on a former Massey Energy surface mine
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TerryRC
SamCogar
6 posters
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on a former Massey Energy surface mine
Monday September 22, 2008
State gives $1 million loan for Mingo racetrack project
WILLIAMSON, W.Va. -- The West Virginia Development Office is providing a $1 million loan to Mingo County to help pay for construction of a dirt racetrack.
The Twin Branch Motorsports Complex will be located near the Logan County line off U.S. 119 on a former Massey Energy surface mine.
The federal Economic Development Administration awarded a $1.2 million grant for the project in 2005. Funding from the loan and grant will be used to pay for water and sewage systems and other infrastructure at the site.
The entire project could cost $7 million to $8 million.
Bids for the infrastructure work are scheduled to be opened Oct. 1 at the Mingo County
http://www.dailymail.com/News/statenews/200809220345
SamCogar- Number of posts : 6238
Location : Burnsville, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
Well, that is about 1% of the land that has been or will be "recontoured".
I wonder how many dirt racetracks the state can use?
I wonder how many dirt racetracks the state can use?
TerryRC- Number of posts : 2762
Registration date : 2008-01-05
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
This issue of mountain top removal strip mining is one where both Parties in WV have adopted a position clearly contrary to the will of the people.
A clear majority of West Virginians are opposed to this abomination.
These politicians look at the Governor's election in 1972 when Rocky got beat by Arch and think it was a referundum on strip mining.
I dont think so.
(I recommend a book, "Ken Hechler-Maverick Public Servant".)
The powers that be tried to re-district Hechler out of his Congressional seat and threw him in to a district where they were sure strip mining was popular but the people spoke out clearly against strip mining and elected Hechler.
In the southern wv coalfields.
The reason rocky lost to Arch was not strip mining.
He was still looked upon as a carpetbagger and Arch was popular and a good politician and he worked better with the political bosses. imo.
But sadly neither one of the major parties will respond to the will of the people on this issue.
Although the Dems did come close in their convention this year.
I expect the Mountain Party is opposed, but zig could ans. that better.
And I think they still are on the ballot.
A clear majority of West Virginians are opposed to this abomination.
These politicians look at the Governor's election in 1972 when Rocky got beat by Arch and think it was a referundum on strip mining.
I dont think so.
(I recommend a book, "Ken Hechler-Maverick Public Servant".)
The powers that be tried to re-district Hechler out of his Congressional seat and threw him in to a district where they were sure strip mining was popular but the people spoke out clearly against strip mining and elected Hechler.
In the southern wv coalfields.
The reason rocky lost to Arch was not strip mining.
He was still looked upon as a carpetbagger and Arch was popular and a good politician and he worked better with the political bosses. imo.
But sadly neither one of the major parties will respond to the will of the people on this issue.
Although the Dems did come close in their convention this year.
I expect the Mountain Party is opposed, but zig could ans. that better.
And I think they still are on the ballot.
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
S, I looked for proof that WV'ians actually oppose MTR but all I could find was a poll backed by the OVEC. I don't suppose you have anything a little less partisan, do you?
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
Yes I saw a scientific poll just the other day in the Gazette.
It was 56% opposed and maybe 30% for.
And those who had strong opinions were also 2-1 against.
It was done by Celinda Lake I think... will try to find
edit: ok I think it was Sept. 8
It was an article that referred to the poll, not the poll itself.
It also mentioned that both Obama and McCain are opposed, I think.
I cant get to it since I am not a "member". hope this helps.
It was 56% opposed and maybe 30% for.
And those who had strong opinions were also 2-1 against.
It was done by Celinda Lake I think... will try to find
edit: ok I think it was Sept. 8
It was an article that referred to the poll, not the poll itself.
It also mentioned that both Obama and McCain are opposed, I think.
I cant get to it since I am not a "member". hope this helps.
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
Likely voters, by a nearly 2 to 1 margin, oppose mountaintop removal mining (56 percent compared to just 29 percent). Fifteen percent of voters are undecided.
Opponents of mountaintop removal also have an even bigger edge in terms of intensity: 39 percent strongly oppose the practice versus just 12 percent who strongly favor it – a 3 to 1 margin. Opposition to mountaintop removal (MTR) is broad and deep, traversing all demographics groups and every region of the state.
http://www.appalachian-center.org/poll_results/wv_mtr_poll_summary.pdf
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
I expect the Mountain Party is opposed, but zig could ans. that better.
