What should we do about bin Laden?

I totally disagree. The US regularly ignores and defies UN treaties and resolutions. This government also refuses to sign major treaties negotiated by the UN, like the treaty banning cluster bombs. Anti-American sentiment is already pretty darn high. Our actions in the UN contribute to that.

Maybe, maybe not. I do believe Eurpoeans are tired of taking a back seat to America economically. I think we're we to withdrawl form the world politics, it would hasten there conversion away from American parts and supplies.

Maybe, maybe not. I do believe Eurpoeans are tired of taking a back seat to America economically. I think we're we to withdrawl form the world politics, it would hasten there conversion away from American parts and supplies.

That won't happen much longer. The Euro is hard and European companies are buying our water.

WV-American Water Company ring any bells?

Heck they are even buying our roads.

Indiana and Pa turnpikes for starters.

But like it or not we are headed toward more globalization not less.

When you are holed up here in wv it is harder to comprehend.

If I could take you in the truck a couple weeks and just let you observe you would start seeing the big pitcher steph...

Right, they're buying everything from our water to our roads and I should worry that if we withdraw from the UN they're going to stop buy everything from us?

They won't. We haven't stopped buying from China despite the brutal communist regime's deplorable human rights record and we haven't stopped importing from nations who let children toil away for 12 hours in dangerous factories either.

They're not going to stop buying from us because we finally decide our sovereignty isn't up for negotiation.

TerryRC wrote:Maybe, maybe not. I do believe Eurpoeans are tired of taking a back seat to America economically. I think we're we to withdrawl form the world politics, it would hasten there conversion away from American parts and supplies.

That won't happen much longer. The Euro is hard and European companies are buying our water.

WV-American Water Company ring any bells?

I didn't say companies TC. I was referring to manufactured parts and machinery. Last year alone, nuclear reactors, boilers parts and machined goods accounted for over half our 1.2 Trillion dollars in exports.

I didn't say companies TC. I was referring to manufactured parts and machinery. Last year alone, nuclear reactors, boilers parts and machined goods accounted for over half our 1.2 Trillion dollars in exports.

That seems high, but I'll take your word for it.

How many trillions did we spend on cheap Chinese crap and Japanese and Korean cars?

There is every evidence our economy is headed for the crapper. Why? Because we built ourselves up as a huge exporter of goods, made our might and then rested on our laurels and became big consumers of imports and users of credit.

We need to learn to pay as we go.

I thought I posted a link but I can't find the link or the page. This isn't the page I found but if you scroll about half way down, it list total exports at $1.3 trillion. And we still have a massive trade deficit.

TerryRC wrote:There is every evidence our economy is headed for the crapper.

RIGHT you are.

TerryRC wrote:Why? Because we built ourselves up as a huge exporter of goods, made our might ....

HORSEPUCKY, wrong on that one. That's like saying "Any measure of success guarantees failure".

TerryRC wrote:..... and then rested on our laurels .....

HORSEFEATHERS, ...... iffen you are meaning "everyone" when you say "our laurels".

TRC, if you limit "our laurels" to only include the "troughfeeders" ...... then I will agree.

TerryRC wrote:..... and became big consumers of imports and users of credit.

Terry, not so much "became" ....... but become, ......."forced to become".

TerryRC wrote:We need to learn to pay as we go.

TRC, .... AGAIN, .... if you limit the "We" to only include the "troughfeeders" ...... then I will agree.

But for the rest of us ....... we don't need to "learn" that, ..... because the government(s) DEMAND we do it .................... and that is the PRIMARY reason we have become "big consumers of imports and users of credit".

GEEEZUS .... TRC, ..... iffen the "working producers" could charge all their taxes and government fees on a "credit card" and pay as little on it as they wanted to or when they get the extra money ..... then they would have enough spendable ca$h to be buying "American Made" consumer goods.

But since government taxes and fees are so much, .... and MUST BE PAID AS WE GO, ........ then purchases of cheaper imports and use of credit to purchase said becomes necessary.

cheers

Terry, not so much "became" ....... but become, ......."forced to become".

Bull.

I have an acquaintance that works for Wells-Fargo and she helps people to consolidate their debt.

There are people out there with a 150K mortgage and 90K in credit card debt. These people buy wide-screen TV's and Hummers at 17% interest. Wouldn't a 14 inch standard set and a used Chevy have done just as well?

Go ahead and blame it on the public employees though. It is easier and more PC than calling the majority of your fellow citizens stupid greedbags.

