Today's students are encouraged to defy authority

by SamCogar Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:37 am

Tuesday June 10, 2008

Judy Wagoner: Giles' problem is the tip of the iceberg

THE suspension of a student at Capital High School regarding the ambiguity of a dress code policy and flip flops is indicative of troubles within our schools that are far more serious than the choice of footwear.

The student's suspension was not the frivolous consequence of exposed toes.

The circumstances surrounding the suspension clearly define the tone of the student's confrontation with the principal as argumentative.

Principal Clinton Giles was well within his authority to demand respect from the student who repudiated his judgment.

The student flagrantly disregarded his status as administrator of the school when she proceeded to dispute the principal's position on the flip-flop policy.

Not too long ago, several girls at my school decided to ignore the dress code policy and shed all modesty.

Exposing much more than just cleavage, they became indignant when I insisted that they cover up, call home, or wear a school shirt.

Our vice principal casually commented to a group of girls that flip-flops were not permitted and one of the girls began screaming at her.

As she screamed at the vice principal, several students began to clap rhythmically in support of the screamer.

The screaming student was disrespectful, irrational and aggressive.

Student bystanders witnessing the confrontation became agitated and combative.

Within moments, a defiant student had unleashed verbal abuse onto our vice principal, and several of her peers were exhibiting behaviors much like those with a mob mentality.

We are experiencing an alarming increase in the number of students displaying open defiance.

Not only are the students willfully insubordinate, but their parents defy all reason and encourage them to challenge their teachers and school administrators.

Parents are succumbing to the willfulness of their children, and are relinquishing their parental authority.

The children, confident in their abilities to manipulate their parents, anticipate the surrender of adult authority at school.

When these unruly children are reprimanded for a breach of school policy, they argue, become enraged, and throw tantrums or make threats. Their parents make excuses for their bad behavior and often verbally assault or threaten school personnel.

School policies are necessary instruments of control in the school setting to ensure a positive, safe, and productive learning climate.

They must be written explicitly so as to avoid exploitation by students and their disgruntled parents.

Dress codes are especially essential in our present sexually oriented culture.

They prohibit apparel and accessories that are hazardous or indecent. They are designed to limit classroom distractions and reinforce academic proficiency.

I am continually amazed when parents complain about the dress code and blatantly scorn the policy.

With pregnancy rates soaring in high schools, grandparents raising their grandchildren, and sexually active sixth-graders, many mothers continue to defend their scantily clad daughters' promiscuous behaviors.

Clinton Giles is not running scared. Administrators and teachers everywhere should applaud his leadership abilities.

He demands respect from his students, and he should accept nothing less.

Wagoner is a teacher at Hayes Middle School in St. Albans and a free-lance writer.

http://www.dailymail.com/Opinion/Commentary/200806100091 [/color]

by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:24 am

The inmates took over the asylum a long time ago.

by stinkyj Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:36 am

Shouldn't the students be encouraged to test boundaries and question authority? Even by outright defying it, when the need arises?

Or should they be taught to just conform, no matter how silly the rules are?

by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:50 am

How is screaming at a teacher and creating a mob mentality testing boundries?

by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:54 am

Would this be considered testing the boundries or questioning authority???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXGZPQtaDdw

by **Stephanie** Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:08 am

stinkyj wrote:Shouldn't the students be encouraged to test boundaries and question authority? Even by outright defying it, when the need arises?

Or should they be taught to just conform, no matter how silly the rules are?

We have taught our children the importance of civil disobedience. We have also taught them they must expect and accept the consquences of their actions.

by stinkyj Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:11 am

Aaron wrote:Would this be considered testing the boundries or questioning authority???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXGZPQtaDdw

no, of course not. screaming about it is irrational, and very teenager-ish. you don't think i'm promoting that, do you?

i'm saying, there's a no flip-flop rule. it's dumb, and there are much more important things to worry about. a group of kids challenging that rule, in any way they can, from a student council resolution to wearing flip-flips en masse would be acceptable.

but as stephanie mentioned, they must be ready to face the consequences.

and i'm typing this from my sleeper cabin on a train, how about that? Very Happy

by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:44 am

No I don't think you're promoting that Jeremy.

The problem with standing up to authority is, most don't want to face the consequences. Apparently Giles went off once he set down for the interview, complaining about not being respected and stuff of that nature. Part of the problem is in that we've let our kids run the asylum. I truly believe that. There is no discipline anymore so it's no longer challenging authority, which we've all done, or pushing the limits. We knew there were consequences. A lot of kids don't. They don't face them at home or at school and they think they can get by with pretty much whatever that want.

