Cost of the bailout

My bad. For some reason I thought Sod was say HS. I'll wake up in a bit when I get my coffee.

That is not my MO, Aaron.

You should know that by now.

It was, in fact, around the turn of the last century that people realized what unbridled Capitalism can do.

They learned that from the robber barons, and began to realize they would have to be reined in or they would destroy the country.

And after the Hoover depression they put even more regulations in place to avoid a repeat.

Sadly, it appears the folks charged with enforcing these regulations were not diligent enough in their duty to enforce them.

So now we will need to address that problem with better regulations, it seems.

But no one among the movers and shakers denies we need meaningful regulation as opposed to raw, "law of the jungle" capitalism.

As I said, my bad Sod.

Yes, I know you don't repsond in that manner. You have my apology.

But you've still not shown when and why unbridled capitalism failed.

You've cited Teddy Roosevelt as a trustbuster but you've failed to elaborate. In fact, TR was a president who had "an eagerness to meddle in the conflicts of other nations, a disregard for constitutional limits on governmental power, a disdain for profit through commerce, and the desire to subject people to control by governmental experts who will act “in the public interest.” In sum, Roosevelt was a thoroughgoing authoritarian, and we still live with the baneful effects of his presidency."

Teddy

Granted, this may very well be a libertarian view but it doesn't change the facts about TR. He was a big government, intrusive nation builder who thought the government knew better then the people and did as much if not more harm then good for this country.

He can't demonstrate it. I'm waiting and waiting.

The combination of socialism and fiat currency is destroying the nation. Nobody can show me I'm incorrect, I just keep hearing about how capitalism failed.

Now we're hearing that in the first part of the 20th century capitalism was proven a failure. Well then demonstrate it. Look at the events of the decades leading up to the Depression. What changes were made that lead to the crash and the subsequent depression.

First and foremost the nation had a private bank take control of our currency. They manipulated the market and fiddled around with rates and the volume of currency and Sherm wants to call that "capitalism".

Government manipulation of the markets is not "capitalism". It is another hallmark of the "early 1900's". So show me where capitalism was proven a failure.

You don't like the phrase "horse shit"? I'll try to think of a 'G' rated version. How about doggie doo? It's doggie doo.

early 1900's in this country.

Wait a moment, Steph.

Why is sherm's statement "horse shit"?

In a free market, what keeps the Standard Oils, and the like, from forming a monopoly?

Sod said capitalism failed be he's not shown how or when even though he's been ask many times.

Congressional authority under the Commerce Clause is what prevents the Standard Oil's from creating a monopoly, which they can do without destroying free trade.

Do you agree with Sod that free trade failed in the early 1900's, which is what Steph was calling HS?

Terry,

I don't have time to adequately answer this. I will say, however, the federal government has allowed, even encouraged, some monopolies to thrive. Monopolies can be prevented, and busted, without destroying the free market system. Congress has within its power the ability to do so, they choose not to.

Also, one cannot discuss the failures in the US economy without discussing the creation of the Federal Reserve and the fiddling around they immediately began with our currency.

I'm off to bake cookies now. OMG I'm so far behind.

The new age lefty liberal socialist minded people like Sherman, Ziggy, TRC, ect. are adamantly against any and all things such as the Robber Barons, industrialists, etc. that were responsible for forging this Country into what it is today. And if you ask them I’m sure they will tell that they are equally adamant against the actions of Peter the Great for the way he forged Russia into what it is today.

Sherman, Ziggy, TRC, ect. have really great and wonderful “hindsight” as to how a Nation should be forged out of the wilderness ……. now that they can ponder the situation as they sit on their ass in relative comfort that was provided to them via the actions of those that they dearly hate for their said actions.

YUP, that silly trio would never have “made it on their” if they had been born 80 to 150 years ago. Their asses would have starved for lack of something to shit out and there would be no memory of their passing.




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Sherman, Ziggy, TRC, ect. have really great and wonderful “hindsight” as to how a Nation should be forged out of the wilderness .............................

What "wilderness"? There was already a Nation within that "wilderness' before Europeans set foot here. And the first thing Europeans set out to do was to first exploit and then to destroy that Nation. So don't get all high and mighty with us about how to forge a Nation "out of the wilderness".

Destroying one Nation simply to "forge" another in its place is not the progress that the exploiters and the destroyers would have us believe it to be.

YADA, ..... YADA, ..... YADA, ..... YADA, .....

Still mopeing around and feeling sorry for youself, but blaming it on everyone else, because you still think success should have been handed to you without working for it.