I raise a family of four on 31k per annum, gross. I own my property (even if it is an old single-wide on an acre of woods), both of my twenty year old vehicles and the only debt I have is college loans.

Nobody is forced into 90K of credit card debt, Sam.

As an aside, the key to a happy marriage is to pay cash or do without.

Well to gently guide us back to the thread topic, so far the vote is 100% against the Bush republican policy.

They believe we do have a legitimate interest in apprehending Obama and bringing him to Justice.

But not in the continuing occupation of Iraq, where we are still throwing $3 billion per week down a rathole.

And putting our young men out on the streets of Baghdad with a big target painted on their back.

This is one issue where I agree totally with Obama.

We need to go get bin Laden and kill him or, preferably, bring him here for a show trial and a public hanging.

(I dont generally support Capital Punishment, but make an exception in this instance).

TerryRC wrote:Terry, not so much "became" ....... but become, ......."forced to become".

Bull.

I have an acquaintance that works for Wells-Fargo and she helps people to consolidate their debt.

There are people out there with a 150K mortgage and 90K in credit card debt. These people buy wide-screen TV's and Hummers at 17% interest. Wouldn't a 14 inch standard set and a used Chevy have done just as well?

TRC, and just how many homeowners are there in WV that have acquired a 150K mortgage and 90K in credit card debt?

I'll tell you, ...... not very damn many, .... if any.

And I'll tell you why big boy, the equivalent $200K - $300K homes w/$150K mortgages that are being bought in California, New Jersey, etc. ....... can be bought in WV for $30K - $80K .... w/20K to $60K mortgage on them.

TerryRC wrote:Go ahead and blame it on the public employees though. It is easier and more PC than calling the majority of your fellow citizens stupid greedbags.

Well TRC, then tell us why you don't think that government taxes, expenditures, services, wages and benefits ...... affects the prices of properties, cost of doing business and wages paid to employees of said businesses.

TerryRC wrote:I raise a family of four on 31k per annum, gross. I own my property (even if it is an old single-wide on an acre of woods), both of my twenty year old vehicles and the only debt I have is college loans.

Nobody is forced into 90K of credit card debt, Sam.

HA, do you have any idea what that "acre of woods" is worth in California?

TerryRC wrote:As an aside, the key to a happy marriage is to pay cash or do without.

HA, ..... and that is why people like me want a "divorce" from the public employers such as you work for.

.

shermangeneral wrote:Well to gently guide us back to the thread topic, so far the vote is 100% against the Bush republican policy.

They believe we do have a legitimate interest in apprehending Obama and bringing him to Justice.

But not in the continuing occupation of Iraq, where we are still throwing $3 billion per week down a rathole.

And putting our young men out on the streets of Baghdad with a big target painted on their back.

This is one issue where I agree totally with Obama.

We need to go get bin Laden and kill him or, preferably, bring him here for a show trial and a public hanging.

(I dont generally support Capital Punishment, but make an exception in this instance).

YADA, ..... YADA, .... YADA, .....

And just what the hell do you think getting bin Laden would accomplish, Sherman?

I mean other than a few Democrat Lawyers making a few MILLION$$ off the government by defending him in the Courts.

You silly Democrats, ...... going after ben Laden is like going after the oil companies or suing OPEC because of the high oil prices.

Don't be weazelwording me Shermmy, ...... such Democrat "actions" are only being touted ....... to reinforce and/or maintain your "support base" of dummies.



.

"...And just what the hell do you think getting bin Laden would accomplish, Sherman?..."

Ever heard of a concept called j u s t i c e , Sam?

Owell, nevermind.....

SamCogar wrote:

TerryRC wrote:Terry, not so much "became" ....... but become, ......."forced to become".

Bull.

I have an acquaintance that works for Wells-Fargo and she helps people to consolidate their debt.

There are people out there with a 150K mortgage and 90K in credit card debt. These people buy wide-screen TV's and Hummers at 17% interest. Wouldn't a 14 inch standard set and a used Chevy have done just as well?

TRC, and just how many homeowners are there in WV that have acquired a 150K mortgage and 90K in credit card debt?

I'll tell you, ...... not very damn many, .... if any.

And I'll tell you why big boy, the equivalent $200K - $300K homes w/$150K mortgages that are being bought in California, New Jersey, etc. ....... can be bought in WV for $30K - $80K .... w/20K to $60K mortgage on them.

