House Passes Mandatory National Service Bill

I don't know why anyone is suprised with this bill. Obama said during the campaign that he wanted a national civilian force to rival the military. Just as then, the media will hide the obvious comparisons to 1920's/30's Germany.

Aaron wrote:Everyone here has heard your crying about your gold star and the mean 5th grade teacher as well as your whining about religion.

Yes, and I will whine about it again when I goddamn well please. I don't cram my religion down anyone else's throat, and I'm not gonna let them cram theirs down mine as long as I have the wherewithall to not allow it.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:Everyone here has heard your crying about your gold star and the mean 5th grade teacher as well as your whining about religion.

Yes, and I will whine about it again when I goddamn well please. I don't cram my religion down anyone else's throat, and I'm not gonna let them cram theirs down mine as long as I have the wherewithall to not allow it.

Well now, you certainly haven't had any reservations supporting the use of the force of law to cram views I find offensive down my throat. Me thinks thou is a whitewashed wall, all pretty and nice on the outside and full of dead mens bones on the inside.

ziggy wrote:
And unlike you, I do not brush off the Courts as just wimpishly obedient entities to some president I didn't like.

I've never brushed off the courts as an obedient entity of the President.

I think you're hearing the voices again.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:Everyone here has heard your crying about your gold star and the mean 5th grade teacher as well as your whining about religion.

Yes, and I will whine about it again when I goddamn well please. I don't cram my religion down anyone else's throat, and I'm not gonna let them cram theirs down mine as long as I have the wherewithall to not allow it.

That's ALL you do, is whine and complain. And try to cram your beliefs down others throats. You are the defination of a hypocrite.

That's ALL you do, is whine and complain. And try to cram your beliefs down others throats.

What religious beliefs have I tried to cram down anyone's throat?

Cato wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:Everyone here has heard your crying about your gold star and the mean 5th grade teacher as well as your whining about religion.

Yes, and I will whine about it again when I goddamn well please. I don't cram my religion down anyone else's throat, and I'm not gonna let them cram theirs down mine as long as I have the wherewithall to not allow it.

Well now, you certainly haven't had any reservations supporting the use of the force of law to cram views I find offensive down my throat. Me thinks thou is a whitewashed wall, all pretty and nice on the outside and full of dead mens bones on the inside.

Cato, just like you, I am an anarchist. So pedal your garbage somewhere else.

ziggy wrote:

That's ALL you do, is whine and complain. And try to cram your beliefs down others throats.

What religious beliefs have I tried to cram down anyone's throat?

On top of whining, you can't read. Where did I say anything about religion?

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

That's ALL you do, is whine and complain. And try to cram your beliefs down others throats.

What religious beliefs have I tried to cram down anyone's throat?

On top of whining, you can't read. Where did I say anything about religion?

You are not the sole authority on what this or any other discussion is about. As relates to the discussion about God and 5th grade gold starts, it is about craming religion down the throats of others. You might think that is all fine and dandy. I don't.

I'm merely pointing out all your hypocritical statements starting with your believing the same way our founders do. It's a lie and I pointed it out.

I used your crying about your 5th grade teacher to prove it. You don't believe in the God our founders do and the gold star is one of the reasons why. You've said so many times.

And every time someone says something regarding their faith, you start crying again about how they are cramming their religion down your throat when that's simply not the case.

So you cry about that while at the same time you're the one trying to shove your Marxist views on everyone else and I'm here to tell you that dog ain’t hunting.

Aaron wrote:I'm merely pointing out all your hypocritical statements starting with your believing the same way our founders do. It's a lie and I pointed it out. I used your crying about your 5th grade teacher to prove it. You don't believe in the God our founders do and the gold star is one of the reasons why. You've said so many times.

My 5th grade teacher believed in a trinitarian God and that its usefulness to her purposes depended in part on her ability to command obedience to it via her government sanctioned authority as a public school teacher.

How many of the founders believed in a trinitarian God? How many believed that it was the duty of goverrnment to promote their God? When we read their writings about God and religion and spirituality, we find that most of them believed in, at most, one single, natural God.

