31,000 Scientists Rejecting Global Warming To be Named

SamCogar wrote:HORSEPUCKY, fuel oil is the same as diesel fuel without the "red dye", so prove to me that diesel fuel has been "increasing significantly for the past 35 years- since about 1973."

And besides, here you have been telling me that electric rates "haven't changed in years".

So which is it Zigster, ........ they haven't or they have?

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The prices of fuel oil, diesel fuel and gasoline have all been increasing at about the same rates for 35 years or so. They are more than ten times what they were in 1972.

But electricity rates have remained mostly about the same over that time period. The folks who sealed up the cracks in their walls and doors and windows and added insulation, or who built more energy efficient housing, can now afford to heat with electricity.

But as long as fuel oil was comparatively cheap, many folks had no incentive to make their homes more energy efficient. But as fuel prices rise, more folks will realize that they can no longer afford to throw their home heating energy away.

Again, follow the money.

I'd like to address a couple of these issues.

First of all, I can't speak very much about the rest of New England. Even RI, it has been a couple of years since I left and things do change over time, but I will tell you what I know.

RI has a program to help low income people insulate their homes etc. The state has been trying for years to address many of the energy efficency problems associated with older construction.

New England is the oldest area of the nation. It is understandable many of the structures aren't going to have windows and furnaces that are state of the art. So what do you propose? Demolition and new construction is far too costly and really not feasible.

You have a lot of people living on fixed incomes living in these older "leady" homes. We can't demand they upgrade those homes. You can't get blood from a stone. These folks are stuck and must rely on assistance to make the kinds of improvements required.

Even with new windows and additional insulation, the cold weather season lasts longer and it does get colder there. It is going to cost more in terms of both energy and dollars to heat a home in Providence than it will in Charleston. Perhaps those folks should hope for a bit of that global warming to kick in before Labor Day.

The further north you go the worse the situation is. Providence & Hartford are balmy in January compared to Concord & Bangor. These people need to stay warm.

I don't believe it is possible for our nation to become energy independent in the next 50 years without tapping our own natural resources. This includes oil and natural gas in ANWR, coal in WV, wind farms off the shore of Nantucket, and drilling off shore. To do anything else is irresponsible to our children and grandchildren, to our parents and our grandparents, to ourselves and our fellow Americans.

One of the driving factors behind the current spike in oil prices is investor speculating. If we open up ANWR and allow more offshore drilling these investors will have less reason to speculate on oil shortages etc.

We can't fix what's wrong overnight. Anything we do is going to take years. We can't snap our fingers to increase oil supplies and we can't force Saudi Arabia or Venezuela to produce more oil. So we need to become more energy efficient and we need to develop alternative energy and we need to tap America's own natural resources responsibly.

We can't do one of these things and not the others. We can't do 2 of these things and not the others. We need to do all 3, we need to get cracking now or the consequences will be horrifying.

If home heating oil prices don't come down by fall, Americans will suffer greatly. J doesn't think people will freeze to death, I don't think large numbers will either. I believe some will. I also am convinced that some people will make choices that will hit us all in the wallet. Like, if Grandma can't afford to keep the heat on, she may wind up in a nursing home. Wait till you get that bill times several thousand.

Very well said Stephanie.

ziggy wrote:
The prices of fuel oil, diesel fuel and gasoline have all been increasing at about the same rates for 35 years or so. They are more than ten times what they were in 1972.

Really??? You sure about that Frank? Seems to me that from 1980 or so up until 98 the price was always somewhere between $1.20 and $1.60 per gallon. In 1998, there was a pretty steep decline (we we're paying $.89/gallon at the brand spanking new pilot) and then right around 2000, it started going up and has been very volitile since 2001.

But you're stating that the price was around $.40/gallon in 1972 and has steadily increased every year since then.

So once again, are you sure about that Frank???

The increase has been gradual, with intermittent spikes both upward and downward. But the overall 35 year trend has been upward- steeply upward.

In 1972 fuel oil and diesel fuel and gasoline were all priced at less than 40 cents a gallon. Today they are more than 10 times that. Any astute observer had to realize that the general price trend has been steeply upward over the past 35 years or so.

In the late 1970s Jimmy Carter told us so- that the energy efficiency status quo was not sustainable. But almost no one wanted to even think about it. We had to learn the hard way. And so we are learning the hard way.

I hardly think an 18 year trend in which the price rarely moved less then 20% either way and was often within 10% from one year to the next can be classified as a "steep increase upward". In fact, it's anything but that. In 1984, gas was $1.55/gal. In 1998, it was $.89/gal. There is nothing steep or gradual about a 40% decline in prices over 14 years. The 'steep' increases coincided with the conversion of oil being purchased on the open market to speculating on an exchange mercantile. That is fact.

So what's your point? That no one had reason to think that costs of oil products were going to be higher and higher in the years to come? Oil product prices nearly doubled in less than a year- from early 1973 to late 1973. Folks called that the "energy crisis" back then. And prices doubled again within about 6 years. And we called that an "energy crisis" again then too.

