Ivy League Morons

SamCogar wrote:

ziggy wrote: Sam, you know a different Ziggy than anyone who really knows me knows.

So psychoanalyst wannabe, heal thyself first.

Get a clue Ziggy.

Birds of a feather flock together.

The few that you think "really" know you, .... don't know any more about you than you do.

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And so what qualifies a common nincompoop like SamCogar to venture such psychic pontifications?

Ziggy,

Reread the thread. You're complaining about the inaccuracies and deficiencies in public schools in the teaching of history.

So am I, and I'm doing something about it.

Aaron wrote:Granted, I've been out of school for 25 years now but I don't recall any sanitized version of Columbus founding America. What I recall was that Europe was facing overcrowding issues which led to disease, hunger, death and overall troubles for the continent and many explorers set out to discover new land to combat those problems as well as looking for a new path to trade by heading west over the ocean instead of east over land, which could take years to make the round trip voyage.

What sanitized version are you referring to?

Sounds like you've been versed in the "sanitized version" quite well.

When did they teach you about Columbus being a trader in native Americans as slaves? And scientists and others in the know had realized for 1500 years or more before Columbus that the world was round. They even knew its demensions to a quite close degree.

Evidence of slavery predates written records, and has existed to varying extents, forms and periods in almost all cultures and continents.

slavery

Slavery has been around since humans have been around and you're not telling my anything I don't already know. It was an accepted practice in the late 15th century when Columbus came to America, just as it was throughout history.

And it is certainly not something he invented as he was acting within the guidelines of his contract with Spain.

"that of all and every kind of merchandise, whether pearls, precious stones, gold, silver, spices, and other objects and merchandise whatsoever, of whatever kind, name and sort, which may be bought, bartered, discovered, acquired and obtained within the limits of the said Admiralty, Your Highnesses grant from now henceforth to the said Don Cristóbal [Christopher Columbus] ... the tenth part of the whole, after deducting all the expenses which may be incurred therein."

source

So is it your contention that because Christopher Columbus acted within the accepted guidelines of his time that we as a nation should not remember his discoveries?

""that of all and every kind of merchandise, whether pearls, precious stones, gold, silver, spices, and other objects and merchandise whatsoever, of whatever kind, name and sort, which may be bought, bartered, discovered, acquired and obtained within the limits of the said Admiralty, Your Highnesses grant from now henceforth to the said Don Cristóbal [Christopher Columbus] ... the tenth part of the whole, after deducting all the expenses which may be incurred therein."

And just which of the above kinds of "merchandise" covers human beings who were captured, bound, and transported against their will to a foreign nation thousands of miles away to be slaves?

You have to ask?

So is it your contention that because Christopher Columbus acted within the accepted guidelines of his time that we as a nation should not remember his discoveries?

If those were the "accepted guidelines of his time", why were and are Americans so thoroughly brainwashed about certain of his "discoveries", and yet so unschooled in the what became the object in all but perhaps the first of Columbus' trips to the Americas- trafficking in human beings for the purpose of slavery?

Why are we so reluctant to educate Ameriicans in ALL the "accepted guidelines of his time"?

It was his first trip that led to others coming here, which eventually led to the colonization of America.

Does subsequent trips and/or actions change that fact?

Aaron wrote:You have to ask?

Why not ask?

Aaron wrote:It was his first trip that led to others coming here, which eventually led to the colonization of America.

Does subsequent trips and/or actions change that fact?

You chose to dwell on "that fact"? Is that only only important "fact" that sprang forth from the voyages of Columbus.

Students are taught that Columbus' crews made four voyages to the Americas- the apparent purposes of which the 2nd, 3rd and 4th voyages are whitewashed.

So what's your point?

Does what Columbus did on those subsequent voyages make his first voyage any less remarkable or historically important? I don't think so.

Speaking of whitewashed.......I attended public schools from Kindgergarten until I graduated high school. (OK there was the semester at St. Patrick's High School) In the 6th grade our social studies book and all the work we did was exclusively about what was then called "black studies". NEVER ONCE in all those years of public education was I ever taught that African tribal leaders sold their people into slavery to the Europeans. NEVER ONCE was I told or did I read anything about African parents selling their children to European slave traders. I learned about that as an adult.

That happened, a lot, yet for some reason the Smithfield Public School District found it necessary to conceal that fact from its students. That was no oversight, that was deliberate. Just as the minimizing of the horror inflicted on southerns during Reconstruction.

ziggy wrote:Why are we so reluctant to educate Ameriicans in ALL the "accepted guidelines of his time"?

Why didn't you ask your Father that question?

Or why don't you ask the current crop of Educators, they are the one responsible for what the students are being taught?

Or ask yourself why you didn't learn much of anything during your time spent in school.



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Stephanie wrote:So what's your point?

Does what Columbus did on those subsequent voyages make his first voyage any less remarkable or historically important? I don't think so.

Speaking of whitewashed.......I attended public schools from Kindgergarten until I graduated high school. (OK there was the semester at St. Patrick's High School) In the 6th grade our social studies book and all the work we did was exclusively about what was then called "black studies". NEVER ONCE in all those years of public education was I ever taught that African tribal leaders sold their people into slavery to the Europeans. NEVER ONCE was I told or did I read anything about African parents selling their children to European slave traders. I learned about that as an adult.