It's a different world we live in and part of the problem is the inability to adapt by some of the administrators and teachers. They think they can play by the same rules that were imposed on them and it doesn't work like that. This Giles wants to be an authoritarian and demand respect and that's not going to happen. Instead of expecting the kids to uniformly adapt to and jump at his every command, he's got to play the system as it's set up and for something like a school clothing violation, all he has to do is enforce the written policy. Give them the option of conforming or send them home. Don't argue, fight or fuss, simply tell them it's like this or bye and let their parents handle the problem.

When the parents start crying, simply pull the policy out, show them how the student was in conformance and move on. Don't argue with them either. Tell them if they have a problem, take it to the school board. Unfortunately, there's no discipline any longer in the school system so just pass the buck along, teach the kids that want to be there and get rid of the rest. Harsh but simple.

by **Stephanie** Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:57 pm

I think we live in a time when challenging "authority" is particularly important. Stupid rules are meant to be broken.

According to news reports, the student who argued over the stupid flip flops wasn't a behavior problem. She was sticking up for herself. As foolish as what she did was, imho the administrator's conduct was even more foolish because I expect adults to choose their battles. This administrator was more interesting in being "right" and being obeyed than in what was best for that individual student and for the student body. This is evident by the decision to suspend a good student for 3 days because she had the unmitigated gall to challenge his authority.

The kid behaved like a twit. The administrator behaved like an older, bigger twit with authority.

by SamCogar Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:19 pm

Stephanie wrote:The kid behaved like a twit. The administrator behaved like an older, bigger twit with authority.

And Steph, therein lies the "heart of the problem".

Most administrators and many teachers ...... have lost all respect of/from the students.

And just like Garrison was removed at WVU ...... so should said school personnel.

The Principal at the BCMS was promoted up from a teaching position ....... and the "word is" among all the students is ........ "all he does is walk around picking up scraps of paper off the floor".

Today's students are encouraged to defy authority 33948

Today's students are encouraged to defy authority 197570

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by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:19 pm

So adminstration should pick and choose which rules to enforce? And what standards are used to do this picking and choosing?

by **Stephanie** Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:38 pm

Aaron,

You're in some type of position of authority where you work, correct?

by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:17 pm

Yes, I have a position of authority or so I've been told.

And I have a nice big book of rules and I enforce them as they're written down across the board because as soon as I cut one guy slack then everyone expects the same slack. And the first time I let a 'stupid' rule go and someone gets hurt, I've just exposed myself personally and the company I work for to who knows what kind of legal recourse.

Same thing with the stupid flip flop rule. Suppose Giles let it go and then one day, a year from now, a student trips coming down the stairs and is seriously hurt or killed. Now suppose it's determined that the cause of the accident was the flip flops. First thing the county lawyers says is "it's the kids fault, he/she had on flip flops which are against county rule 125 (b) of the student code" thus the parents have no legal recourse.

But if the kid had been wearing them for a year and other kids had been wearing them then and it is determined the principal knowingly did not enforce a ‘stupid rule’, he has just opened himself and the county up to a whole case of misery and legal responsibilities all because he didn't enforce a 'stupid' rule.

I stand by what I said.

by **Stephanie** Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:33 pm

Well then you don't seem to have a clear understanding of the situation. The school board repealed the flip flop rule. Apparently, there was confusion as to when the new rule went into effect, even among school board members.

Good administrators and good managers in every industry use discretion. Every situation is different.

This flip flop rule is stupid. It highlights something I consider to be a serious problem in high schools across the nation. Part of the job of high schools is to prepare students for life outside of the arena we call public education. How can we expect students to be prepared for what comes next when we micromanage every aspect of their school experience? The graduation requirements keep increasing, meaning students have less opportunity to select their own courses. They are told when to eat and now what they can eat. They are told when they can go to the bathroom and now what kind of attire they can and cannot wear on every part of their bodies.

This administrator is a twit.

by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:13 pm

It doesn't matter if it was repealed by the county or not. It's in the Capital High School student hand book...

