Twins separated at birth?

by **ohio county** Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:06 am

This is a little curious. I was looking at your previous link regarding liberal racial bias at American Thinker. It appears to be a neoconservative site which cannot be dismissed out-of-hand. This is what they say about Ron Paul:

Ron Paul is not a nut. He is honorable and intelligent. I have talked with Congressman Paul about politics and policies. He is consistent and principled. Much of what he says is true. The Constitution is routinely ignored by politicians of both political parties. Government spending, particularly entitlements, is wildly out of control. The crucial constitutional concepts of federalism and limited government are tacitly denied and this denial is the crux of many of our social and political problems.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/ron_paul_and_the_lodestar_of_l.html

And I agree - Ron Paul is not a nut. He is, sadly, a nut magnet.

by Keli Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:56 am

ohio county wrote:This is a little curious. I was looking at your previous link regarding liberal racial bias at American Thinker. It appears to be a neoconservative site which cannot be dismissed out-of-hand. This is what they say about Ron Paul:

Ron Paul is not a nut. He is honorable and intelligent. I have talked with Congressman Paul about politics and policies. He is consistent and principled. Much of what he says is true. The Constitution is routinely ignored by politicians of both political parties. Government spending, particularly entitlements, is wildly out of control. The crucial constitutional concepts of federalism and limited government are tacitly denied and this denial is the crux of many of our social and political problems.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/ron_paul_and_the_lodestar_of_l.html

And I agree - Ron Paul is not a nut. He is, sadly, a nut magnet.

Ron Paul is, unfortunately, my token Republican to condemn--proving my fair and balanced political viewpoint.

by TerryRC Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:12 am

Ron Paul is, unfortunately, my token Republican to condemn--proving my fair and balanced political viewpoint.

Why not pick Rudy? He is pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. I figure you gotta hate him.

by **Stephanie** Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:54 am

TerryRC wrote:Ron Paul is, unfortunately, my token Republican to condemn--proving my fair and balanced political viewpoint.

Why not pick Rudy? He is pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. I figure you gotta hate him.

I'd like to tell you my theory.

Keli does loathe Rudy. He condemns Ron Paul because Dr. Paul shares Keli's aversion to such things as abortion and prostitution but wouldn't try to institute a federal ban on such activities. Keli can't conceive the why of it.

Giuliani, on the other hand, doesn't think of abortion as "evil" or a "sin". I believe in Keli's mind, that makes Giuliani less responsible than Paul. Dr. Paul is placing the US Constitution in the place of supremacy it deserves and was intended to hold by our founders. Dr. Paul holds certain values that Keli shares, but unlike Keli he isn't willing to try to force them on the American people, favoring personal liberty above all else.

I think in Keli's mind, Ron Paul sees the "evil" and just refused to do anything about it. Rudy Giuliani doesn't see the "evil" and so his refusal to take action just isn't quite as grave a "sin".

I'm not sure if I've explained that adequately, but I do believe it to be correct.

by **ohio county** Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:55 am

Why not McCain? He's voted against two tax cuts, telegraphed his opposition to the elimination of the death tax, teamed with Russ Feingold to assault political free speech, and teamed with Ted Kennedy to offer amnesty to illegal aliens.

by ziggy Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:04 am

Stephanie wrote:
TerryRC wrote:Ron Paul is, unfortunately, my token Republican to condemn--proving my fair and balanced political viewpoint.

Why not pick Rudy? He is pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. I figure you gotta hate him.

I'd like to tell you my theory.

Keli does loathe Rudy. He condemns Ron Paul because Dr. Paul shares Keli's aversion to such things as abortion and prostitution but wouldn't try to institute a federal ban on such activities. Keli can't conceive the why of it.

Giuliani, on the other hand, doesn't think of abortion as "evil" or a "sin". I believe in Keli's mind, that makes Giuliani less responsible than Paul. Dr. Paul is placing the US Constitution in the place of supremacy it deserves and was intended to hold by our founders. Dr. Paul holds certain values that Keli shares, but unlike Keli he isn't willing to try to force them on the American people, favoring personal liberty above all else.