In the Declaration of Independence, one of the the founding documents of what would become the United States, we fimd mention of nature's God. The religious beliefs of the founders were much debated in their time, and still are over two centuries later. Through the letters and other writings of Jefferson and others, it is possible to construct an outline of their beliefs. Although they supported the moral teachings of Jesus, they believed in a creator similar to the God of deism. In the tradition of deism, they based their Gods on reason, and rejected revealed religion. That is a God that I can identify with. And so did the signers of the Declaration of Independence- as affirmed by their signatures.

The signers of the Declaration of Independence were affirming their equal national station that the laws of nature and of nature's God entitled them.

And every time someone says something regarding their faith, you start crying again about how they are cramming their religion down your throat when that's simply not the case.

No, that is not correct. Only as someone expresses that their faith and their God is superior to all others and should be universally recognized as superior to others' faith do I challenge them about projecting that imagined superiority onto the larger society.

So you cry about that while at the same time you're the one trying to shove your Marxist views on everyone else and I'm here to tell you that dog ain’t hunting.

Now you are trying to equate "Marxist views"- whatever that means- with omniscient or superior Gods.

But (1) I am no more trying to shove "Marxist views" onto anyone any more than you are trying to shove Corporatism views onto us, and (2) I was born into a world of Marxist-Corporate hybridization. Like you and most everyine else, I strive to find the best mix of those two well established political and economic philosophies- neither of which I expect to fall into oblivion any time soon. But if you want to do away with the government's direct sponsorship of Corporatism via government charters- without which Corporatism would not exist- then I am willing to do away with the reins on Corporate Socialism, reins that you whine about as "Marxist views".

Then we could all join Cato and become social anarchists, and start all over again.

So whiner, heal thyself first.

That's a nice rant. Of course you're full of crap but it's a nice rant indeed.

You're trying to confuse the founding fathers beliefs regarding a national religion and promoting religion with their personal beliefs but I’m not letting you get by with it.

Just because they didn't want to promote a national religion didn't mean they did not believe in God Jehovah. Jefferson, for all of his writing, was a Christian at the core. He just believed that was between him and his God and was no one else’s business.

As usual, you are wrong.

As for you challenging anything, all you're doing is spouting your opinion and as I've told you before, as no one made you the God boss, all you’re doing is expressing your opinion and I’ll give you three guesses as to what you can do with those. Just remember, the first two don't count.

Anyone that discusses the topic for more then 2 minutes can see your a Marxist to the core. You can spout the garbage about corporate socialism and that's the reason for your belief but do you really think you're fooling anyone with that bullshit? You're as hard core as Joseph Stalin ever was and we both know it. You've just found a way that you think you can disguise what you actually believe.

The way I see it though, if one has to hide their true beliefs as you do, then your convictions are severely lacking and you're beliefs aren’t nothing but hot air.

Just because they didn't want to promote a national religion didn't mean they did not believe in God Jehovah. Jefferson, for all of his writing, was a Christian at the core. He just believed that was between him and his God and was no one else’s business.

And I would agree with Jefferson on that. My 5th grade teacher didn't. Like so many wannabe official regilious indoctinartors, she used her government granted authority over students in her charge to offer gold stars to students who demonstrated the "correct" religion in the way she deemed best.

It was 50 years ago. Get over it and move on.

Aaron wrote:It was 50 years ago. Get over it and move on.

Ah, but her desperately over-zealous regilious descendents, with their most un-Jefferson philosophy of authoritarian regilious indoctrinations, are still at it today. The price of religious freedom is eternal vigilance of wannabe religious authoritarians.

Bullsh!t. That's your excuse for you continued whining on the subject.

Heal thyself first, Comrade Whiner!

Is that all you have Frank?

Sad.

To keep up with you, it's all I need. Yes, sad.

ziggy wrote:
Cato, just like you, I am an anarchist. So pedal your garbage somewhere else.

I've seen anarchists sir and you are no anarchist. As I have said we wouldn't be having this discussion if people really understood the meaning of liberty. But No, instead people insist on using government to get their way and force it on others. You and Terry are prime example of people who out of one side their mouth proclaim liberty but their actions speak authoritarian.

But No, instead people insist on using government to get their way and force it on others.

Well, if you want to go back a couple hunderd years and erase all the laws- make the whole nation like the old wild west and start over, then OK. I can be as much of an anarchist as you want to be.

