Limbaugh & Robertson: "I wish you to hell"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PEaWUduCM&feature=player_embedded

ziggy wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PEaWUduCM&feature=player_embedded

This is one of the few times that I agree with Olberman. However, I wonder why there is not criticism for the Muslim's stoic insallah "it's god's will"--attitude.

If you're going to post Oberman it should come with a warning. He's the one person that I actually believe is WORSE then Limbaugh.

I do not agree with Olberman, and I am sick of Christians who will not defend Robertson. I rarely disagree with Keli, but here it goes.

Evangelical Christians know that God is sovereign and is in control of the world. God can, at any time, choose for an earthquake not to occur, a tornado not to occur, a tsunami not to occur. While one cannot blithely say that earthquakes are a result of God's punishing a particular area, it is the Biblical reality to which Keli and Sheik both adhere that this world is fallen because of sin. Without sin, no earthquakes. Evangelical Christians should be agreed on this. Mainliners obviously not.

Jesus says that those who died in the tower of Siloam were no greater sinners than anyone else, but also that if we do not repent, we will likewise perish. The Bible is replete with instances, at the same time, of tragedy coming upon a nation whose leaders (not necessarily the individuals, who are qutie often "innocent") act evilly. We know the legacy of not only the slave rebellion but of the Duvaliers as well.

Was Robertson right that Haiti is cursed? It is the poorest country in the western hemisphere and has suffered under the most miserable of conditions. While I do not think God is punishing the Haitians for the acts of their founders, I do not see it out of the question, and we surely reap the benefits of the godly founders of the United States.

If Robertson is wrong, let him be wrong. His Operation Blessing is feeding the hungry in Haiti. But Haiti IS a cursed place. A fly-over that includes neighboring DR shows graphically just how desolate the land is. Was it cursed by God, or cursed by man? I'd say the latter, but as a Christian who believes in the Sovereignty of God, I will not rule out the former.

Keli,

There has been suffering of 'innocents' and the destruction of church buildings, just as Jeremiah was not exempted from the fall of Israel. the book of Lamentations shows Jeremiah's angst after God judged his nation.

Why do you think God treats nations so very differently today? Do you deny that our nation has been blessed because "our God is the Lord" (Ps 93) or at least was?

For others looking on, I realize this makes me look extreme, but I intend this to be an intra-necine debate of sorts because Keli and I are somewhat unique here in that we take the Bible literally. For those of you who don't, Robertson's statements are obviously befuddling at best. I should like to know Keli's reasoning for condemning Robertson with Olberman.

As a mere spectator, I have a question.

At the very least, don't you think Robertson has displayed an incredible amount of arrogance? Do you think that Pat Robertson knows "the will of God"?

He's an ass, Michael. I view him as just another charlatan living high on the hog by fleecing the common folk.

Hi Steph,

I welcome all to this particular fray, I just wanted to take a shot at Keli:)

I think Robertson may well know the will of God. He also may not. If he doesn't, and he is being presumptuous, I have no doubt he will "get his."

There is much with which I disagree with Mr. Robertson. I do not think that sending in money to a ministry, even a righteous one, is going to make me rich. I do not think that people who are not healed from calamity are somehow less righteous necessarily than those who are.

What I know is this, Robertson said something that is in keeping with the Scriptures. He may well be wrong, but Bible-believing Christians cannot just rule out what he says here as blindly as many are doing. And when this man's charity, which despite his own personal excesses is a legitimate one, is so often on the scene helping, I think people should hesitate before joining the "I Hate Robertson" hallelujah chorus.

SheikBen wrote:Keli,

There has been suffering of 'innocents' and the destruction of church buildings, just as Jeremiah was not exempted from the fall of Israel. the book of Lamentations shows Jeremiah's angst after God judged his nation.

Why do you think God treats nations so very differently today? Do you deny that our nation has been blessed because "our God is the Lord" (Ps 93) or at least was?

For others looking on, I realize this makes me look extreme, but I intend this to be an intra-necine debate of sorts because Keli and I are somewhat unique here in that we take the Bible literally. For those of you who don't, Robertson's statements are obviously befuddling at best. I should like to know Keli's reasoning for condemning Robertson with Olberman.