TerryRC wrote:Go ahead and blame it on the public employees though. It is easier and more PC than calling the majority of your fellow citizens stupid greedbags.

Well TRC, then tell us why you don't think that government taxes, expenditures, services, wages and benefits ...... affects the prices of properties, cost of doing business and wages paid to employees of said businesses.

TerryRC wrote:I raise a family of four on 31k per annum, gross. I own my property (even if it is an old single-wide on an acre of woods), both of my twenty year old vehicles and the only debt I have is college loans.

Nobody is forced into 90K of credit card debt, Sam.

HA, do you have any idea what that "acre of woods" is worth in California?

TerryRC wrote:As an aside, the key to a happy marriage is to pay cash or do without.

HA, ..... and that is why people like me want a "divorce" from the public employers such as you work for.

.

You need to get out of Burnsville once in a while.

I live in rural Putnam County. It never ceases to amaze me the startling number of McMansions out here. You drive around and you see these monoliths all over the hills and the backroads. Now I will grant you the land is cheaper, but that house that costs $300K to build in Cali or Jersey is still going to run you $290K right out here in WV.

It's mind numbing. Many of these monuments to greed and avarice sit on only an acre or two of land, mind you. Hell, Sammy.......you don't have to drive up into the hills to see this either. There is one neighborhood that comes to mind right on the Kanawha River, I guess that's Winfield over there, or many the next town on down, with these very upscale homes sitting on postage stamp lots. Some of them, I swear to you, the neighbors could probably shake hands across the strip of land, or maybe driveway between the two. This is right on Rte 35. I suppose the difference is the price of land is probably higher due to the close proximity of the river, so the lots are smaller and the homes aren't quite so opulent. I'm sure Aaron and Hyper know where I'm talking about.

You're only fooling yourself if you're thinking a lot of those "owners" aren't up to their eyeballs in debt. Landsakes, I don't even wanna think about it.

All of Winfield and Teays Valley is like that Stephanie. I know couples that purchase $200K homes in Winfield and put up thousand dollar curtains over the windows to hide their lawn furniture, which is all they can afford because they have a $2,000 per month mortgage.

That more then anything is what is wrong with our ecomony. People buying more house then they can afford. I say let them lose them and let the banks eat them as that's what they all deserve.

Sherm, how many lives is this justice you feel we need so badly worth?

Lawn furniture reminds me of my former in-laws. My former MIL left her husband for her now husband decades ago. They owned 2 tenement houses....one was all rental, the other where they lived on the first floor.

He got the one they lived in and she got the other. She sold the one she got and purchased US Savings bonds with the proceeds, every nickle.

Her new husband left his wife and preteen kids for another woman and was probably lucky to walk away with anything more than the clothes on his back. This was in 1972.

Anyway......they didn't have any money (other than her bonds which she wouldn't touch) so they rented a furnished apartment saving every penny they could. ASAP they purchased a new mobile home and planted it on a lot in a park for older adults, no kids allowed. They lived with lawn furniture until they could purchase living room furniture without touching her bonds. lol

Stephanie wrote:

You (Sam) need to get out of Burnsville once in a while.

I live in rural Putnam County. It never ceases to amaze me the startling number of McMansions out here. You drive around and you see these monoliths all over the hills and the backroads. Now I will grant you the land is cheaper, but that house that costs $300K to build in Cali or Jersey is still going to run you $290K right out here in WV.

It's mind numbing.

Stephanie, your mind hasn't yet began to be .... numbed, .... until you read the following citings ....... and the last one is the bestest of the "nummers".

compared building a house in the Sacramento, Ca area vs. Charlotte, NC.

I don't know where in CA you are planning to build (nor what size or style house), but Sacramento & Charlotte are comparable cities and I am very familiar with Charlotte.

I used the following options on the calculator:, #2 (good quality), forced air heat & AC, 500 sq ft attached garage, 1- Zero-clearance insulated prefab metal fireplace with brick face, outside the metro area & not in a tract.
Here are the results:


Charlotte: Subtotal Direct Job Costs (Does not include: Permits & Utilities, Insurance, Plans & Specs, Final cleanup, Builder’s Markup (Profit), nor Land.