1 Student Handbook
2007-2008
Capital High School
1500 Greenbrier Street
Charleston, WV 25311
(304) 348-6500
FAX: (304) 348-6509
www.capitalhigh.org
Clinton Giles, Principal
Bill McCoy, Assistant Principal
Dr. Kate Porter, Curriculum Assistant Principal
John Hawley, Assistant Principal
This School Agenda belongs to
Name_____________________________________________________Address___________________________________________________
City/State__________________________________Zip________
Student #________________________________________HR_______
Faculty Adviser______________________________________________
This Agenda has been created especially for students of Capital High School. At the beginning of the school year, each student receives an Agenda book and ID card for a fee of $5.00, for the purpose of teaching organization; improving academic performance; and promoting student-teacher-parent communication.

And it clearly states on page 22 in section 36.05 why students can't wear flip flops.

36.05 Accessories:
All students must wear shoes. Flip flops are considered unsafe and, therefore, are not allowed. Flip flops are defined as any flat soled shoe with a toe bar and strap connected to that bar.

It also states again in the guidelines.

Guidelines for Appropriate Dress at Capital High School
Students should select wearing apparel and attempt to affect an appearance suitable for the environment of Capital High School with the following tenets in mind.

12. All students must wear footwear at all times, bedroom slippers and thongs (flip flops) are prohibited.

The principal was well within his right as the disciplinary policy calls for detention, ISS or parents pending (suspension) for minor disciplinary violations, which a dress code violation is.

You can read it all right here if you like.

And you're right. Good managers use discretion. In this instance, the administrator might have used his discretion by giving the student detention or ISS instead of suspending the student.

What they don't do though is try and pick out which part of their written policies are stupid and shouldn't be followed though. Written polices are there for a reason and not following them isn't part of being a good administrator or a good manager. It's what makes them bad administrators and managers and get's them fired.

by **Stephanie** Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:40 pm

Aaron wrote:And you're right. Good managers use discretion. In this instance, the administrator might have used his discretion by giving the student detention or ISS instead of suspending the student.

What they don't do though is try and pick out which part of their written policies are stupid and shouldn't be followed though. Written polices are there for a reason and not following them isn't part of being a good administrator or a good manager. It's what makes them bad administrators and managers and get's them fired.

Sometimes you are down right hilarious. That was a good one.

So, what your trying to tell me is that if it had been some super jock on whatever team in the playoffs, that girl would have been punished? I don't think so.

You and I and everyone else here know that high school principals regularly dole out different punishments to different students and that some violations are overlooked for some students. If you don't know that, you're not nearly as bright as I've been giving you credit for.

Also, it most certainly does matter if the school board changed the policy. They set the policy, not the principal and they are free to change the policy at any time during the year and make it effective immediately.

I really like saying this: That principal is a twit.

by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:26 pm

Yes, I know principals dole out different punishments to different students, but that doesn't make it right. I'm a little surprised that your are using that as an argument for not following clearly published rules?

I'm also surprised that you believe that 1) school administrators should be allowed to decide which rules to follow and 2) just because one kid get's by with violating a rule, every kid should.

As for rules and regulations, I would think you should know how this works. A school can have a specific rule and enforce it so long as it doesn't override a county and/or state policy. For instance, the state may say it's ok to wear flip flops. The county may say it's ok to wear flip flops. But a school may have a specific hazard that makes flip flops unsafe at that school so they can ban flip flops. What they can't do is allow flip flops if either the county or state bans them.

Regardless of what the county policy is or was, Capital High School has in place a policy that specifically states in 2 different locations that flip flops are a no no, hence, flip flops are a no no. Period.

And you can say this principal is a twit. You can also say that he only picked on this girl because she's a nobody. You may be right on the first but not on the second. This 'twit' suspended and then disqualified a starter for the basketball team a few years back for attendance reasons. He's disciplined football players, keeping them out of games and a few years back he tried to fire the basketball coach because he felt the coach let players get by with too m any no no's. The only thing that saved the coach was the school board, who wouldn't allow the 'twit' to fire the coach. Think what you want but this 'twit' is fair.

by **Stephanie** Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:58 pm

Now you're twisting my words.

I believe administrators should use their heads for more than a hat rack. This includes, but is not limited to, not interrupting the education of a student over her choice of footwear and her decision to defend herself.

Secondly, I'm not well versed in the structure of the Kanawha County School District. I can tell you in the district where I served a principal could NOT create an specialized dress code for the school they are assigned to. That was a school committee decision. I concede it is possible that it is different in Kanawha County, but I seriously doubt it.

I never said that because Johnny Bench gets away with something that Brian the Brain should too. What I said was that administrators routinely decide to let some students get away with behaviors they would punish another student for.