That happened, a lot, yet for some reason the Smithfield Public School District found it necessary to conceal that fact from its students. That was no oversight, that was deliberate. Just as the minimizing of the horror inflicted on southerns during Reconstruction.

Something else you were never told either is that Slavs means slave. There were as many whites as blacks that faced slavery. Additionally something else you were never told or will never be told is that the peace loving religion still supports and condones slavery. Slavery still exists in the middle east and some african nations. Funny how the racebaiters in this nation skip over those facts.

ziggy wrote:Students are taught that Columbus' crews made four voyages to the Americas- the apparent purposes of which the 2nd, 3rd and 4th voyages are whitewashed.

Students are also taught that the New Deal saved America and that FDR was one of our greatest Presidents but I bet you don't have a problem with that garbage, do you Ziggy.

Compared to that horseshit of a lie, what is taught about Columbus is minuscule.

Hell, you could take all the lies and garbage that is taught in public schools, double it and you still wouldn't equal that garbage taught about America from 1929 through 1944.

Students are also taught that the New Deal saved America and that FDR was one of our greatest Presidents but I bet you don't have a problem with that garbage, do you Ziggy.

What students are taught that at school? I wasn't.

You didn't attend Poca HS with the social studies teacher who tells anyone who will listen, "FDR saved the nation."

There are a lot of history teachers just like him across the country and have been for decades.

ziggy wrote:

Students are also taught that the New Deal saved America and that FDR was one of our greatest Presidents but I bet you don't have a problem with that garbage, do you Ziggy.

What students are taught that at school? I wasn't.

Well DUH, and you accuse me of psychobabble. From my above post, to wit

Or ask yourself why you didn't learn much of anything during your time spent in school.

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If one would like to read a more factual account of colonial US history, then they should purchase this CD, to wit:

The Sir William Johnson Papers – History of the Mohawk Valley – 1738-1808

I once had a set of said 14 volumes which was given to me by my sister-in-law who had purchased them at auction. I only managed to read a small portion of them before there was a “change” in my “plans”.

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ziggy wrote:So that excuses Colombus, and excuses the woefully incomplete "American history" about Colombus and other European invaders of North and South America taught in American schools?

Perhaps it was "woefully incomplete" when you were taking American History, but I guarantee you that any basic college history textbook is heavy on the sins of America and light or absent on the sins of the Indians.

It is the same way down south, where the Aztecs and the Nahuatl language are celebrated by liberal whites. Of the Aztec gods you had those who demanded human sacrifices in the most insidious of ways.

Back north, smallpox, although a horrible thing, was hardly something that Columbus was planning on bringing to the Indians, and although there are isolated stories of smallpox infected blankets, there is no evidence at all that this was a common activity, the great majority of deaths from smallpox being unintentional.

And as for slavery, slaves were taken and sold by Indians AND Africans.

Ziggy is right that our education is woefully inadequate on past events, but he is wrong on just how.

I find it fascinating that liberal whites feel the need to condemn ourselves for slavery that ended 144 years ago but are doing nothing about slavery occurring today.

Except perhaps a spineless UN resolution threatening intense negotiations if it doesn't stop!

SheikBen wrote:I find it fascinating that liberal whites feel the need to condemn ourselves for slavery that ended 144 years ago but are doing nothing about slavery occurring today.

Except perhaps a spineless UN resolution threatening intense negotiations if it doesn't stop!

It is fascinating isn't it. It is also very hypocritical.

What Ziggy also fails to mention is that Indians were enslaving other Indians for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before Columbus ever set foot on North America.

And the slaves that Columbus took back to Spain were captured by other Indian tribes and sold or traded for goods from Europe.

It wasn’t all peace and harmony, sharing a coke and crying at garbage before Chris came along as Zig would want us to believe.

Aaron wrote:What Ziggy also fails to mention is that Indians were enslaving other Indians for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before Columbus ever set foot on North America.

And the slaves that Columbus took back to Spain were captured by other Indian tribes and sold or traded for goods from Europe.

It wasn’t all peace and harmony, sharing a coke and crying at garbage before Chris came along as Zig would want us to believe.

Yea, you hit the nail on the head. If you listen to Ziggy and other racebaiters, you would think that the only people who ever enslaved anyone was white anglo saxon protestants. Nothing can be further from the truth. Blacks have been enslaving people for thousands of years, Indians enslaved other tribes, Yes, whites enslaved blacks as well as whites. As I pointed out, the European word "slav" means slave. Further, this nation had black slave owners. Funny how the Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons, and other racebaiter lefties never mention that little fact.

Another issue the racebaiters never mention, was exposed by Sheik. Slavery still happens today. The peaceful religion of islam allows slavery. Slavery is still a part of many African nations. Funny how Al and Jesse never mention that little fact either.

It wasn’t all peace and harmony, sharing a coke and crying at garbage before Chris came along as Zig would want us to believe.

Why would Zig want you to believe that? Why don't you focus on what I've actually said rather than on something else that I didn't say?

What Ziggy also fails to mention is that Indians were enslaving other Indians for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before Columbus ever set foot on North America.

And I suppose you have read all that in the written history the Indians maintained about it for all those hundreds, if not thousands, of years, before Columbus, right?