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Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away

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Post by ziggy Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:18 am

The fundamental problem in the Middle East is not a degenerate and corrupt Islam. The fundamental problem is a degenerate and corrupt Christendom. We have not brought freedom and democracy and enlightenment to the Muslim world. We have brought the opposite.

We have supported a government in Israel that has carried out egregious war crimes in Lebanon and Gaza and is daily stealing ever greater portions of Palestinian land. We have established a network of military bases, some the size of small cities, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Kuwait, and we have secured basing rights in the Gulf states of Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates. We have expanded our military operations to Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Egypt, Algeria and Yemen. And no one naively believes, except perhaps us, that we have any intention of leaving.

We have used the iron fist of the American military to implant our oil companies in Iraq, occupy Afghanistan and ensure that the region is submissive and cowed.

Iranians do not need or want us to teach them about liberty and representative government. They have long embodied this struggle. It is we who need to be taught. It was Washington that orchestrated the 1953 coup to topple Iran’s democratically elected government, the first in the Middle East, and install the compliant shah in power. It was Washington that forced Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh, a man who cared as much for his country as he did for the rule of law and democracy, to spend the rest of his life under house arrest. We gave to the Iranian people the corrupt regime of the shah and his savage secret police and the primitive clerics that rose out of the swamp of the dictator’s Iran. Iranians know they once had a democracy until we took it away.


http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090622_iran_had_a_democracy_before_we_took_it_away/
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Post by Cato Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:12 pm

Yea, that's the ticket, blame America for every ill that infects the world.

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Post by Stephanie Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:57 pm

Cato,

Are you trying to deny US installation and support of dictators and oppressors in the Muslim world? The Shah of freaking Iran........remember him? How about Sadam Genocide Hussein? What about Israel and the US funded ethnic cleansing of the holy land?

Get real!
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Post by Cato Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:48 pm

Stephanie wrote:Cato,

Are you trying to deny US installation and support of dictators and oppressors in the Muslim world? The Shah of freaking Iran........remember him? How about Sadam Genocide Hussein? What about Israel and the US funded ethnic cleansing of the holy land?

Get real!

Sweetie I know what the US has done in the past and I am well aware of things it has done recently. I find most it dispicable to be honest. What I find just as dishonoest and equally dispicable are those who have to blame this nation for everything that happens in other nations no matter what. Yes, we meddled in Iran, but the thing is we aren't meddling now and we haven't done so since the Islamic Revolution there. Did we cause the mess we see today? No. If you want to blame someone for what is happening there NOW, blame the ruling council and the pro-amidemijab (spelling) militas, but don't blame us.

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Post by Stephanie Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:26 pm

Cato,

I disagree with you. US foreign policy is largely responsible for the rise of the current regime. In addition, our government's policies in the Middle East since the fall of the Shah have increased stress and tension in Iran. Iran does not exist in a vacuum.

That isn't to say I don't believe those in power in Iran for the past 30 years are without blame. Of course they are. That does not make "us" guiltless.
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Post by Keli Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:07 am

If you could save a life--no matter other's malpractice, would you?
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Post by SamCogar Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:14 am

Stephanie wrote:Cato,

Are you trying to deny US installation and support of dictators and oppressors in the Muslim world? The Shah of freaking Iran........remember him? How about Sadam Genocide Hussein? What about Israel and the US funded ethnic cleansing of the holy land?

Get real!

YEAH, what about all of our own nefarious, corrupt, dishonest, amoral politicians that were once supported, admired and elected to public office by tens of thousands and/or tens of millions of voters?

Our at-home track record of installation and support of nefarious characters is 1,000 times worse than our foreign track record.

Let me tell you the story about Louie the Bridgebuilder ......... one of these days. lol!

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Post by SamCogar Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:26 am

ziggy wrote:
Iranians do not need or want us to teach them about liberty and representative government. They have long embodied this struggle. It is we who need to be taught. It was Washington that orchestrated the 1953 coup to topple Iran’s democratically elected government, the first in the Middle East, and install the compliant shah in power. It was Washington that forced Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh, a man who cared as much for his country as he did for the rule of law and democracy, to spend the rest of his life under house arrest. We gave to the Iranian people the corrupt regime of the shah and his savage secret police and the primitive clerics that rose out of the swamp of the dictator’s Iran. Iranians know they once had a democracy until we took it away.

Now that all of you have read and posted comments on Ziggy's posted propaganda ...... take a few minutes and read the Facts of the Matter.