This principal is a twit. He made a decision to bully this girl, and make no mistake about it, that's what he did. She didn't cower at his almighty authority and he wanted his pound of flesh.

If you think the principal in this story did the "right thing" by suspending this girl for 3 days, you may be a twit too!

I noticed you completely ignored my assertion that public schools are doing a disservice to the teens they are supposed to be preparing for the future by micromanaging every detail of their school experience.

by ziggy Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:01 pm

Why should we expect anyone to accept any rules about anything? The standard of conduct in any society is the example the leaders- at all levels- set.

We do not enforce weight lkimits on coal and timber trucks. And when drivers of those trucks caravan bumper to bumper for blocks around the state capital building, we raise those weight limits- and don't enforce those either. School students are not oblivious to these kinds of reality. So why should they comply with any "handbook"?

We do not enforce environmental laws and rules.

Corrupt politicians allow all manner of outlaws to flaunt the laws with impunity.

We divy out bogus university BA degrees to the governor's daughter- and maybe to a bunch of other students.

Presidents lie about going to war and we wave the flag in support thereof. The message to young people is that mendacities are an acceptable alternative to truth and veracity.

An atmosphere of general social lawlessness and devil-may-care attitudes about corporate responsibilities and government responsibilities will inevitably lead to similar devil-may-care attitudes about personal responsibilities on the part of students and citizens in general.

Why should this generation of students and their parents be expected to follow the rules in the school "handbook" when the "handbook" of the larger society is flaunted was impunity by "leaders" at the highest levels?

by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:20 pm

Principals don't have the authority to randomly make or break rules. But the can submit specific rules to the county and get them approved. I have no idea if this is a school specific rule or if it's a county rule. All I know is that it's in the book. TWICE. Flip Flops=NO NO. I can show you again if you like.

Whether he bullied this girl, I don't know. I don't know what all went on. I can't find a copy of the article. I read the op-ed from another principal, but that doesn't detail what happened at Capital. I'm not surprised though that you automatically blame the administration.

As for micro managing, I don't see that in enforcing the dress code but that's just me. There are instances where it does occur but it's tough to generalize the topic. Did you have something specific in mind?

For me, one thing I believe that needs changed is how schools deal with 18 year olds. Legally, they're adults but the school system wants to treat them like kids. I didn't allow it with either of mine and our VP, who came from Buffalo btw, doesn't like me very well for it. I don't care though.

by **Stephanie** Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:39 pm

Aaron,

That flip flop policy was a damn DISTRICT policy. It wasn't a Capitol HS policy. The school board changed the damn thing. That wasn't the principal's call.

The dispute was over when it went into effect. The student and her mother read a news article stating the policy had been changed at the most recent board meeting. So the kid wore flip flops to school. The principal told her she couldn't wear them and she informed him the policy had been changed. He said it had not, she told him it was in the paper. He said he didn't care so she told him to call her mother and discuss it with her mother. So he suspended her.

The fact was the school board had indeed changed the policy. However, they didn't include an effective date so although some board members thought it was immediate, the Superintendent decided that meant it would go into effect at the beginning of the next school year.

That is the dispute. The principal didn't like that the girl told him to call her mother and discuss it with her mother. He is a twit.

I'll see if I can find the article for you myself. They had a picture of the kids feet in the flip flops, complete with painted toe nails.

I'm blaming the administrator because he handled the situation badly. He's supposed to be the adult. He should act like one.

by **Stephanie** Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:43 pm

http://www.dailymail.com/News/Kanawha/200806040186

Not the original I read, but it explains in a nutshell what happened. Still looking....

by **Stephanie** Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:45 pm

http://www.dailymail.com/News/200805300101

There ya go.

by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:47 pm

If it's as you say it is, blame the county first. If they made a change, they should have communicated it to the schools.

As for the girl, If she calmly said, call my mom and he suspended her, then yes, he's a twit. I suspect it wasn't quite that simple.

I have a feeling the truth is somewhere between her side and his side.

by Aaron Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:54 pm

You blame the adminstrator but you have no idea what all was said or what tone it was said in. I still don't think it's as simple as 'stupid adminstrator suspends kid over flip flops.' I think my first reaction would be to give the benefit of the doubt to the principal.

It would be interesting to know if he did make the announcement and if the girl was presnt that day. It the answer to both is yes, she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

As I said, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

What I won't be though is suprised if this girl sues the school and the county.

So exactly HOW much is a principal supposed to put up with and is there a limit?

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