In other words, Ron Paul is not enough of a moral authoritarian to suit Keli's fancy.

by **Stephanie** Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:09 am

ziggy wrote:
Stephanie wrote:
TerryRC wrote:Ron Paul is, unfortunately, my token Republican to condemn--proving my fair and balanced political viewpoint.

Why not pick Rudy? He is pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. I figure you gotta hate him.

I'd like to tell you my theory.

Keli does loathe Rudy. He condemns Ron Paul because Dr. Paul shares Keli's aversion to such things as abortion and prostitution but wouldn't try to institute a federal ban on such activities. Keli can't conceive the why of it.

Giuliani, on the other hand, doesn't think of abortion as "evil" or a "sin". I believe in Keli's mind, that makes Giuliani less responsible than Paul. Dr. Paul is placing the US Constitution in the place of supremacy it deserves and was intended to hold by our founders. Dr. Paul holds certain values that Keli shares, but unlike Keli he isn't willing to try to force them on the American people, favoring personal liberty above all else.

In other words, Ron Paul is not enough of a moral authoritarian to suit Keli's fancy.

OK that sort of peeves me. You made quite clear in a few brief words what I struggled to get across using many sentences.

Yes, that's it exactly.

by **ohio county** Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:55 am

I cannot say I agree. On the one hand, what do you expect from a Baptist minister educated at Bob Jones University and one who served two tours of duty in Vietnam? He's going to have a strong expectation of moral behavior. On the other hand, I don't recall his proselytizing here. Because you were proselytized in second grade, Kelli is a moral authoritarian? His appearance on the religion thread here has not materialized. He has kept himself to the political threads. You may not agree with his strongly-held views. By what moral authority do you write them off? How does his condemnation of Ron Paul here on the political threads make him a moral authoritarian?

by Keli Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:58 am

ohio county wrote:I cannot say I agree. On the one hand, what do you expect from a Baptist minister educated at Bob Jones University and one who served two tours of duty in Vietnam? He's going to have a strong expectation of moral behavior. On the other hand, I don't recall his proselytizing here. Because you were proselytized in second grade, Kelli is a moral authoritarian? His appearance on the religion thread here has not materialized. He has kept himself to the political threads. You may not agree with his strongly-held views. By what moral authority do you write them off? How does his condemnation of Ron Paul here on the political threads make him a moral authoritarian?

Amen.

by TerryRC Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:59 am

I think Zig refers to Keli as a moral authoritarian, not because he is proselytizing here, but rather because he has, many times, come down on the side of certain religious beliefs being made into law because a significant percentage of the population desires it.

I don't think that makes Keli a "moral authoritarian", I just think it makes him short-sighted.

by Aaron Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:07 am

I think Keli's a partisan hack in the mode of others here and on the old forum (he actually reminds me a lot of One Citizen) who uses religion for his political agenda, not the other way around. But that's just me.

by Keli Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:09 am

TerryRC wrote:I think Zig refers to Keli as a moral authoritarian, not because he is proselytizing here, but rather because he has, many times, come down on the side of certain religious beliefs being made into law because a significant percentage of the population desires it.

I don't think that makes Keli a "moral authoritarian", I just think it makes him short-sighted.

I bet Ron Paul wouldn't call me names. Nothing upsets him. O, that Pope Ron Paul's disciples would be more like him!

by TerryRC Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:12 am

I think Keli's a partisan hack in the mode of others here and on the old forum (he actually reminds me a lot of One Citizen) who uses religion to promote his politics, not the other way around but that's just me.

Damn, it pains me to say this...

I think Keli does really believe he is doing the right thing, both by his god and his fellow man.

I don't care for his tactics, his message or his mission - but I think he is motivated by good intentions.

... hmmm, that didn't hurt as bad as I thought it would.

by TerryRC Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:15 am

I bet Ron Paul wouldn't call me names. Nothing upsets him. O, that Pope Ron Paul's disciples would be more like him!

First, I think Paul is a loon.

Second, stating MY OPINION that you are short-sighted, particularly when one looks at the history of religion getting into bed with government, is not calling you names.

by **Stephanie** Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:21 am

I agree that Keli doesnt proselytize here, but that doesn't make what I say untrue.

