Since we are talking about local education...

... well, I'm not talking, I'm just lurking (up until now, anyway), but I digress...

Check it:

[url]Algebra requirement on way for freshmen

This was standard for NY in the '70's, '80's and '90's (and I imagine it still is).

If you were "math challenged", you could get an extra year of algebra and not take 4th year math (pre-calculus).

I'm not going to apologize for thinking this is not too high an expectation.

Plane geometry is a necessity for life, as far as I am concerned. To do it right, you really need differential calculus, but a good approximation can be made using algebra.

It says volumes, to me, anyway, that a MATH TEACHER is speaking out against it.

Algebra, with mandatory passing an exit examination has been a requirement in Putnam County to graduate for at least the past 5 years that I know of. Students are tested in the 7th grade. Those that pass the test take algebra in the 8th grade. Those that don't are required to take a pre-algebra course and then take algebra in the 9th grade. If they don’t pass it or pass the exit examination, they not supposed to graduate.

I agree, math is a basic fundamental in life. I don't have a problem with requiring 4 credits to graduate. What I would like to see is some classes in general accounting, planning a budget, calculationg credit card cost, balancing a check book and stuff of that nature. It's an oftern overlooked area in school and lots of kids get in trouble because they can't balance a check book or they get overextended because they don't have a clue as to how a budget works.

Aaron wrote:I agree, math is a basic fundamental in life. I don't have a problem with requiring 4 credits to graduate. What I would like to see is some classes in general accounting, planning a budget, calculationg credit card cost, balancing a check book and stuff of that nature. It's an oftern overlooked area in school and lots of kids get in trouble because they can't balance a check book or they get overextended because they don't have a clue as to how a budget works.

Now that is one damn good idea, Aaron. The numbers of "graduates" who don't do the simple math associated with managing their own money is staggering. A lot of people could "save" more wasted money- by knowing how to manage it better- than any "pay raise" they could wring out of their employer.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:I agree, math is a basic fundamental in life. I don't have a problem with requiring 4 credits to graduate. What I would like to see is some classes in general accounting, planning a budget, calculationg credit card cost, balancing a check book and stuff of that nature. It's an oftern overlooked area in school and lots of kids get in trouble because they can't balance a check book or they get overextended because they don't have a clue as to how a budget works.

Now that is one damn good idea, Aaron. The numbers of "graduates" who don't do the simple math associated with managing their own money is staggering. A lot of people could "save" more wasted money- by knowing how to manage it better- than any "pay raise" they could wring out of their employer.

Sorry Zig but I don't get the gist of your rant. You're going to have to break it down and perhaps you can explain how 'pay raises' came into the conversation while you're at it.

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote: Now that is one damn good idea, Aaron. The numbers of "graduates" who don't do the simple math associated with managing their own money is staggering. A lot of people could "save" more wasted money- by knowing how to manage it better- than any "pay raise" they could wring out of their employer.

Sorry Zig but I don't get the gist of your rant. You're going to have to break it down and perhaps you can explain how 'pay raises' came into the conversation while you're at it.

Why Aaron, I can tell you that.

1. Teachers are always poor-mouthing it claiming they need a rai$e just to survive.

2. The numbers of Teachers who don't do the simple math associated with managing their own money is staggering.

Ole Zig knows why those teachers are always "broke".

.

TerryRC wrote:... well, I'm not talking, I'm just lurking (up until now, anyway), but I digress...

Check it:

[url]Algebra requirement on way for freshmen

This was standard for NY in the '70's, '80's and '90's (and I imagine it still is).

If you were "math challenged", you could get an extra year of algebra and not take 4th year math (pre-calculus).

I'm not going to apologize for thinking this is not too high an expectation.

Plane geometry is a necessity for life, as far as I am concerned. To do it right, you really need differential calculus, but a good approximation can be made using algebra.

It says volumes, to me, anyway, that a MATH TEACHER is speaking out against it.

I don't have a problem with requiring 4 credits in math, and I don't have a problem with requiring passing Algebra to graduate. What I do have a problem with is suddenly forcing this change at the high school level. They are beginning at the end, it's backwards.