Robertson is a pompous, charismatic tongue-speaking, self-aggrandizing heretical ass who had the insensitivity to use the suffering of people to make a point. Rush is wrong to politicize any action or motive in trying to save the poor victims of this earthquake. Politics can wait until victims are pulled from beneath collapsed buildings.

So do you think that God judges nations?

SheikBen wrote:So do you think that God judges nations?

Yes...but He has no delight in the death of the wicked.

I agree with that, do you think Robertson was displaying delight in the death of the wicked?

Just as you and I receive the blessings of this nation's godly founding, even though we do not deserve it, I see no reason why others suffer for their nations' ungodly founding, even though they do not deserve it.

In the end, we know that God will make everything right. In the meantime, we suffer under the consequences of sin, of our own and others. The Haitians are suffering more than we are.

SheikBen wrote:I agree with that, do you think Robertson was displaying delight in the death of the wicked?

Just as you and I receive the blessings of this nation's godly founding, even though we do not deserve it, I see no reason why others suffer for their nations' ungodly founding, even though they do not deserve it.

In the end, we know that God will make everything right. In the meantime, we suffer under the consequences of sin, of our own and others. The Haitians are suffering more than we are.

If the Lord marked iniquity, who, or what nation, could stand?

Yes...but He has no delight in the death of the wicked.

Do what I say or I'll fucking smack you.

God needs some parenting lessons.

SheikBen wrote:I do not agree with Olberman, and I am sick of Christians who will not defend Robertson.

Why should Christians defend Robertson any more than they should defend Olberman?

Was Robertson right that Haiti is cursed? It is the poorest country in the western hemisphere and has suffered under the most miserable of conditions. While I do not think God is punishing the Haitians for the acts of their founders, I do not see it out of the question, and we surely reap the benefits of the godly founders of the United States.

So is Washington DC spared destruction by earthquake because the founders were godly?

Hi Ziggy,

I do not put that out of the realm of possibility.

Surely you are concerned that our actions will doom our progeny, yes? Why is it so unreasonable that good actions would bless them, even down to many generations? I am blessed because of a grandfather who was not only a Christian of great integrity but an incredibly hard worker as well.

Christians claim to believe in a Sovereign God. I surely do. If God is sovereign then we have to take seriously the reality of tragedy in the world. Were those in Haiti any worse sinners than those in DC? No, but unless we all repent, we will likewise perish.

I'm not sure that Robertson busted out his phat theological skills at just the right time, but the casual way in which many have dismissed the possibility that a nation can be cursed by God is similarly alarming to me. If as Christians we believe that God pays attention, and at least as far as Abraham went, "blessed those that blessed him and cursed those that cursed him," we should not casually dismiss the possibility that God brings judgement upon nations.

Now, of course TerryRC will reject this idea, because he does not believe in a sovereign God. But Christians, however, at least in theory, do.

Now, of course TerryRC will reject this idea, because he does not believe in a sovereign God. But Christians, however, at least in theory, do.

Do you presume to speak for all Christians?

The Apostle and Nicene Creeds indicate that God is in control. I'm not suggesting that I have it all figured out. I am rather suggesting that Christians too easily dismiss the real problem of why evil happens in the world.

SheikBen wrote:The Apostle and Nicene Creeds indicate that God is in control. I'm not suggesting that I have it all figured out. I am rather suggesting that Christians too easily dismiss the real problem of why evil happens in the world.

Is God in control of good, or evil, or of both?

Exactly, Ziggy. Nothing can happen unless God allows it, and that includes earthquakes.

Exactly, Ziggy. Nothing can happen unless God allows it, and that includes earthquakes.

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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

-Epicurus

Ziggy and TerryRC,

I might not understand why bad things happen. I might be caused to question the wisdom and goodness of God, as well. However, I find my faith--with all its questions--more comforting than your philosophy that there is absolutely no reason at all to the absolutely random happenings in life.

I have recently been diagnosed with prostate cancer. It is a moderately aggressive form of cancer. I am going to have surgery to remove my prostate--and then, if necessary, have radiation. I know that some will find a karma justice in this news. Yet, many of those people believe that there is no purpose to anything. How sad.

I believe two things: Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. And, secondly, Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him...