I think Keli is like me in that he sees most things as black or white. People like me have difficulty seeing the shades of gray. What distinguishes us is that I attempt to see the middle. I may not agree with it, but I do attempt to find it. Keli strikes me as one of those "My way or the highway" type of people.

He doesn't preach here and he didn't in the Gazz site either, this is true. But he regularly blasts those that disagree with him. He isn't a person who makes personal attacks against other forum members which is what One Citizen did. If Keli were like 1C he wouldn't be satisfied with just slamming Ron Paul, he'd have to slam me. Being a devout Christian, he might call me "godless" or some other such foolishness.

I'm not saying Keli is a bad guy. I think he's very witty, and very committed to his principles and his values. I have no doubt he is very dedicated to the members of his church and his family. I do think he is a much more subtle moral authoritarian than many.

In any event, Keli didn't answer the original question.

Why don't you attack Rudy & McCain with the kind vigor you reserve for Congressman Paul? How close to correct am I in my thinking?

by **Stephanie** Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:26 am

TerryRC wrote:I bet Ron Paul wouldn't call me names. Nothing upsets him. O, that Pope Ron Paul's disciples would be more like him!

First, I think Paul is a loon.

Second, stating MY OPINION that you are short-sighted, particularly when one looks at the history of religion getting into bed with government, is not calling you names.

My husband is always warning be not to ask questions I don't want to know the answers to but........

Just why is it you think Ron Paul is a loon?

Secondly, Ziggy called Keli a "moral authoritarian" and I agreed with him.

Finally, I do wish that Ron Paul's disciples would be more like him, including myself. It is something I aspire to. By the same token, I wish Christ's disciples were more like him too. Smile

by Keli Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:31 am

Stephanie wrote:Why don't you attack Rudy & McCain with the kind vigor you reserve for Congressman Paul? How close to correct am I in my thinking?

Ron Paul is my token Libertarian. Giulliani and McCain--token Italian and Irish. I am just trying to be PC by not attacking them. Also, do you think that their candidacies are really worth the bandwith?

by **ohio county** Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:35 am

Finally, I do wish that Ron Paul's disciples would be more like him, including myself. It is something I aspire to. By the same token, I wish Christ's disciples were more like him too.

Ow, good point.

by Keli Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:55 am

ohio county wrote:
Finally, I do wish that Ron Paul's disciples would be more like him, including myself. It is something I aspire to. By the same token, I wish Christ's disciples were more like him too.

Ow, good point.

Ouch.

by TerryRC Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:19 pm

Just why is it you think Ron Paul is a loon?

Because some of the things he advocates doing away with are unrealistic. We need the FDA and the EPA. They don't do the best job of protecting the consumer and the citizen, but they are what we have.

Paul's opinion is that capitalism will solve things like the dumping of toxic materials and drugs that are unsafe through consumers speaking with their checkbooks.

I submit that this is unrealistic for a couple of reasons:

1) The companies will go as far as they can to protect their profit margin.

2) The average consumer doesn't give a rat's ass about someone getting harmed by corporate practices so long as they are not the ones being hurt.

by ziggy Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:22 pm

ohio county wrote:I cannot say I agree. On the one hand, what do you expect from a Baptist minister educated at Bob Jones University .............

In that context, I expect just about what we see of Keli here and on other forums/ message boards..

and one who served two tours of duty in Vietnam?

My wife's brother served two tours of duty in Vietnam. And he ain't nothin' like Keli .......................... . My wife's brother is an outright social asshole. But he is willing to allow others to be as much of or as little as much of an asshole as he/she cares to be. Keli, on the other hand, would require us all to be as perfect example of some particular moral discipline as he, Keli, is. That simply defies the reality of the basically anarchistic animal world, of which mankind is a part- but about which Keli and his Bob Jones U. educated allies, in some philosophy of universal morality, would have us be in perpetual denial.

He's going to have a strong expectation of moral behavior.