If the DOE or a local school district wants to set the bar higher for graduation, they need to implement changes in the elementary and middle schools before tackeling the high school. I do think the changes described in the article are very likely to raise the dropout rate and who does that help?

Remember that math teacher at the high school level is on the front line of having to teach algebra and higher level math to students who weren't taught basic math concepts because that wasn't the "in thing" when those students were in elementary school. He sees the impact those fads have on students. He also has to deal with students who were promoted for social reasons rather than because of academic achievement. It isn't fair to penalize these students.

I'm with Ziggy that high school students should take a life skills course that includes things like balancing a checkbook, budgeting, and financial planning. Think about what a benefit those kinds of skills would be to possess upon high school graduation rather than having to learn them and many others at the school of hard knocks. I'm sure that would be much more beneficial to a fair percentage of students than pre-cal or algebra II.

I also agree with Ziggy that for much of the population learning how to manage their finances and make sound financial decisions would generate much more wealth and/or buying power for them than any raise they are likely to get from their employer. He has nothing to be defend, imho.

btw Aaron.........in the fall of 2006 Heather Hawes (Putnam County Gifted & Talented teacher) & Michelle Johnson (BHS Guidance Counselor) told me that the Algebra exit exam is a breeze. The prior semester only one student in the entire county failed that exam, was allowed to retake it and passed the second time. I fail to see the value in such foolishness and find it to be a waste of valuable time and resources.

Stephanie wrote:I don't have a problem with requiring 4 credits in math, and I don't have a problem with requiring passing Algebra to graduate. What I do have a problem with is suddenly forcing this change at the high school level. They are beginning at the end, it's backwards.

If the DOE or a local school district wants to set the bar higher for graduation, they need to implement changes in the elementary and middle schools before tackeling the high school. I do think the changes described in the article are very likely to raise the dropout rate and who does that help?
Remember that math teacher at the high school level is on the front line of having to teach algebra and higher level math to students who weren't taught basic math concepts because that wasn't the "in thing" when those students were in elementary school. He sees the impact those fads have on students. He also has to deal with students who were promoted for social reasons rather than because of academic achievement. It isn't fair to penalize these students.

The earliest this requirement could take effect is for this years 8th graders as graduation requirements have already been set for all current high school students.

Stephanie wrote:I'm with Ziggy that high school students should take a life skills course that includes things like balancing a checkbook, budgeting, and financial planning. Think about what a benefit those kinds of skills would be to possess upon high school graduation rather than having to learn them and many others at the school of hard knocks. I'm sure that would be much more beneficial to a fair percentage of students than pre-cal or algebra II.

Ziggy didn't say that. Aaron did. Now say you agree with Aaron please.

Stephanie wrote:I also agree with Ziggy that for much of the population learning how to manage their finances and make sound financial decisions would generate much more wealth and/or buying power for them than any raise they are likely to get from their employer. He has nothing to be defend, imho.

First, who Ziggy to defend anything. I didn't. I ask him to clarify his rant because I didn't understand what he was trying to say. I still don't and I really don't see how you got what you did from his rant. IM really confused here.

Stephanie wrote:btw Aaron.........in the fall of 2006 Heather Hawes (Putnam County Gifted & Talented teacher) & Michelle Johnson (BHS Guidance Counselor) told me that the Algebra exit exam is a breeze. The prior semester only one student in the entire county failed that exam, was allowed to retake it and passed the second time. I fail to see the value in such foolishness and find it to be a waste of valuable time and resources.

Of course they told you that and of course you feel that way .

Neither changes the fact that it's still a graduaton requirement for Putnam county schools.

I think that basically what this article said is saying is that the state is going to adopt the math standards for graduation that Putnam County currently mandates so if the exit exam is a joke, then it's going to be a joke state wide.

Aaron,

I agreed with Ziggy's agreement with you

I provide the names and general date that was told to me so you could verify it. The algebra exit exam Putnam County used was a joke. My daughter sure thought it was a waste of time. Heather Hawes has an office at PHS, you probably have PHS on speed dial.