And I think they still are on the ballot.
Yes, the Mountain Party is on the ballot with candidates for both governor and president.
The Mountain Party seeks:
1. Protection of our air, water and land by promoting policies which are directed toward sustainable energy, agriculture and environmentally sound economic development; a halt to mountaintop removal coal mining in order to preserve precious forest lands and streams;
http://www.mtparty.org/platform/platform.html
1. New Energy Options (road map to a prosperous tomorrow)
a. New Coal Economy
Redefining how we remove and use coal
b. Sustainable Energy Alternatives
Wind, hydro, bio- mass, geothermal
c. Abolish Mountain Top Removal
In favor of returning to deep mining putting
six times the number of miners to work in
safety, immediately.
http://s210934911.onlinehome.us/wvgov/articals/Jesse%20Johnson%20Platform.pdf
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
Both of you are referencing a poll backed by the Ohio Valley Environmental Conference.
How much stock would either of you put in a poll backed by Massey?
I'm not saying WV'ians are for or against MTR. I'm saying the questions by that poll are skewed to get the results the OVEC wanted to get just as a poll backed by coal would show WV'ians favor MTR.
It's all in how the questions are ask. For instance, if the poll taker ask the following question...
"Even if it meant the loss of thousands of West Virgina jobs, do you favor the abolishment of MTR?"
...I'm pretty sure WV'ians would say no.
So once again, do either of you have anything a little less partisan and up to date (this poll was taken in 2004).
How much stock would either of you put in a poll backed by Massey?
I'm not saying WV'ians are for or against MTR. I'm saying the questions by that poll are skewed to get the results the OVEC wanted to get just as a poll backed by coal would show WV'ians favor MTR.
It's all in how the questions are ask. For instance, if the poll taker ask the following question...
"Even if it meant the loss of thousands of West Virgina jobs, do you favor the abolishment of MTR?"
...I'm pretty sure WV'ians would say no.
So once again, do either of you have anything a little less partisan and up to date (this poll was taken in 2004).
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
Polling is expensive. I think I recall that this poll cost ACEE about
$5,000.
By the way, OVEC did not commission nor did it pay for this poll. But it did post the results on its web page.
What kind of a poll would you consider "less partisan"?
If the WV Coal Association did a poll and came up with the same results, and OVEC put the results on its web page, would it still be an OVEC supported poll? Or are you guaranteeing us that a poll commissioned by the WV Coal association would show WVians supporting MTR? Why has the WV Coal Association not publicized such a poll?
$5,000.
By the way, OVEC did not commission nor did it pay for this poll. But it did post the results on its web page.
What kind of a poll would you consider "less partisan"?
If the WV Coal Association did a poll and came up with the same results, and OVEC put the results on its web page, would it still be an OVEC supported poll? Or are you guaranteeing us that a poll commissioned by the WV Coal association would show WVians supporting MTR? Why has the WV Coal Association not publicized such a poll?
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
The raw questions and answers for the Lake-Snell-Perry poll are here:
http://www.appalachian-center.org/poll_results/wv_mtr_poll.pdf
How might they have been asked in a less "partisan" manner?
http://www.appalachian-center.org/poll_results/wv_mtr_poll.pdf
How might they have been asked in a less "partisan" manner?
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
OK Aaron my bad.
I thought I remembered it was done by Celinda Lake.
I do not know the exact wording of the questions.
But independently of the poll it is my considered opinion that a majority are opposed...
I thought I remembered it was done by Celinda Lake.
I do not know the exact wording of the questions.
But independently of the poll it is my considered opinion that a majority are opposed...
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
oops my bad again.
Before I could acknowledge I didnt know what I was talking about zig proved me 100% right.
What can I say aaron?
Before I could acknowledge I didnt know what I was talking about zig proved me 100% right.
What can I say aaron?
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
You can start by telliing me how Frank proved you right considering the 4 year old poll was tilted towards the abolishment of MRT.
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
TerryRC wrote:Well, that is about 1% of the land that has been or will be "recontoured".
I wonder how many dirt racetracks the state can use?
Why in hell would you be wondering about that.