Material: $75,578.00
Labor: $45,491.00
Equip: $2,622.00
Total: $123,691.00

Sacramento: (Same criteria)

Subtotal Direct Job Costs
Material: $76,296.00
Labor: $90,906.00
Equip: $2,839.00
Total: $170,041.00

A difference of $46,350!...all in the "labor"! I was surprised!

http://www.byoh.com/californiabuilding.htm

Building Permits - Building a House ….. in California

Buying Land & Building a Home
Before you spend much time looking for land to buy, first do a little research to find out what costs and steps have to be take before the actual construction. You may decide it is worth more to buy an existing home and make personal modifications.
Many first time home builders think you just buy a lot and get some building permits and
start building. Not so, there are a number of steps and issues one has to consider before
applying for building permits.

When buying land, you need to check the zoning to see if a home can be built on it.
If it is zoned for residential, one must consider if it can be hooked up to sewer and water or is capable of supporting a septic system and well.

Septic systems generally cost $5,000-$10,000.
Wells can cost $15,000-$40,000, depending on the depth, location and the need for a secondary pressure tank.

Building in an unincorporated area usually requires a secondary pressure tank for the required interior fire sprinklers. Then there is the cost of bringing in other utilities such as electricity, propane tanks and phone lines.

Certain areas in the county require a "Perq Test" to determine if the site is suitable for the required septic system. This involves digging a hole about 10 feet deep and waiting a few days to determine if the ground water rises to the point where a septic system would contaminate it.
This test can only be done during the rainy season which generally ends in April.
Grading a lot can be a major cost of building a home. Many lots are priced seemingly low because the high cost of grading and site preparation in order to build.
Obtaining a loan on land is not as easy as getting a loan for buying a house.
Buying raw land, lenders typically require 50% down usually with a shorter term and
a higher rate of interest.
Once these steps are taken the next stop is the local planning department.
The following information was derived from materials provided by the cities of
Morgan Hill and Gilroy and should be considered as only a guideline.
Contact the City for the most up to date information.
Follows are some of the steps necessary to complete the process of building a home.

Advanced Review Group
This group, consisting of a Planner, an Engineer, a Plan Review Technician and the Fire Marshal, meets with the project owner and his/her staff at their request, prior to the submission of any application, to discuss the process for that particular project.
This optional meeting is designed to result in both the owner and the City having an understanding about the nature and scope of the project, the steps required in the process, an approximate time frame in which the project can be completed and an approximation of the fees which will be charged.

Land Use Applications
Land use applications are processes such as General Plan Amendments, Zoning Changes, inclusion in the Urban Service Area, Residential Development Ordinance applications, Tentative Map applications, Conditional Use permits, and Architectural and Site Reviews. One or more of these applications may be necessary on some developments.

Environmental Review
Certain projects, because of their size or potential impact, may require an environmental review. This determination is based on rules of the California Environmental Quality act.

Development Review Group
The Development Review Group meets every week to discuss all applications received in the past week. This group consists of members of each Division within the City organization which has responsibility for any part of the development process.
The group reviews Architectural and Site Review applications. It will also review preliminary plans in order to help the applicant identify any problem areas prior to a full submission of an application. In many cases, this results in a significant time savings for both the applicant and the City, allowing us to reduce your costs as well as the fees we must charge to recover our costs.

Sewer Allocations
Additional or new allocations for sewer capacity are granted by the Engineering Division in accordance with policies set by the City Council.

Utility Connections
Connections to water, sewer and storm drainage systems are handled by the Engineering Division. Engineering also reviews all infrastructure plans associated with new development and inspects the work.

Parcel Maps
Parcel maps are required in order to split lots and for subdivisions of less than five lots.

Building Permits and Inspection
Building permits are generally required for any building or construction involving any plumbing, electrical, mechanical, or structural alterations.
The Uniform Building Code states that a permit is required for all new construction, demolition, remodeling, improving, removing, repairs, or moving of all buildings or structures.
Regardless of the type of occupancy, a permit is required for additions, swimming pools, hot tubs, spas, decks over 30" above grade, carports, sheds over 120 sq. ft. of roof area, skylights, covered patios and walkways, retaining walls, bathroom and kitchen remodeling, termite repairs, reroofing, solar panels and most interior and exterior remodeling work. Permits are also required for plumbing, electrical, and heating and cooling work.
When work is done without a permit, the permit fees will be doubled, the completed work may have to be dismantled or uncovered to provide access for inspection.

Who May Apply for a Permit?
Property owners or licensed contractors may apply for a building permit.
The person signing for the permit must declare they have no employees, or they must show proof of a valid Workers' Compensation Insurance policy before a permit
can be issued.