But by the time I was born this nation already had nearly 200 years of "people using government to get their way". So I didn't accept the status quo of government enforced racial segregation, government enforced "morality", government going to war on political whims and lies, government enforced Corporatism and Corporate socialism, and government enforced religious indoctrination and persecution in the nation's public schools, among other areas where government was used by some to, as you say, "get their way and force it on others."

I did not invent social authoritarianism. Like you, I was born into it. But if we are going to have it, then I will use my meager influence to try to affect having that social authoritariansim be as nearly fair and just as I think it can be made to be.

Somehow I have a hunch that the Cato's who whine the most about "using government to get their way and force it on others" didn't have much a problem with it as long as it was women and blacks and Jews and homosexuals and other politically unempowered groups who were the "others" having someone else's way forced on them. But as the Catos of America come nearer and nearer to becoming a political minority, suddenly they are awakened to the realization that becoming part of the the authoritarian victims groups may not as pleasant as being a part of the authoritarian oppressor groups.

I need to find me waders. The shit's really running deep in here.

ziggy wrote:

But No, instead people insist on using government to get their way and force it on others.

Well, if you want to go back a couple hunderd years and erase all the laws- make the whole nation like the old wild west and start over, then OK. I can be as much of an anarchist as you want to be.

But by the time I was born this nation already had nearly 200 years of "people using government to get their way". So I didn't accept the status quo of government enforced racial segregation, government enforced "morality", government going to war on political whims and lies, government enforced Corporatism and Corporate socialism, and government enforced religious indoctrination and persecution in the nation's public schools, among other areas where government was used by some to, as you say, "get their way and force it on others."

I did not invent social authoritarianism. Like you, I was born into it. But if we are going to have it, then I will use my meager influence to try to affect having that social authoritariansim be as nearly fair and just as I think it can be made to be.

Somehow I have a hunch that the Cato's who whine the most about "using government to get their way and force it on others" didn't have much a problem with it as long as it was women and blacks and Jews and homosexuals and other politically unempowered groups who were the "others" having someone else's way forced on them. But as the Catos of America come nearer and nearer to becoming a political minority, suddenly they are awakened to the realization that becoming part of the the authoritarian victims groups may not as pleasant as being a part of the authoritarian oppressor groups.

Buddy, that is just more of the same. I have not once even remotely suggested that anything I believe be forced on any other person. You on the other hand fully support using the force of law to compel me to participate in policy and activity to which I disagree. You talk a good fight, but you sir, certainly don't walk it. You Ziggy, are nothing more than a hypocrit. A really large one.

Additionally, sir, if you want all I have ever said is that I will not rent or sell a home to an unmarried couple, an adulterous couple, or a homosexual couple. I have not said I would not do business with homosexuals, I have not said they are less than human, and I have not once said anything hateful or hate filled about them. I don't condone what they,homosexuals or adutlers or unmarried couple, do and I will not be forced to be a party to their actions, just as you as you told me you would not lead to a deadbeat. I have not ever even remotely suggested the law be used to force my view on others. Yet, You have called me a bigot. You have taken what I gave said twisted and made a lie of it. I have to agree with Aaron, a person needs hipboots on the board, because you make it really deep.

Cato, Ziggy's rant is nothing more then window dressing to hide his marxist views. That's all. Nothing more. In his mind, if the proletariat is not in charge, then the government should be. And as such, they can push any view they choose.

Buddy, that is just more of the same. I have not once even remotely suggested that anything I believe be forced on any other person. You on the other hand fully support using the force of law to compel me to participate in policy and activity to which I disagree. You talk a good fight, but you sir, certainly don't walk it. You Ziggy, are nothing more than a hypocrit. A really large one.

Well, at least your conscience has been piqued, Cato.

But I can remeber here when you raised 9 kinds of hell because the Courts told school districts and school employees that they could not use the schools to force their religious views onto students.

You have cited case after case to lambast the Courts for putting the Bill of Rights ahead of someone or other using the government- especially government schools- to force his or her views onto other people

You were OK with the schools proselytizing to students, but you expressed outrage that parents would appeal to the Courts to stop such proselytzing and that the Courts would agree.

You are OK with the heavy hand of the law being used to force some things- just not the things you disagree with.

And you dare to call me a hypocrit. Hypocrit, heal thyself first.