Mohamed Shah - The British and Soviet authorities constrained constitutional government and permitted Reza Shah's son, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi to succeed to the throne on September 16, 1941. Mohammad Reza Shah wanted to continue the reform policies of his father, but a contest for control of the government soon began between the young Shah and a the nationalistic Mohammad Mosaddeq

In January 1942 Britain and Russia signed an agreement with Iran to respect Iran's independence and to withdraw their troops within six months after the end of the war. In 1943 Tehran Conference U.S. reaffirmed this commitment. In 1945, the USSR refused to announce a timetable to leave Iran's northwestern provinces of East Azerbaijan and West Azerbaijan, where Soviet supported autonomy movements had developed. The USSR withdrew its troops in May 1946; this episode was one of the harbingers of the emerging Cold War.

Iran's political system began to mature. Political parties were organized, and the 1944 Majlis election were the first genuinely competitive elections in over 20 years. Foreign influence and interference remained very a sensitive issue for all parties. The Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC), owned by the British government, continued to extract and market Iranian oil. At the end of the war, Iranians began to demand nationalization of the oil industry, a demand that became the centerpiece of Iranian nationalism.

Despite his vow to act as a constitutional monarch who would defer to the power of the parliamentary government, Mohammad Reza Shah increasingly involved himself in governmental affairs and opposed or thwarted strong prime ministers. Prone to indecision, however, Mohammad Reza relied more on manipulation than on leadership. He concentrated on reviving the army and ensuring that it would remain under royal control as the main power base of the Monarchy. In 1949 the Tudeh communist party was banned after an assassination attempt on the Shah, and the Shah's powers were expanded.

Rise and Fall of Mosaddeq - In 1951, the Iranian Parliament voted to nationalize the oil industry, then controlled by Britain. Legislators backing the law elected its leading advocate, Dr. Mohammad Mosaddeq, as prime minister following the assassination of his predecessor. Britain responded with threats and sanctions. However, Britain could not persuade the USA, under the Truman administration to take any action at the time. Mosaddeq was an aging and eccentric academic, immensely popular because of his stands for the common people. He was a nationalist, and not a communist, though the Tudeh (communist) party supported him for a time. Nonetheless, the British and US governments were eventually able to persuade themselves that Mosaddeg was about to align Iran with the USSR.

Dr. Mosaddeg took a very inflexible positions, and was unable to compromise with Britain, which won the support of the major oil companies in imposing an effective global boycott on Iranian oil.

Dr. Mosaddeq became an anti-imperialist hero to the developing world. His eccentricities, which became his trademark, included conducting business in bed dressed in pajamas, weeping publicly and frequent complaints about poor health. Raised by a wave of popularity, Mosaddeq showed signs of demagoguery and dictatorial government. When the Shah refused his demand for control of the army forces in 1952, Dr. Mosaddeq resigned. He was reinstated in the face of popular riots as he very probably knew he would be. Next he conducted a national referendum to dissolve parliament.

By 1953, General Eisenhower had become president of the US. Anti-communist hysteria was reaching its peak. An Iranian general offered to help in overthrow Mosaddeq, and the British were able to persuade the American CIA to go ahead with the coup in August. With very scant resources and a shoe-string operational plan, the CIA set out to remove Mosaddeq. The plan almost failed, and the Shah, never very resolute, had fled to Baghdad and had to be enticed to continue playing his part from there. The army was loyal to the Shah and Mosaddeq was overthrown and arrested. This coup earned the USA and Britain the lasting hatred of large sectors of Iranian public opinion, uniting communists, nationalists and Shi'ite clericalists behind enmity to foreign meddling. Mosaddeq became a folk hero of Iranian nationalism.

In the context of regional turmoil and the Cold War, the Shah established himself as an indispensable ally of the West. In the Middle East, Iran stood out as one of the few friends of Israel, a friendship that allegedly extended to Israeli help in running the SAVAK, the hated Iranian secret service. Domestically, he advocated reform policies, culminating in the 1963 program known as the White Revolution, which included land reform, the extension of voting rights to women, and the elimination of illiteracy.


These measures and the increasing arbitrariness of the Shah's rule provoked both religious leaders who feared losing their traditional authority and intellectuals seeking democratic reforms. These opponents criticized the Shah for violation of the constitution, which placed limits on royal power and provided for a representative government, and for subservience to the United States. The Shah saw himself as heir to the kings of ancient Iran. In 1967 he staged an elaborate coronation coronation ceremony, styling himself "Shah en Shah" - King of Kings. In 1971 he held an extravagant celebration of 2,500 years of Persian monarchy. In 1976 he replaced the Islamic calendar with an "imperial" calendar, which began with the foundation of the Persian empire around 500 BC. These actions were clearly aimed at sidelining the Islamic religion, and excited the opposition of Muslim groups, which rallied around the Ayatollah Khomeini.