I know the requirement goes into effect for the upcoming freshman class. That was my point. It is too late to mandate such a thing for the incoming freshmen. If those students are required to take algebra next year they should be taking pre-algebra this year and they needed to be prepared for that last school year. It's too late.

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

I agreed with Ziggy's agreement with you

I didn't get that Ziggy agreed with me??? I didn't get that. HMMM.

Stephanie wrote:I provide the names and general date that was told to me so you could verify it. The algebra exit exam Putnam County used was a joke. My daughter sure thought it was a waste of time. Heather Hawes has an office at PHS, you probably have PHS on speed dial.

I don't think Heather is very fond of me. She made a comment about pay at a 3 year plan meeting and I, to the chagrin of my 15 year old, expressed my opinion of her comment.

What I will do is mention this at the next ball game to the principal. I'm sure it will get back to her.

Stephanie wrote:I know the requirement goes into effect for the upcoming freshman class. That was my point. It is too late to mandate such a thing for the incoming freshmen. If those students are required to take algebra next year they should be taking pre-algebra this year and they needed to be prepared for that last school year. It's too late.

My youngest is a freshman so it has no bearing on me. But I don't think the increased standards is going to lead to a 20% increase in the drop out rate.

I'm not sure a 20% increase in the drop out rate is that far off the mark. In any event, even if it leads to a 5% increase schools need to decrease the drop out rate, not increase it.

You could simply ask your son's guidance counselor about the algebra exit exam. I'm sure he or she has that information available.

Also I'd like to point out that "That's a damn good idea Aaron" sure sounds like agreement to me.

I learned a long time ago never to take anything Zig says at face value. His "pay raise" part of the comment tells me there's more to what he's saying so forgive me, but I don't think he agrees with what I was saying. At least not completely.

If you knew the guideance counslors I deal with you wouldn't suggest I talk to them. They are what I have in mind when I think of educational reform. One took my 15 year old out of a history class becasue "he has enough of them classes already" and put him in drivers ed course.

Why do we compensate a teacher $35,000+ to teach drivers ed when most can't drive themselves? I wonder how much money Putnam county alone waste on this pointless exercise between 4 schools, 4 drivers ed and the cars they maintain, with insurance to drive teachers around??? I've seen kids setting in cars waiting at banks, post offices, dry cleaners and even Home Depot on MY MONEY.

And you guys bitch about sports which at least have some purpose and meaning for kids and overall are are self sufficient.

Aaron,

Now there's a story I'm having trouble swallowing. Poca is in Putnam County just as Buffalo is. When a change is made to my daughter's schedule I have to grant permission.

After about 2 weeks of school her Advanced Communications class was dropped. I can't remember what waste of time she had selected, but when she brought it home I vetoed it. Boy was she glad she did. Instead of taking a class she didn't want or need, she got her arts credit out of the way.

So, I'm not buying your driver's ed story unless your exwife signed off on it.

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

Now there's a story I'm having trouble swallowing. Poca is in Putnam County just as Buffalo is. When a change is made to my daughter's schedule I have to grant permission.

After about 2 weeks of school her Advanced Communications class was dropped. I can't remember what waste of time she had selected, but when she brought it home I vetoed it. Boy was she glad she did. Instead of taking a class she didn't want or need, she got her arts credit out of the way.

So, I'm not buying your driver's ed story unless your exwife signed off on it.

You do know what a 3 year meeting is, don't you Stephanie??? At any rate, if they're sending her schedule home to you prior to that meeting or without having that meeting, then it's my experience from 3 previous kids going through this that you and your daughter was given special consideration and is in no way the norm for Putnam County.

Just out of curiousity, how many days a week would you say you're at the high school???

At any rate, it wasn't after his schedule was made, it was before it was made. He put his schedule together, took it to his 'advisor' to prepare for the 3 year plan meeting and she changed it. He went along because he's 16 and thinks it's cool to have a class doing nothing.

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

Now there's a story I'm having trouble swallowing. Poca is in Putnam County just as Buffalo is. When a change is made to my daughter's schedule I have to grant permission.