But only by HIS definition of what's moral for everyone. And that's where Keli and I part ways. Keli and other Bob Jones U. educated Baptist ministers allow for no moral relativism- for no individual responsibility to determine one's own moral beliefs. To them, morality is defined in their holy scriptures and by their clergy. For them all morality is relative only to the authoritarian whims of whatever "man of God" interprets their scriptures. The concept that we are all equally children of God- whatver God be- is foreign to their professions of special, God-given authoritarianism by ones over others.

On the other hand, I don't recall his proselytizing here. Because you were proselytized in second grade, Kelli is a moral authoritarian? His appearance on the religion thread here has not materialized. He has kept himself to the political threads.

And in reading his political posts, that indicates to me that, for Keli, moral values and sprrituality are not negotiable, not personal, and are to be both promulgated and enforced from on high. He does not care to discuss the supernatural theological underpinnings of his universal moral values that he declares to have come from his God- the many other human invented Gods notwithstanding.

You may not agree with his strongly-held views. By what moral authority do you write them off?

I write them off- but only for myself- because of my own moral authority- allowed to me by Nature's God- not by some phantom supernaturality- to determine my own right and wrong, my own morality. Keli, on the other hand, seeks to have his moral convictions enforced on EVERYONE through the power and authority of government- through the mandates of political office holders. And so for him it is all about how to manipulate the politics of government to achieve the universal morality that he and his theological, and historically political, allies have contrived- but not at all about allowing for our individual determinations of what works for us in our natural social environments.

How does his condemnation of Ron Paul here on the political threads make him a moral authoritarian?

Because, taken in the context of his posts on this and other forums I've posted on with him over the past ten years or so, his preference is always for officers holders who give either evert or at least tacit support to some absolute morality or other, and who pledge to use the government more to the likings of social conservatives who advocate some universal morality and less to the likings of social liberals who view morality as a personal, individual responsibility of citizenship.

Keli and his fellow Bob Jones U. Baptist ministers brook no immorality other than their own. Ron Paul, on the other hand, would allow us to be as moral or as ammoral, or even immoral (all being relative terms) as we choose to be- consistent with us allowing others equal shots at their chosen moralities.

Btw Jimmy, some years ago I determined to not criticize Keli directly about his Bob Jones U. education. I believe that what is more important than where he was educated is what he actually believes as relates to our social interactions with one another- and about what kinds of social contrivances we invent to require of others what we imagine to be in the best interest of our own philosophies. And so I respond in regard to Bob Jones U. students only in the context of you having brought it up.

To sum it up then, I am basically a social anarchist- demanding to be allowed personal choices and responsibility for our personal moralities; and Keli is a social authoritarian- demanding universal obedience to only his God and the moral values contrived as convenient to furthering his and his allies' theological philosophy. This is an over-simplication of our respective social philosophies. But I believe that it is a fair summary of some of it.

And ne'r the twain shall meet .........................

by **ohio county** Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:45 pm

We need the FDA and the EPA.

I thought you were more of a textbook, doctrinaire libertarian.

And ne'r the twain shall meet .........................

Candid and thoughtful and civil. I thought that was a pretty good post.

by TerryRC Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:51 pm

I thought you were more of a textbook, doctrinaire libertarian.

When it comes to civil liberties.

When it comes to big business, I am bothered that a corporation has the rights of a citizen with little of the responsibility.

by **Stephanie** Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:05 pm

TerryRC wrote:Just why is it you think Ron Paul is a loon?

Because some of the things he advocates doing away with are unrealistic. We need the FDA and the EPA. They don't do the best job of protecting the consumer and the citizen, but they are what we have.

Paul's opinion is that capitalism will solve things like the dumping of toxic materials and drugs that are unsafe through consumers speaking with their checkbooks.

I submit that this is unrealistic for a couple of reasons:

1) The companies will go as far as they can to protect their profit margin.

2) The average consumer doesn't give a rat's ass about someone getting harmed by corporate practices so long as they are not the ones being hurt.

I don't see either agency as very beneficial. I also believe the states could do a much better job of protecting consumers without federal intervention.

In addition, when it comes to some agencies (the FDA is an example of this) I don't find just incompetence, but malfeasance to boot. The lesser of two evils is still evil so imho it's time to try something new.

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