The Shah suppressed and marginalized opponents with the help of Iran's security and intelligence organization, the Savak, using arbitrary arrest, imprisonment, exile and torture, and exciting profound and widespread discontent. Islamic leaders, particularly the exiled cleric Ayatolah Khomeini, channeled this discontent into a populist Islamist ideology. This ideology was spread through cassettes smuggled into Iran. Suffering ill health The Shah left Iran on January 16 1979, following widespread rioting. He announced that he was leaving for an eighteen month leave of absence. He had appointed Shapour Bakhtiar as Prime Minister. Shapour Bakhtiar was unable to keep order with the help of Supreme Army Councils. Inexplicably, Bakhtiar not only allowed the Ayatollah Khomeini to return to Iran, but publicly invited him to return.

Khomeini - Ayatollah Khomeini to returned to Iran on February 1. Bakhtiar had invited the means of his own destruction. He soon went into hiding, and was eventually exiled in Paris. Mass purges of supporters of the Shah began, and hundreds were executed. A revolutionary court set to work almost immediately in a school building in Tehran. Revolutionary courts were established in provincial centers soon after. The Tehran court passed death sentences on four of the Shah's generals on February 16, 1979 and all four were executed by firing squad . More executions, of military and police officers, SAVAK agents, cabinet ministers, Majlis deputies, and officials of the Shah's regime followed.

http://www.mideastweb.org/iranhistory.htm

And now you should know why Ziggy posted his AgitProp.

Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away 49761 Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away 49761 Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away 49761 Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away 49761 Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away 49761 Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away 49761 Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away 49761


.

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Post by ziggy Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:53 pm

Either way, it is the same basic happenings.

Shorter Ziggy version:

It was Washington that orchestrated the 1953 coup to topple Iran’s democratically elected government, the first in the Middle East, and install the compliant shah in power. It was Washington that forced Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh, a man who cared as much for his country as he did for the rule of law and democracy, to spend the rest of his life under house arrest. We gave to the Iranian people the corrupt regime of the shah and his savage secret police and the primitive clerics that rose out of the swamp of the dictator’s Iran. Iranians know they once had a democracy until we took it away.

Longer SamCogar version:

An Iranian general offered to help in overthrow Mosaddeq, and the British were able to persuade the American CIA to go ahead with the coup in August. With very scant resources and a shoe-string operational plan, the CIA set out to remove Mosaddeq. The plan almost failed, and the Shah, never very resolute, had fled to Baghdad and had to be enticed to continue playing his part from there. The army was loyal to the Shah and Mosaddeq was overthrown and arrested. This coup earned the USA and Britain the lasting hatred of large sectors of Iranian public opinion, uniting communists, nationalists and Shi'ite clericalists behind enmity to foreign meddling. Mosaddeq became a folk hero of Iranian nationalism.

These measures and the increasing arbitrariness of the Shah's rule provoked both religious leaders who feared losing their traditional authority and intellectuals seeking democratic reforms. These opponents criticized the Shah for violation of the constitution, which placed limits on royal power and provided for a representative government, and for subservience to the United States. The Shah saw himself as heir to the kings of ancient Iran. In 1967 he staged an elaborate coronation coronation ceremony, styling himself "Shah en Shah" - King of Kings. In 1971 he held an extravagant celebration of 2,500 years of Persian monarchy. In 1976 he replaced the Islamic calendar with an "imperial" calendar, which began with the foundation of the Persian empire around 500 BC. These actions were clearly aimed at sidelining the Islamic religion, and excited the opposition of Muslim groups, which rallied around the Ayatollah Khomeini.

The Shah suppressed and marginalized opponents with the help of Iran's security and intelligence organization, the Savak, using arbitrary arrest, imprisonment, exile and torture, and exciting profound and widespread discontent. Islamic leaders, particularly the exiled cleric Ayatolah Khomeini, channeled this discontent into a populist Islamist ideology. This ideology was spread through cassettes smuggled into Iran. Suffering ill health The Shah left Iran on January 16 1979, following widespread rioting. He announced that he was leaving for an eighteen month leave of absence. He had appointed Shapour Bakhtiar as Prime Minister. Shapour Bakhtiar was unable to keep order with the help of Supreme Army Councils. Inexplicably, Bakhtiar not only allowed the Ayatollah Khomeini to return to Iran, but publicly invited him to return.