Whether the current cause of oil price spikes is oil price speculators, or supply not meeting the demand- whatever- the point is that we knew decades ago that push would come to shove sooner or later. And now it is later. And folks are screaming "energy crisis" and that "people will freeze to death because they can't afford fuel oil" yet again.

Again, the leaky buckets either need to be fixed or replaced. And that will be even more difficult ten or 20 or 30 years form now than today- just as it will be more difficult today than it would have been 10 or 20 or 30 years ago.

Same old same old.

and I'm sure you told someone so, didn't you Frank!!!

And for the record, I'm not disagreeing about our energy situtation. I think I'm on record here somewere as saying energy is our number one crisis.

I merely pointed out that you were wrong in regards to gas prices Frank. That's all.

And I do have one question for you. You keep saying Jimmy Carter said...

My question is, why did Jimmy Carter keep yacking his trap and not do something about energy? Seems about all he's done is talk. And hammer a few nails.

Hmmm. Now I see why you admire him so much.

Ziggy,

Have you taken into account what has happend with our currency during this time period? In August of 1971 Richard Nixon abolished the Bretton Woods System with the stroke of a pen. A few months later, Nixon presided over the Smithsonian Agreement.

Ending the practice of having our currency backed by a tangible, valuable commodity certainly had more to do with the spike in the price of oil in 1972 than anything.

Now the Fed is printing currency like it's Monopoly money. Of course oil is going to rise. We're at a dangerous crossroads. Hyperinflation is a distinct possibility unless we do something to regain control over the value of our currency and our staggering debt.

Stephanie wrote:Ziggy,

Have you taken into account what has happend with our currency during this time period? In August of 1971 Richard Nixon abolished the Bretton Woods System with the stroke of a pen. A few months later, Nixon presided over the Smithsonian Agreement.

Ending the practice of having our currency backed by a tangible, valuable commodity certainly had more to do with the spike in the price of oil in 1972 than anything.

Most other consumer goods prices have not increased tenfold the same way oil has over the past 35 years.

Anyone who has not realized that prices for home heating sources other than electricity were headed to "crisis" levels just has not been paying attention. Heck, even firewood is a hundred dollars a pickup load in some places now- and higher than that if you buy it as a "carry out, carry home" bundle at the local grocery store.

Once again your fibbing Frank. It hasn't increased 'tenfold' in 35 years. It only increased 'twofold' in 25 years. Over the last 10 years, it has increased 5 fold.

And in about that same time frame, milk has increased by 33%, eggs by 50%, flour by 75%, corn by 100%, and on and on and on.

Oil is being produced at the same rate it was BEFORE the dramatic increase at 85mbpd. Consumption has has fluctuated somewhat and that is a partial reason for the price per barrel, but as much as 60% (and growing) is solely speculation. Eliminate speculation, go back to buying and selling oil on the open market and gas would be around $2.00/gallon.

This is all easy to find information so why do you continue to tell the same lie?

Stephanie wrote:I'd like to address a couple of these issues.

First of all, I can't speak very much about the rest of New England. Even RI, it has been a couple of years since I left and things do change over time, but I will tell you what I know.

RI has a program to .................... .

Stephanie, that may have been your best ever post.

Most people in WV have no conception of the "yearly temperature differences" between even Pennsylvania and WV, ..... let alone WV and NE or New York.

I remember when I first moved to upstate NY ....... the locals were always telling me ...

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You know, they all intimated that Ron Paul was like your crazy old aunt Velma but U.S. currency was backed by gold or silver or some combination of the two for nearly two hundred years.

I agree it should be linked to something Jimmy. My question is, what do you link it to when right now current US circulation exceeds the global total value of gold fivefold?

And as Sam pointed out, how do you issue new currency to meet the increased population demands when there is only a finite amount of gold?

I'd think before you can start a serious conversation, those two issues have to be addressed.

What happened to the nation's gold? Remember the "gold in Fort Knox"? I've read the Federal Reserve now has it and is "holding it in trust for the American people". I'm an American person. I want an accounting of that gold......an audit.

btw......the Fed is responsible for the amount of money in circulation. Perhaps the Fed can be auctioned off to offset some of the difference. What they have been doing is perpetrating a fraud on the American people.

But you still didn't answer the question Stephanie. The current value of all the gold in the world mined is about $4 Trillion. There is $7.2 Trillion in American currency right now. At best, the US has less then half the gold to cover the current currency.

So who loses $3 to $4 Trillion?

And how do you provide for an ever growing population?

Aaron,

I don't believe printing more money backed by nothing is the answer. I also don't believe only gold can be used to back our currency. Gold, silver, copper, platinum, and other metals can be used for that purpose.

I don't believe the way to provide for a growing population is to print more Monopoly money, I'll tell you that. Part of the answer lies with incorporating more commodites as I indicated above. I think the other part of that equation is we don't just print up more money for more people. Perhaps the currency grows in value rather than depresses.

As to who give up their cash, I think I made myself quite clear when I indicated I'd start with the assests of the Federal Reserve and the personal assests of the owners of the Fed who have been perpetrating this fraud on the American people as well as the rest of the world.

First, I agreed that the monetary system needs to be linked to something. Perhaps it could be linked to other items besides gold. I don't claim to have all the answers, just obvious questoins.