GEEZEE, you wouldn't pay a dime to see an ant rape an elephant ..... let alone pay to see stock racing on a dirt track.
SamCogar- Number of posts : 6238
Location : Burnsville, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
ziggy wrote:
How might they have been asked in a less "partisan" manner?
I read the questions Frank. I expect nothing less from you. Anyone with even the slightest bit of sense can see which direction these questions lean.
Since I don't duck questions, I'll answer yours. For starters, they could have started by leaving out statements like "As you may know, the Bush adminstration has changed the rules..."
That would have been a tad less partisan, don't you think!!!!!!!!!!
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
Well first off he confirmed my memory that it was a Lake poll not an OVEC poll.
And second he confirmed my memory of the poll numbers.
Except I actually understated the level of opposition slightly.
And second he confirmed my memory of the poll numbers.
Except I actually understated the level of opposition slightly.
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
Since I don't duck questions, I'll answer yours. For starters, they could have started by leaving out statements like "As you may know, the Bush adminstration has changed the rules..."
That would have been a tad less partisan, don't you think!!!!!!!!!!
And less accurate, too.
ziggy- Moderator
- Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
I never said the OVEC conducted the poll. I said they backed it. The poll was paid for by The Appalachian Center for the Economy and the Environment, a regional policy and law center based in Lewisburg paid Lake Snell Perry & Associates to conduct the poll.
So what is The Appalachian Center???
The only thing Frank proved was MY point. This poll you've linked to is biased and prejudiced and the questions were clearly designed to with pre-determined results in mind. It worked, don't you think!!!!!
.
So what is The Appalachian Center???
The Appalachian Center is a regional law and policy organization. The Center works together with individual citizens and grassroots citizens' groups to clarify, analyze and act on the environmental and economic issues that affect our communities. We carry out precedent-setting litigation strategically designed to protect the environment and the health of communities. We also conduct research and analysis, and advocate for a sustainable and just economy for the region.
The Center seeks fundamental changes in compliance, implementation and enforcement of major environmental laws in Central Appalachia. We seek to start the long process of replacing the shortsighted economic policies of the region with more sustainable and responsible policies. All of our court actions and policy initiatives are formulated to have long-term and systemic impacts.
Mountaintop removal coal mining sites like this one have destroyed nearly 1500 square miles of central Appalachia. Areas that were once the most productive and diverse temperate hardwood forests in the world are now waste scrublands. Because of the work of Center staff, state and federal agencies are conducting the first ever programmatic environmental impact statement to assess damage done by mountaintop removal coal mining.
Our activities are intended to have region-wide (and often nationwide) impacts. Our media work is directed at raising public awareness of the tragedy befalling the citizens of Central Appalachia at the hands of the coal industry. Each victory will also raise the price of coal as an energy source, reduce externalities associated with coal mining and burning and make more sustainable alternatives more attractive. We have very carefully chosen our project priorities with these goals in mind.
The Center is working to stop mountaintop removal coal mining, to protect communities from the adverse health effects caused by water and air pollution generated by resource extraction, coal burning power plants, and other destructive practices, and to protect and restore the region's hardwood forests, which are the most biologically diverse and productive temperate hardwood forests in the world. source
The only thing Frank proved was MY point. This poll you've linked to is biased and prejudiced and the questions were clearly designed to with pre-determined results in mind. It worked, don't you think!!!!!
.
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
ziggy wrote:Since I don't duck questions, I'll answer yours. For starters, they could have started by leaving out statements like "As you may know, the Bush adminstration has changed the rules..."
That would have been a tad less partisan, don't you think!!!!!!!!!!
And less accurate, too.
That's your opinion. Your entitled to it.
But I understand why the TAC tilted their questions the way they did, to meet their agenda.
After all, if they ask a simple question such as, Do you favor or are you opposed to Mountain top removal mining, they might not have liked the answers.
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
sodbuster wrote:This issue of mountain top removal strip mining is one where both Parties in WV have adopted a position clearly contrary to the will of the people.
A clear majority of West Virginians are opposed to this abomination.
It is also true that a clear majority of West Virginians are supportive of mountain top removal for the purpose of building hospitals, shopping malls, roads, airports, etc., etc.