But with an attitude like yours, you were doomed to failure from the beginning.

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The new age lefty liberal socialist minded people like Sherman, Ziggy, TRC, ect. are adamantly against any and all things such as the Robber Barons, industrialists, etc. that were responsible for forging this Country into what it is today. And if you ask them I’m sure they will tell that they are equally adamant against the actions of Peter the Great for the way he forged Russia into what it is today.

Blah, blah, fucking blah.

Don't presume to speak for me.

Why don't you ask me what I think, you cowardly knave?

It is obvious what YOU think - the ends justify the means.

Merry Christmas.

Oh, I'm feeling the love gentlemen!

I don't know what to tell you about the founding of our nation. People were treated unjustly. People were abused, had property stolen from them, lost their liberty, even their lives. That has gone on throughout human history.

The way America was founded really isn't all that unique. The Turks invaded everybody. Look what the Russians did to the Poles for a hundred years or more. I wish I were a better student of history. The Romans, think what the Romans did...or the British. All these empires did horrible things to other people. I can't fix that and none of you can either. We can't change what has happened in the past.

All we can do is a better job than those who went before us did. Too bad we aren't. America is still building empires and still taking away the property, liberty, even the lives of other people. Sometimes we just pay for others to do it for us, and sometimes we send in the US Armed forces. It's always wrong.

I won't apologize for the colonists. I wasn't one of them, neither were my parents or grandparents or even great grandparents. Hell, most of my grandparents and great grandparents were victims of oppression and discrimination in their youth. My mother's maternal grandparents fled Poland. Her paternal grandmother was brought to this country as an orphaned infant by her aunt from Ireland. My paternal great grandparents all came to this country from Italy. None of them were treated fairly. They all existed as indentured servants, or toiled away for pennies a day in textile mills and the like.

I don't feel like anybody owes me anything as a result of this. I didn't suffer those hardships and the people that did are all died before I was born. Even the grandmother I was named for who was forced to quit school and work in a factory at the age of 8 or 9 or whatever it was (I'll make sure and ask my mom we I speak to her again) because her parents were sick with TB has been dead for 50 freaking years. Nobody owes me anything for her lost childhood. I'm not the one who lost her childhood.

You guys just need to get over it.

ziggy wrote:What "wilderness"? There was already a Nation within that "wilderness' before Europeans set foot here. And the first thing Europeans set out to do was to first exploit and then to destroy that Nation. So don't get all high and mighty with us about how to forge a Nation "out of the wilderness".

Destroying one Nation simply to "forge" another in its place is not the progress that the exploiters and the destroyers would have us believe it to be.

Zig, it appears that you only believe and adhere to those principles ......... depending on what size that "nation" is, ..... right.

Must be because I didn't see where you launched any disagreement about this, to wit:

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- Outgoing state Supreme Court Chief Justice Elliott "Spike" Maynard believes his colleagues made a "grave error" in upholding a judge's decision to allow the state Division of Highways to seize private property to use as a waste site for a road project.

Maynard, in a dissenting opinion released Thursday, said evidence put forth by a Logan County contractor that owned the property showed there were other options the state could have pursued and that there was no pressing public reason that the land in question had to be seized.

"In this case, the taking was not essential or even necessary, and many other reasonable options clearly existed," Maynard wrote in his dissent.

"This taking is even more disturbing when one realizes that the DOH condemned property it simply did not need, and did so in a way that has never been done in the history of this state."

http://www.dailymail.com/News/200812190142

But I'm sure that now that I've brought it to everyone''s attention that you will weigh in on it to CYA.



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I don't need to "CYA" on it, Sam. It was not my doing.

But anyway, Maynard was right on that one- though in the minority.

Stephanie wrote:Oh, I'm feeling the love gentlemen!

I don't know what to tell you about the founding of our nation. People were treated unjustly. People were abused, had property stolen from them, lost their liberty, even their lives. That has gone on throughout human history.

The way America was founded really isn't all that unique. The Turks invaded everybody. Look what the Russians did to the Poles for a hundred years or more. I wish I were a better student of history. The Romans, think what the Romans did...or the British. All these empires did horrible things to other people. I can't fix that and none of you can either. We can't change what has happened in the past.

All we can do is a better job than those who went before us did. Too bad we aren't. America is still building empires and still taking away the property, liberty, even the lives of other people. Sometimes we just pay for others to do it for us, and sometimes we send in the US Armed forces. It's always wrong.