I don’t see how you can arbitrarily increase the price of gold though. If you do that, then you’ve automatically increased the wealth of everyone that currently owns gold and I can see a whole bunch of ethical problems there.

Perhaps we need another worldwide monetary summit to stabilize monetary system as Breton Woods System did. This is something that I think I’ll do some reading on.

I’m curious though, I’ve heard Ron Paul state we should go back to the gold standard. How does he answer the questions I’ve ask?

What Ron Paul proposes isn't an all out return to the gold standard. Instead, he has introduced legislation that would legalize gold and silver as a competing currency.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.4683:

You may want to consider reading his Comprehensive Economic Revitalization Plan.

http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=1035

Aaron wrote:Once again your fibbing Frank. It hasn't increased 'tenfold' in 35 years. It only increased 'twofold' in 25 years. Over the last 10 years, it has increased 5 fold.

And in about that same time frame, milk has increased by 33%, eggs by 50%, flour by 75%, corn by 100%, and on and on and on.

Oil is being produced at the same rate it was BEFORE the dramatic increase at 85mbpd. Consumption has has fluctuated somewhat and that is a partial reason for the price per barrel, but as much as 60% (and growing) is solely speculation. Eliminate speculation, go back to buying and selling oil on the open market and gas would be around $2.00/gallon.

This is all easy to find information so why do you continue to tell the same lie?

Good post, all of which is varifiable by fact. Here is a little more to factor into the equation. The price of the dollar against the Euro is also playing a roll in the present price of a barrel of oil. Right now the dollar is at a near record low against the Euro and we are paying for it.

Aaron wrote:Once again your fibbing Frank. It hasn't increased 'tenfold' in 35 years.

Your numbers are not correct. I was buying gasoline and diesel fuel when you were still in diapers. Gasoline and diesel fuel were about 30 cents a gallon in early 1973. By late 1973- less than a year later- they had doudled in price to near 60 cents a gallon. By 1980 gasoline and diesel fuel were about $1.20 a gallon- a quadrupling in price in only 7 years. And through those 7 years we heard the same kinds of screams we are hearing today of how people will freeze and the economy will tank because of fuel prices. But almost no one actually cared enough to do anyhing about it other than fret and cuss. We laughed at Jimmy Carter's asmonition that the "energy crisis" was the moral equivalent of war. Today those prices are more than $4.00 a gallon. That's a more than 10 fold increase in 35 years.

It only increased 'twofold' in 25 years.

No. It increased four fold in only seven years- from 1973 to 1980.

Over the last 10 years, it has increased 5 fold.

Regardless of the price plateaus, twofold times 5 fold equals 10 fold. 10 fold in 35 years- which is just what I had said.

And in about that same time frame, milk has increased by 33%, eggs by 50%, flour by 75%, corn by 100%, and on and on and on.

What time frame? Thirty five year time frame? That is what we were talking about.

Oil is being produced at the same rate it was BEFORE the dramatic increase at 85mbpd. Consumption has has fluctuated somewhat and that is a partial reason for the price per barrel, but as much as 60% (and growing) is solely speculation. Eliminate speculation, go back to buying and selling oil on the open market and gas would be around $2.00/gallon.

Eliminate speculation? But isn't that part of what free enterprise is about? Betting on the price a commodity will bring in the marketplace? How would we "eliminate speculation"?

And so even if we drilled for and got ALL our oil from domestic sources, what reason is there to think that the price would decrease?

This is all easy to find information so why do you continue to tell the same lie?

I can and do remember back 35 years. So I don't have to either lie, nor "find the information". I was buying gasoline and diesel fuel in 1973. And I was both buying and selling gasoline and diesel fuel in 1980. Can you remember what you were paying for fuels in 1972? I doubt that you can.

And from 1980 to 1998, gasoline was fairly stable, never going above $1.60 per gallon or below $1.00 until it dropped to just below a buck a gallon in 1988. There has been no ‘steady increase in prices over 35 years’ as I have proven time and time again. It’s a fact that everyone can easily verify so why do you feel compelled to continue with your fibs Frank?

The dramatic increases in food within the last ~5 years, which coincides with oil speculation.

Oil was bought and sold on the open market for a hundred years. It wouldn't be hard to end speculation. In fact, it would be fairly easy.

I didn’t buy gas in 72. I did in 75 though, when it was $.50/gallon. In 1984 it was $1.55/gallon. In 1998 it was $.89/gallon. That’s hardly a 35 year steady increase. And there's a reason you don't prove me wrong Frank.

Because you can't!!!!!!!!!!

So you are telling us that that $4.00 a gallon is not ten times 40 cents a gallon, and that from 1973 to 2008 is not 35 years?

Are you telling us that improving the energy efficiency of homes would have been easier 35 years ago than today, and will be easier today than it will be 35 years from now?

If not 30 or 35 years ago, then when should we have done something about energy efficiency and the "energy crisis"? And if not today, then when? 35 years from now?

Oil was bought and sold on the open market for a hundred years. It wouldn't be hard to end speculation. In fact, it would be fairly easy.

Again, just how?