Thus, it is quite obvious to me that a a clear majority of West Virginians don't really give a shidt one way or the other about the issue of mountain top removal ......... because if they did there would be HUNDREDS of them over at Weston off Rt. 33 at this very minute a protesting, picketing, bitching, complaining and demanding those contractors immediately stop that "mountain top removal" that is currently in progress.
Thus, your "clear majority" crap is only relative if the real estate in question has a lump of coal underneath it ....... and the contractor goes after it first and economic development secondly.
Thus, your "clear majority" must only consist of dumbasses, do-nothingers, troughfeeders and/or political partisaners ....... who are absolutely, positively against any form of coal mining in West Virginia.
.
SamCogar- Number of posts : 6238
Location : Burnsville, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
SamCogar wrote:
...who are absolutely, positively against any form of coal mining in West Virginia.
Me thinks that Sam, in his ole so subtle way, has hit the nail squarely on the head.
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
http://www.lakesnellperry.com/services/index.htm
Well here is the pollster website.
Also note they were active in the successful Wise Campaign.
As to your comment about opposing all mining that is just the same ol same ol.
When you cant argue the facts you just put up a strawman argument.
Nothing new there....
Well here is the pollster website.
Also note they were active in the successful Wise Campaign.
As to your comment about opposing all mining that is just the same ol same ol.
When you cant argue the facts you just put up a strawman argument.
Nothing new there....
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
sodbuster wrote:http://www.lakesnellperry.com/services/index.htm
Well here is the pollster website.
Also note they were active in the successful Wise Campaign.
As to your comment about opposing all mining that is just the same ol same ol.
When you cant argue the facts you just put up a strawman argument.
Nothing new there....
And when those "dumbasses, do-nothingers, troughfeeders and/or political partisaners" ...... can't and won't admit to the fact that they only oppose mountain top removal when there is a seam of coal involved, ........ proves they are what they have been accused of being.
.
SamCogar- Number of posts : 6238
Location : Burnsville, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
There's nothing strawman about what I'm saying, which is, the results of the poll you cite were predetermined by the questions being ask.
Regardless of who conducted the poll, the group footing the bill for the poll, in this case The Appalachian Center for the Economy and the Environment, has the final say over the questions ask. And it is clear that they ask questions with the goal of soliciting the answers they got.
Now on a personal note, do I believe they are also against coal mining in general? Yes I do, but that doesn't change the rest of what I'm stating in the least.
Regardless of who conducted the poll, the group footing the bill for the poll, in this case The Appalachian Center for the Economy and the Environment, has the final say over the questions ask. And it is clear that they ask questions with the goal of soliciting the answers they got.
Now on a personal note, do I believe they are also against coal mining in general? Yes I do, but that doesn't change the rest of what I'm stating in the least.
Aaron- Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28
Re: on a former Massey Energy surface mine
The question of the poll's legitimacy is of course legitimate and worthy of discussion.
But Sam's post had nothing to do with that.
"And when those "dumbasses, do-nothingers, troughfeeders and/or political partisaners" ...... can't and won't admit to the fact that they only oppose mountain top removal when there is a seam of coal involved, ........ proves they are what they have been accused of being."
That is his usual insults and slurs that that are not just allowed but supported and encouraged by the forum hierarchy.
Those comments have nothing to do with any bias of the pollsters, but are clearly intended to be personal insults.
I am not opposed to all mining and he knows it since I have so stated many times.
So objective readers can judge for themselves.
But I repeat, the best evidence we have indicates a majority are against mtr strip mining.
If you have credible evidence to the contrary please post it.
But Sam's post had nothing to do with that.
"And when those "dumbasses, do-nothingers, troughfeeders and/or political partisaners" ...... can't and won't admit to the fact that they only oppose mountain top removal when there is a seam of coal involved, ........ proves they are what they have been accused of being."
That is his usual insults and slurs that that are not just allowed but supported and encouraged by the forum hierarchy.
Those comments have nothing to do with any bias of the pollsters, but are clearly intended to be personal insults.
I am not opposed to all mining and he knows it since I have so stated many times.
So objective readers can judge for themselves.
But I repeat, the best evidence we have indicates a majority are against mtr strip mining.
If you have credible evidence to the contrary please post it.
sodbuster- Number of posts : 1890
Location : wv
Registration date : 2008-09-05
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