After about 2 weeks of school her Advanced Communications class was dropped. I can't remember what waste of time she had selected, but when she brought it home I vetoed it. Boy was she glad she did. Instead of taking a class she didn't want or need, she got her arts credit out of the way.

So, I'm not buying your driver's ed story unless your exwife signed off on it.

You do know what a 3 year meeting is, don't you Stephanie??? At any rate, if they're sending her schedule home to you prior to that meeting or without having that meeting, then it's my experience from 3 previous kids going through this that you and your daughter was given special consideration and is in no way the norm for Putnam County.

Just out of curiousity, how many days a week would you say you're at the high school???

At any rate, it wasn't after his schedule was made, it was before it was made. He put his schedule together, took it to his 'advisor' to prepare for the 3 year plan meeting and she changed it. He went along because he's 16 and thinks it's cool to have a class doing nothing.

Are you talking about the 3 year plan that is developed in conjunction with the Intro to Majors Class? If so you had the opportunity to change that class at the meeting. I just attended that meeting less than two weeks ago. I witnessed parents do it. Besides, before that meeting my daughter received her course selection sheet and we filled it out and sent it back before the meeting. She doesn't have her schedule yet for next year, but I know from last year that when she receives it we will have the opportunity to make changes once again.

This schedule change had nothing to do with a 3 year plan or any meeting. The class was dropped after it began. All of the students in that class had to pick up another class in its place. All of those students had to have their parents sign off on the new class assignment. I have no way of knowing how many other parents in that class did what I did but they all were given the opportunity to.

Perhaps the problem isn't Putnam County Schools, but Poca High School. That wouldn't happen in Buffalo.

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:Aaron,

I agreed with Ziggy's agreement with you

I didn't get that Ziggy agreed with me??? I didn't get that. HMMM.

That's only because you don't want to "get that". Sam and Stephanie ain't any smarter than you. But they both "got it" immediately- though Sam put his own spin on it.

I said that it was a damn good idea. And I wasn't just trying to besarcastic, either, as I went on to explain some of the why of it being a good idea.

Either take off your Ziggy blinders, or else ignore my posts when I agree with you- which you seem to hate when that happens.

Aaron wrote:I learned a long time ago never to take anything Zig says at face value. His "pay raise" part of the comment tells me there's more to what he's saying so forgive me, but I don't think he agrees with what I was saying. At least not completely.

What more is there to be to it? Why don't you read what I said instead of focusing on what you are afraid I might be thinking.

A dollar saved is better than a dollar earned- because it has already been earned once. But to get another one, you gotta earn it again. Now if you understand that, you understand exactly what I said when I agreed with you. If you don't understand it, well, then that whole $107,000 you were paid in 2006 did you damn little benefit.

Aaron wrote:If you knew the guideance counslors I deal with you wouldn't suggest I talk to them. They are what I have in mind when I think of educational reform.

Why do we compensate a teacher $35,000+ to teach drivers ed when most can't drive themselves? I wonder how much money Putnam county alone waste on this pointless exercise between 4 schools, 4 drivers ed and the cars they maintain, with insurance to drive teachers around??? I've seen kids setting in cars waiting at banks, post offices, dry cleaners and even Home Depot on MY MONEY.

And you guys bitch about sports which at least have some purpose and meaning for kids and overall are are self sufficient.

Well "DUH", ........ Aaron, what do you suggest they do with those Teachers ........ if the don't assign them the job of Guidance Counslor or Driver's Ed instructor?

GEEEZE, they don't dare put them in the Classroom, ....... and they can't fire them.

.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:I learned a long time ago never to take anything Zig says at face value. His "pay raise" part of the comment tells me there's more to what he's saying so forgive me, but I don't think he agrees with what I was saying. At least not completely.

What more is there to be to it? Why don't you read what I said instead of focusing on what you are afraid I might be thinking.

A dollar saved is better than a dollar earned- because it has already been earned once. But to get another one, you gotta earn it again. Now if you understand that, you understand exactly what I said when I agreed with you. If you don't understand it, well, then that whole $107,000 you were paid in 2006 did you damn little benefit.

$124,900.00.

ballpark.