olive branch to the left as you attempt to do so often in your posts.

You cannot have known this but about a year ago Aaron, Stephanie, and I met in Sherman, WV at the home of shermangeneral. His real name was Carroll Jett. I'm sure you know he died. Like many of us he had some ghosts he needed to put to rest. I remember him very fondly. We met his wife, a couple sons, and a grandchild or two. The gentleman we know as Ziggy and his wife (who bears an uncanny resemblance to Carmen Diaz) were also there. I found them all to be the salt of the earth. I was treated like family and we had a fine old time. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I wish we could...

I understand what you're saying but politics doesn't trump being a human being. And I'll bet if you think about it you don't really mean it either. I'll bet you know lots of people whose politics you despise but for whom you have strong affection. Having principles is a fine thing, Bill, but life is too short to deny yourself the company of the people you love. If that makes me spineless, well, then I'll just be a democrat.

It's all about balance. Thanks for your comments. I suspect I agree with you about 98% of the time. I think race is the most intractable and historic of all our problems. But I'll bet you'd agree with Moynihan and others that the government's good intentions in race relations atomized the black family and cost them their fathers, a loss which we all suffer.

ohio county wrote:

I understand what you're saying but politics doesn't trump being a human being. And I'll bet if you think about it you don't really mean it either. ...

I meant every word. This not about politics anymore for me. It is about being free. If it was about politics, then I would stand with one party or the other. I detest both. I fact, I detest politics. I have yet to meet any politican that wasn't either a hypocrite, and egotist, or bold face liar. That includes our libertarian brethern also. When what I work for is extorted, when I watch my kids and their kids futures wreaked, and when the people whose sworn to protect our liberties from enemies foreign and domestic sell this nation to the people they are suppose to protect us from, I feel NO empathy for the polticians or those who put this trash in office.

ohio county wrote: It's all about balance.

Balance is like sitting on the fence. I cannot stand anyone that will not commit, especially in matters as important as protecting our God Given Liberties.

ohio county wrote: Thanks for your comments. I suspect I agree with you about 98% of the time. I think race is the most intractable and historic of all our problems. But I'll bet you'd agree with Moynihan and others that the government's good intentions in race relations atomized the black family and cost them their fathers, a loss which we all suffer.

First Moynihan is a moron. Secondly, the two most racist groups are first, the black community, and secondly, the leftists. Blacks want to play the race card every chance they get. After a while, that doesn't wash anymore. Leftist on the other hand have convienced the black community they can't make it without them. They have convienced blacks they don't stand a chance unless they have the help of the lefties. The leftist demand to be put in office they'll keep the entitlements coming and maybe scrap a bit off for themselves.

I think we should plan an afternoon out. Depending on who all would be interested, save for Mike-I'm not driving to the middle of Ohio-we could find a central location.

I owe the crew Biscuits and Gravy for the Scott Brown win. I'll be up in Cleveland this weekend but that seems a bit much. Maybe a winter breakfast over Christmas break?

I can't wait till this election is over.......

I'd be happy to meet up with any of you any time. I should get together with Aaron & Ziggy more often. They're a couple of wonderful guys and neither of them is far from me at all. We should see when TerryRC is available. Having met them all I really think they'd get on just fine.

I meant every word.

I know you did. I don't mean to tell you what you mean. That's not my job. I'd composed a long response but I'm way too sleepy and wasted to send it.

Nobody owes anybody any biscuits or gravy. There's a Tudor's Biscuit World in Weirton. Sadly, that works only to my advantage. I'd love to sample some of those groceries... I've heard the biscuits are as big as dinner plates.

Weirton would be a nice trip one of these days.

Given my daughter is attending school in nearby Bethany, that's a trip I'm always willing to make. As a matter of fact, we're picking her up this evening. I could use a restaurant recommendation. We really like the Golden Chopsticks, I think that's the name, but I'm ready to try something new.

Pick a sunny day with a high above 60 and I'm willing to do Weirton. A Sunday Stephanie is taking Kate back would work although I would love for some of the others to join us.

OMG she just keeps getting cuter!

She's starting to "dance". It consist of hunching her legs and doing the Night at the Roxbury head bob. It's the most beautiful thing, next to her smiling at me, that I've seen.

She's better watch it or her little finger is going to fall off! lol

Let me ask you something, Zig. I don't mean to extend the life of this thread beyond it's interest to any member but, I'd like to see Barney Frank defeated due to his invisible control and protection of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, a couple government-sponsored entities which I think are largely responsible for the recession. Does that make me homophobic?

The truths out there. Jimmy's a racist homophobic and probably supporst rape in marriage cause he's a pro-life Christian. Don't you know all them right wingers are the same!!!!!!

I'll bet he's a facist as well.

ohio county wrote:Let me ask you something, Zig. I don't mean to extend the life of this thread beyond it's interest to any member but, I'd like to see Barney Frank defeated due to his invisible control and protection of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, a couple government-sponsored entities which I think are largely responsible for the recession. Does that make me homophobic?

No. Why would you even ask? Lots of people would like to see Barney Frank defeated for the reason you indicate.

But now if Keli, for example, were to ask me that same question, I would not be so quick to give the same answer in reply, because Keli has made it a 10 years plus forum cause to make continual references to his notion that Barney Frank is gay- but, as best I recall, has never cited the reasonable political reason you cite. For Keli, being a gay Democrat is a big enough sin to warrant homophobic political assassination.