I have recently been diagnosed with prostate cancer. It is a moderately aggressive form of cancer. I am going to have surgery to remove my prostate--and then, if necessary, have radiation. I know that some will find a karma justice in this news. Yet, many of those people believe that there is no purpose to anything. How sad.

You malign me. Where have I ever said that there is no purpose to anything?

We make our own purpose. Nothing else is necessary.

Sorry about the cancer. I have never, unlike people like Robertson, wished ill-will upon someone merely because I disagreed with them.

TerryRC wrote:I have recently been diagnosed with prostate cancer. It is a moderately aggressive form of cancer. I am going to have surgery to remove my prostate--and then, if necessary, have radiation. I know that some will find a karma justice in this news. Yet, many of those people believe that there is no purpose to anything. How sad.

You malign me. Where have I ever said that there is no purpose to anything?

We make our own purpose. Nothing else is necessary.

Sorry about the cancer. I have never, unlike people like Robertson, wished ill-will upon someone merely because I disagreed with them.

The Haitians made the earthquake?

Armon Ayers wrote:Ziggy and TerryRC,

I might not understand why bad things happen. I might be caused to question the wisdom and goodness of God, as well. However, I find my faith--with all its questions--more comforting than your philosophy that there is absolutely no reason at all to the absolutely random happenings in life.

I have not and do not suggest that life is punctuated with "random happenings" for which "there is absolutely no reason at all". Indeed, I see quite predictable order (or reason, if you like) to almost all of the "happenings" of life, even- as with your faith- even with all its questions. That you or I may or may not find our faiths comforting has little to do with the other happenings of life- other than for the "happenings" going on within our own psyches.

I have recently been diagnosed with prostate cancer. It is a moderately aggressive form of cancer. I am going to have surgery to remove my prostate--and then, if necessary, have radiation. I know that some will find a karma justice in this news. Yet, many of those people believe that there is no purpose to anything. How sad.

I see no "karma justice" nor any other kind of justice in this unfortunate news about your health. But if it somehow gives you comfort, despite my denial, for you to think that somehow maybe I do pervertedly see "justice" there, then I would not want to deny you that comfort. It does not cost me much for you to believe that, and it is a cost I am willing to glady endure for your comfort.

I believe two things: Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. And, secondly, Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him...

I am truly sorry to learn of your prostate cancer. In the past two weeks two of my friends, after biopsy, were diagnosed as having "benign" prostate problems. I dearly wish that you could have been the 3rd. May whatever gods there be help you achieve healing and find peace of mind for you and yours in your troubled days.

TerryRC wrote:Exactly, Ziggy. Nothing can happen unless God allows it, and that includes earthquakes.

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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Whence then is evil?

-Epicurus

Hi TerryRC,

God is able to use evil to ultimate good ends. We do not see the good because we are creatures who lives 110 years at the most, and eternity is a long time. God is well able to prevent and destroy evil, and one day I am confident that He will do so.

I do not presume to speak for God, but I submit that a lot of what we experience, for which we have no explanation, would make more sense if we knew more. A friend of mine had a dad who denied prematurely of a heart attack. She only later learned that her father was also suicidal and the premature heart attack may well have prevented a suicide.

The Bible says that "blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord." It is therefore in keeping with Scripture that a nation can be blessed by righteousness and faith, and the corollary, while less certain, is that the nation whose God is not the Lord will not be blessed. Does God punish nations? If you believe the Bible, the answer is yes. Of course, just as Jeremiah went off with the rest of Judah, so too are the righteous swept away with the ungodly. An individual Haitian is altogether likely to be kinder, more Christ-like, and what have you than an indivdual American. That does not mean that, again, if someone believes the Bible, that they can give assume that God wasn't passing judgement on Haiti.

Now this isn't a cardinal matter for me. There are, as a friend of mine has noted, tectonic plates that go crazy every so often. God could, however, stop this, and for whatever reason, He chose not to. OF COURSE TerryRC is going to reject this concept, because like Epicurus before him, he is unconvinced that God or the gods are active in the affairs of men. But for Christians there is not this easy out.

TerryH, I am praying for you. Remember that it was Job that was righteous, not his three idiot friends:)