Ziggyprop; SamCogarProp- same coin, two sides.
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Post by ziggy Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:04 pm

Cato wrote:
Stephanie wrote:Cato,

Are you trying to deny US installation and support of dictators and oppressors in the Muslim world? The Shah of freaking Iran........remember him? How about Sadam Genocide Hussein? What about Israel and the US funded ethnic cleansing of the holy land?

Get real!

Sweetie I know what the US has done in the past and I am well aware of things it has done recently. I find most it dispicable to be honest. What I find just as dishonoest and equally dispicable are those who have to blame this nation for everything that happens in other nations no matter what. Yes, we meddled in Iran, but the thing is we aren't meddling now and we haven't done so since the Islamic Revolution there. Did we cause the mess we see today? No. If you want to blame someone for what is happening there NOW, blame the ruling council and the pro-amidemijab (spelling) militas, but don't blame us.

Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
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Post by Keli Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:46 pm

ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:
Stephanie wrote:Cato,

Are you trying to deny US installation and support of dictators and oppressors in the Muslim world? The Shah of freaking Iran........remember him? How about Sadam Genocide Hussein? What about Israel and the US funded ethnic cleansing of the holy land?

Get real!

Sweetie I know what the US has done in the past and I am well aware of things it has done recently. I find most it dispicable to be honest. What I find just as dishonoest and equally dispicable are those who have to blame this nation for everything that happens in other nations no matter what. Yes, we meddled in Iran, but the thing is we aren't meddling now and we haven't done so since the Islamic Revolution there. Did we cause the mess we see today? No. If you want to blame someone for what is happening there NOW, blame the ruling council and the pro-amidemijab (spelling) militas, but don't blame us.

Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.


Do you mean Jimmy Carter vis-a-vis Obama? (Obama is troubles by the Honduran coup. Why is it that O always comes down on the side of communists and dictators?)
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Post by ziggy Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:49 pm

The U.S. has been coming down on the side of dictators for many decades.

What "communists" are you talking about.
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Post by Cato Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:19 am

ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:
Stephanie wrote:Cato,

Are you trying to deny US installation and support of dictators and oppressors in the Muslim world? The Shah of freaking Iran........remember him? How about Sadam Genocide Hussein? What about Israel and the US funded ethnic cleansing of the holy land?

Get real!

Sweetie I know what the US has done in the past and I am well aware of things it has done recently. I find most it dispicable to be honest. What I find just as dishonoest and equally dispicable are those who have to blame this nation for everything that happens in other nations no matter what. Yes, we meddled in Iran, but the thing is we aren't meddling now and we haven't done so since the Islamic Revolution there. Did we cause the mess we see today? No. If you want to blame someone for what is happening there NOW, blame the ruling council and the pro-amidemijab (spelling) militas, but don't blame us.

Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

Obviosuly your reading comprehension stinks. As I said if you want to blame someone for what is happening there NOW, you can blame the islamic ruling council and the camel jockey they have as a president.

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Post by ziggy Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:09 am

And so, Sweetie, the U.S. bears no responsibility for the several decades long chain of events that put these latest nincompoops in power?
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Post by Cato Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:11 am

ziggy wrote:And so, Sweetie, the U.S. bears no responsibility for the several decades long chain of events that put these latest nincompoops in power?

As I said, the past is the past since you are to thick to comprehend yes the US meddled in affair it didn't belong. However, that is in the past. That fact remains that The people of Iran are responsible for the government they have today.

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Post by ziggy Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:18 pm

Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:And so, Sweetie, the U.S. bears no responsibility for the several decades long chain of events that put these latest nincompoops in power?

As I said, the past is the past since you are to thick to comprehend yes the US meddled in affair it didn't belong. However, that is in the past. That fact remains that The people of Iran are responsible for the government they have today.

And if they changed it today, what reason do the people of Iran have to think that the U.S. wouldn't take it away from them again?

It's not like the U.S. turned over a new leaf and gave up nation building at the end of the 20th century, you know.
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Post by SamCogar Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:09 am

ziggy wrote:The U.S. has been coming down on the side of dictators for many decades.

And just why are you bitching about that?

Your socialist demands are little more than a want of "dictatorial power" by the clueless to tell everyone how to live.