I won't apologize for the colonists. I wasn't one of them, neither were my parents or grandparents or even great grandparents. Hell, most of my grandparents and great grandparents were victims of oppression and discrimination in their youth. My mother's maternal grandparents fled Poland. Her paternal grandmother was brought to this country as an orphaned infant by her aunt from Ireland. My paternal great grandparents all came to this country from Italy. None of them were treated fairly. They all existed as indentured servants, or toiled away for pennies a day in textile mills and the like.

I don't feel like anybody owes me anything as a result of this. I didn't suffer those hardships and the people that did are all died before I was born. Even the grandmother I was named for who was forced to quit school and work in a factory at the age of 8 or 9 or whatever it was (I'll make sure and ask my mom we I speak to her again) because her parents were sick with TB has been dead for 50 freaking years. Nobody owes me anything for her lost childhood. I'm not the one who lost her childhood.

You guys just need to get over it.

And that's OK, Stephanie- a pretty good commentary on some of it.

My complaint is with those who contend that before white Europeans terrorists came here that America was just "wilderness" and that these white European terrorists made some kind of a paradise of human virtue of it all.

That is all so simplistic and untrue to history as to defy credulity- the great SamCogar's pitifully pissy pontifications notwithstanding.

ziggy wrote:My complaint is with those who contend that before white Europeans terrorists came here that America was just "wilderness" and that these white European terrorists made some kind of a paradise of human virtue of it all.

That is all so simplistic and untrue to history as to defy credulity- the great SamCogar's pitifully pissy pontifications notwithstanding.

I can't think of anyone that you don't or didn't have a complaint with, Ziggy, so tell us something we didn't know.

And North America was per say "wilderness" when the Europeans first arrived here. No roads, no cities, no infrastructure. Of course, the way you have lived all your life I can understand why you would think otherwise.

And the Northeastern part of North America does not constitute the whole of it.

And only there was there anything similar to the "paradise" our founding father created for us. And "DUH", one of the reason for that is:

"The original United States representative democracy, fashioned by such central authors as Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, drew much inspiration from this confederacy of nations."

(And that was a hyper-text url, so you can click it if you like.)

But these Six Nations were not a unified democracy but a participatory democracy, meaning they basically left each other alone to "do their own thing" that they had been doing for hundreds of years.

But, for the rest of North America it was basically every native american tribe "for itself" ......... and they fought like ...... "indians and indians".

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And North America was per say "wilderness" when the Europeans first arrived here. No roads, no cities, no infrastructure.

There were roads, there were cities, there was infrastructure. That those amenities did not meet the demands of conquering European terrorists did not make it any less so.

Of course, the way you have lived all your life I can understand why you would think otherwise.

Huh?

The people who lived in North America prior to the colonization by the Europeans waged war against each other with regularity.

I agree that Sam views the colonization of North America through rose colored lenses. I think when it comes to how the indigenous people of this continent lived and interacted with each other, Ziggy wears rose colored glasses all his own.

Stephanie wrote:

I agree that Sam views the colonization of North America through rose colored lenses.

I don't, but if you say so then that's OK.

Actually, I view most everything through ....... reality corrected lenses.

Steph, maybe you should ask Ziggy to cite you a few examples of those "roads, cities, and infrastructure" he is talking about that existed. He won't tell me so there is no reason for me asking him.

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Sam,

Most of the tribes in New England had villages. I wouldn't call them cities, but permanent communities certainly did exist. They didn't have roads, but well worn trails and paths. Calling them uncivilized or wild or whatever isn't really fair. Their culture was different. Most Europeans failed to demonstrate any civility to the native Americans. I'll bet the natives didn't think the European colonists were very civilized either.

Stephanie wrote:Sam,

Most of the tribes in New England had villages. I wouldn't call them cities, but permanent communities certainly did exist. They didn't have roads, but well worn trails and paths.

And that is why North America was noted as "wilderness". Just like the Bible states Moses took his motly crew to live for 40 years.

Stephanie wrote:Calling them uncivilized or wild or whatever isn't really fair.

Now I don't believe anyone said anything about civilized or uncivilized. But anyway, they were civilized accordingly to their own standards, which in many cases were better than the white man's.

Stephanie wrote:Their culture was different. Most Europeans failed to demonstrate any civility to the native Americans. I'll bet the natives didn't think the European colonists were very civilized either.

Many Europeans were liars, dishonest and untrustworthy.

In the beginning, very, very few if any Native Americans were ........ but they quickly learnded to act differently toward the white man.

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