General Permit Requirements
For new construction, additions and most remodeling, complete plans are required.
All plans must include the name and address of the architect, engineer, or other person preparing the plan.
Energy calculations are required and must be incorporated into the plans.
Generally 3 or 4 sets of plans are required to be submitted.

Information Required on Drawings
A plot plan must be included in plans for any work which alters the use, exterior footprint, exterior of an existing structure, or for any new buildings.
Plot plans must show lot dimensions, front, rear and side setback distances to all property lines and existing buildings.
Indicate all easements and underground utility lines.
Show locations and sizes of proposed and existing water, sewer, gas and electric meter.
Floor plans must show dimensions and the location of all walls, plumbing fixtures, doors, windows, appliances, kitchen counter, furnace and water heater.
All electrical fixtures and locations must be indicated.
Framing plans must indicate the sizes of floor joists and girders, ceiling joists and roof rafters. If you are using main beams, trusses or any unconventional framing, calculations must be submitted.
Four exterior elevations are required which show windows, doors, skylights and architectural finish features. Heights of buildings must be indicated to show compliance with zoning regulations.

Engineered Plans
If you are constructing a new building or addition on a hillside, engineered footings are required, with soils and geology reports to substantiate all design assumptions. Calculations shall be submitted in two copies with the designers wet signature and stamp. Structures in the residential hillside zone must have noncombustible roofing and be fire sprinklered.

How Much Will it Cost?
Building permit fees are based on a proportion of the total construction cost, including all labor and material involved in the proposed work.
A plan check fee is assessed at a percentage of the building permit fee.
Plumbing, electrical and mechanical permit fees are based on the actual work done, such as how many receptacles, sinks, etc.
Where applicable, all site development fees, parks development fees, public safety fees
and school impact fees, mitigation fees and water meter hook-up fees must be paid prior
to permit issuance.

http://www.realestatehelp.com/ScottMitchener/BuildingPermits.html

So, it remains to be seen if the CBIA will attack environmental and planning laws again. If they do, they will be particularly brash given what has happened since July of 2005 when the bubble started to burst. In the aftermath of their record profits, developers all over the State are leaving building permits on the table, not wanting to bring more units into a very slow market. I guess I can’t blame them – if I was a builder, I would bring yet another 2,800 square foot home for $600,000 into the market today?

http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2007/09/will_the_califo_1.html

Just the Right to Build a House in California Can Cost $200,000

July 30, 2007 - The following originally appeared in the July 20, 2007 Modesto (California) Bee.

So you want to build an "affordable" house?

Well, I know that we all hope that housing can be affordable. Whether we are in the market for a new home to live in, for our kids, or simply for the employees and customers of the various businesses in which we are involved, affordability is a big item these days.

Last month I drove from Dallas to Austin, Texas (about the same distance as between Modesto and Bakersfield), and noted numerous billboards by national builders, all advertising new homes in the neighborhood of 1,600 square feet. Prices ranged from a low of $99,999 to around $130,000. Certainly that would count as "affordable" around here.

Perhaps we can aim to keep the price below $200,000 - say $199,500; surely, we could call that an "affordable" house.

OK, we have defined our target; now, let's start building. First we need a lot, ready to build on.

Good luck in finding one. I don't know where you can get a construction-ready lot in a desirable neighborhood around here. But just for the sake of argument, let's assume you do find one.

Best-case scenario is that the lot is going to run you at least $125,000. Even if you got lucky and settled for a marginal neighborhood, you will be in for at least $100,000. (Nearly all lots are controlled by merchant builders, who acquire lots in blocks of 50 to 100; they pay the above price for lots they buy in quantity - a price you can't duplicate for a single lot.)

Now we start adding the "soft costs," which include architectural plans and engineering (which will be required before you can get a building permit), interest and loan costs (assuming you are not paying cash), construction insurance, etc. Let's figure this at $10,000, although that would be very low - it would probably be far more for an individual builder.

We found our lot; we finished our plans; our game plan is set. Now all we have to do is obtain our building permit. So we go to the counter at the city (or county) public works department, checkbook in hand. Here is where the horror story really kicks in.

The check you will write for "development impact fees" is, depending on where you are building:

Oakdale: $53,741

Modesto: $57,659

Patterson: $90,000 to $105,000 (depending on differing conditions on the specific subdivision map)

And what do you get for that? Well, you get a chance to submit your plans.