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Post by ziggy Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:23 pm

And just why are you bitching about that?

I'm not. That was my reply to Keli, who said:

Why is it that O always comes down on the side of communists and dictators?)

It is the American way to come down on the side of dictators.
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Post by Cato Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:16 pm

ziggy wrote:
And just why are you bitching about that?

I'm not. That was my reply to Keli, who said:

Why is it that O always comes down on the side of communists and dictators?)

It is the American way to come down on the side of dictators.

Seems now it's the great black messiah's way, doesn't it. Yes, sir that change we can believe in.

By the way Ziggy, coming down on the dictator's side is the democratic and republican leaderships way. It is not the American way.

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Post by ziggy Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:41 pm

Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:
And just why are you bitching about that?

I'm not. That was my reply to Keli, who said:

Why is it that O always comes down on the side of communists and dictators?)

It is the American way to come down on the side of dictators.

Seems now it's the great black messiah's way, doesn't it. Yes, sir that change we can believe in.

By the way Ziggy, coming down on the dictator's side is the democratic and republican leaderships way. It is not the American way.

Yes it is the American way, and it has been for longer than you and I have lived. American is known by what it does- whether or not Ziggy or Cato thinks what it does is right or wrong.
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Post by Cato Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:29 pm

ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:
And just why are you bitching about that?

I'm not. That was my reply to Keli, who said:

Why is it that O always comes down on the side of communists and dictators?)

It is the American way to come down on the side of dictators.

Seems now it's the great black messiah's way, doesn't it. Yes, sir that change we can believe in.

By the way Ziggy, coming down on the dictator's side is the democratic and republican leaderships way. It is not the American way.

Yes it is the American way, and it has been for longer than you and I have lived. American is known by what it does- whether or not Ziggy or Cato thinks what it does is right or wrong.

So then EVERY American is an imperialist? Is that what you are saying? If you are by the way, you are wrong. Personally speaking I really don't care what happens in any other nation. If I could work my will there would be absolutely no foreign aide including humanitarian aide. Additionally we would never enter into an arms limitation agreement or treaty nor would we have troops on foreign soil. So far as I'm concerned the rest of the world could rot.

Now if you want to believe all Americans are imperialists go ahead, but it is the freaks in Washington that should be facing your wrath, not the average citizen. Then again, maybe you don't have the guts to place blame where it is due, at the feet of the politicians.

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Post by ziggy Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:40 pm

Cato wrote:So then EVERY American is an imperialist? Is that what you are saying?

No. Lots of things are the American way- including American foreign policy. That does not mean that every American believes in that policy.

If it took unanamity for something to be the American way, then nothing would be done by the American way.

The "American way" is, pure and simply, how America conducts itself. And for decades and scores of years America has supported one dictator after another world wide.
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Post by ziggy Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:26 am

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."- Samuel P. Huntington
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Post by Cato Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:11 am

ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:So then EVERY American is an imperialist? Is that what you are saying?

No. Lots of things are the American way- including American foreign policy. That does not mean that every American believes in that policy.

If it took unanamity for something to be the American way, then nothing would be done by the American way.

The "American way" is, pure and simply, how America conducts itself. And for decades and scores of years America has supported one dictator after another world wide.

Well, I'll tell you what Bozo, you call it the American way if you want, but you take a face away from the real criminals here and that is the politicians who buy their way into office. You are alot like those that want to blame "they". Who the world are "they". "They" are real people with real names, not some phantom that is here for a bit and then suddenly gone. The same is true with your "American Way". The American Way is a creation of the politicans both democrat and republican who have practiced meddling in the affairs of other nations for years. It isn't the American way, it is the political way, a way of convienence and reassuance of reelection.

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Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away Empty Re: Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away

Post by Cato Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:16 am

ziggy wrote:
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."- Samuel P. Huntington

Well isn't that just special. I haven't a clue who Sammy Huntington is, but it appears he's just one more of the blame the US for every ill the world has known, gang. Simply he's appears to be a jerk and idiot.

Yes, the US government has made and still makes mistakes, but as evidenced by private giving, it is also the most benevolent nation of people on earth. I guess that doesn't figure into Sammy's or your view of the people of this nation. That's what pisses me off about people like you and Sammy H. You have no problem looking at the mistakes that are made, but you never ever acknowledge the good that people have accomplished.

Cato

Number of posts : 2010
Location : Behind my desk
Registration date : 2007-12-28

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Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away Empty Re: Iran Had a Democracy Before We Took It Away

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