So (sigh), let's add it up. Our "affordable house" in Patterson is now up around $200,000; in Oakdale it is nearly $164,000 and in Modesto $167,659.

Wait just a minute! What is missing in this picture?

Well, what's missing is any shred of construction. Yep, what you get for the above numbers is simply the right to build. No foundation, no framed walls, no electrical or plumbing, no nails. Nothing but the "right to build."

http://www.nahb.org/news_details.aspx?newsID=5100

You're only fooling yourself if you're thinking a lot of those "owners" aren't up to their eyeballs in debt. Landsakes, I don't even wanna think about it.

Save your breath to cool your oatmeal.

You can't tell Sam anything.

The agency I work for is actually allowed for in our State Constitution and I help protect WV Agriculture, you know, the food we eat.

To Sam, that makes me a welfare recipient. I'm the fault that our economy is in the crapper, not the spending habits of his fellow citizens.

An auto manufacturer with a high school diploma makes 3-5 times what I do but the greed of us public employees is what caused those GM plants to close...

He won't even debate anymore, he just ad homs me. Personally, I think it is because he couldn't land "one of them cushy state jobs". Fox and grapes, etc.

I could have worked for industry and made double or triple what I make now. I took the job with the state because I wanted to make a difference and do something important. Anyplace in this country is just two missed meals away from revolution. I'd like to try and help us avoid that.

The downside is dealing with the Sam Cogars of the world. Luckily I grew up around blowhards and am used to them.

Terry,

I recognize the work you do for the citizens of WV is very valuable. It is sometimes difficult for those of us not in the public sector to remember there are many dedicated employees working to make life better for us all.

I think this is due to the public face of WV State Employees. Take a trip to the DMV office in Teays Valley! The first person you encounter will tell you that you don't have whatever documentation required whether you do or not. If you do, and you try to point this out to her, she will deny it, berate you, and try to send you home with your tail between your legs. This has happened to my family 3 out of 4 trips to that office. Sadly, you must get beyond her to move on to the very nice and capable people who actually issue registrations and licenses etc. The DMV needs to do something about that situation.

In addition, in this state there appears to be an abundance of nepotism. Those of us without the connections required to obtain a degree without doing the course work, or an appointment without the education and experience required, sometimes get a bit disgruntled when we pick up the paper or turn on the local news and read and hear about it without end.

I'd just like a level playing field.

Stephanie wrote:I think this is due to the public face of WV State Employees. Take a trip to the DMV office in Teays Valley! The first person you encounter will tell you that you don't have whatever documentation required whether you do or not. If you do, and you try to point this out to her, she will deny it, berate you, and try to send you home with your tail between your legs. This has happened to my family 3 out of 4 trips to that office.

You must be talking about the lady wiht the short black hair that looks like a bull dyke. I can't stant that #itch.

Stephanie wrote:Sadly, you must get beyond her to move on to the very nice and capable people who actually issue registrations and licenses etc. The DMV needs to do something about that situation.

There is 1 person down that that I have encountered that shouldn't be deported to the worst third world country we can find. The rest are pathetic. That are rude, beligerent and arrorgant. And people wonder why people view state employees as they do.

LOL

You've got the woman nailed, Aaron. That is so funny.

The others we have dealt with have all been very helpful and nice. Perhaps we've just been lucky.

In addition, in this state there appears to be an abundance of nepotism. Those of us without the connections required to obtain a degree without doing the course work, or an appointment without the education and experience required, sometimes get a bit disgruntled when we pick up the paper or turn on the local news and read and hear about it without end.

I know. I see it too.

I got my job based on my credentials and some unique experience with biting flies, of all things. As a yankee with no friends or family, nepotism wasn't getting me in.

There is 1 person down that that I have encountered that shouldn't be deported to the worst third world country we can find. The rest are pathetic. That are rude, beligerent and arrorgant. And people wonder why people view state employees as they do.

Well judging a whole group by some of the members is "arrorgant", also.

If you ever have an insect or plant problem, give us a call at Guthrie. You will be treated well and we don't charge, either.

Perhaps you could go spray whatever it is you spray at the DMV. They need it.

I've put three kids behind the wheel of vehicles in the past 3 years. I've dealt with so many people down there and observed interactions with others so my view is based on experience, not arrorgance. My 16 year old failed his drivers test the first time because, in the words of the lady who gave him the test, "He only stopped for 2 seconds. You have to stop for between 5 to 8 seconds."

I stand by my statement.