Re: What I believe

by Cato Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:18 pm

ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:I believe that the only legitimate functions of govenrment are:

1. To provide a defence against those who would harm liberty

2. To provide a court system that ties those who commit crimes against liberty and settles disputes against between people all based on objecive law.

3. To print and coin money based on a objective standard of measure.

And that is it.

This means that the federal government bears the responsibility of providing a military to protect the nation from foreign threats to liberty and life. The states and local government provide a police force to protect people from criminals who threaten life, property, and liberty.

It means that the court system exists to allow a person accused of a crime a speedy trial before his peers. It means that the courts allow people to air their complaints and settle disputes. All law however, is objective, not subjective. This means that law is written in plain everyday english and are clear and concise not allow wiggle room or is subject to interpretation.

I beleive that it is not the function of the government on any level to provide retirement, healthcare, recreation, research, or eduction among other things. It is not the function of government to regulate business.

The only additional legitimate function of state and local governments would be to maintain a road system.

While is short and sweet, this what I have arrived at in my beliefs. As I have posted here and refined my views by watching what others beleive and by looking at the world today, along with studying history, this is the only conclusion I can come to.

I believe that people need to learn the following:

1. Stay out of each others business and leave each other alone.

2. This is a great nation because it allows one the oppertunity to achieve. However, achievement is not a right and one is not entitled to achievement. One earns it by working hard, making mistakes, and learning from those mistakes.

3. One is entitled nothing, one earns it.

4. A right is not a get it free card. Consider the right to keep and bear arms. The government is under no obligation to provide a weapon, you have to purchase it. Your right is the ability to purchase a weapon and keep it on your property or person.

5. The private sector can do a far far superior job of providing oppertunity than the government could ever hope to do.

This is what I beleive.

So is all this "common sense"? Or just what Cato happens to believe?

It is what I have come to believe based on the reading I have done, what I have observed happening in this nation, and what I see as what made this nation a world power.

by Cato Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:21 pm

ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:"Common sense" is not common.

Maybe not to people like you, but to the average person it is.

So everyone should think "average", should have the same "average" values, and my thinking should be the same "average" as your thinking, right? What about individual liberties to think as one pleases and to live as one pleases and to let others do likewise?

I don't care what a person thinks or does so long as it doesn't affect my liberty and they are willing to accept and deal witht he consequences of their actions.

by **ohio county** Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:10 pm

Jefferson said that the Constitution should be voided and re-approved or amended for each new generation. Of course, Jefferson said whatever the audience he was addressing wanted to hear... That's why he trashed Adams.

by Cato Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:35 am

ohio county wrote:Jefferson said that the Constitution should be voided and re-approved or amended for each new generation. Of course, Jefferson said whatever the audience he was addressing wanted to hear... That's why he trashed Adams.

Whether he said it because that is what people wanted to hear or to trash Adams is not the point. Jefferson was correct in that the US Constitution needs to be voided and rewritten for time to time.

For example - Take the commerce clause. It may have been written with good intentions, but the fact is it has been abused to the point it has hindered commerce between the states. The inability to buy and sell health insurance policies over state lines is a good example.

Another example is the misapplication of the "General Welfare Clause" which has been used to justify the Federal government, ie the politicans entering into areas they were never intended to be, again healthcare and banking come to mind.

The 14th amendment is another example. It was intended as an equal rights amendment, ie to gaurenttee all persons in this nation had the same rights as codified constitutionally. However, by the way it is written it can be used to justify items it was never intended to allow.

It is government's responsibility and duty to defend the liberties granted by our creator. It has to be by matter of necessity the duty of government to coin money based on a standard and to provide a court system where disputes are settled and the accused can confront their accuser. Outside of that government does not belong nor should it be allowed to belong.

by TerryRC Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:54 am

Whether he said it because that is what people wanted to hear or to trash Adams is not the point. Jefferson was correct in that the US Constitution needs to be voided and rewritten for time to time.

So, would you like the current bunch rewriting the COTUS?

I sure wouldn't.

by Aaron Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:58 am

TerryRC wrote:Whether he said it because that is what people wanted to hear or to trash Adams is not the point. Jefferson was correct in that the US Constitution needs to be voided and rewritten for time to time.

So, would you like the current bunch rewriting the COTUS?

I sure wouldn't.

I must say I'm with Terry on this one.

by Cato Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:44 am

Aaron wrote:
TerryRC wrote:Whether he said it because that is what people wanted to hear or to trash Adams is not the point. Jefferson was correct in that the US Constitution needs to be voided and rewritten for time to time.

So, would you like the current bunch rewriting the COTUS?

I sure wouldn't.

I must say I'm with Terry on this one.

I wouldn't either. The first thing that has to happen is the people decide whether or not they are going to retain the power of government or give it to a bunch of profession jerk water politicans. While I can't speak for another soul here, I certainly don't need a bunch of politicans to tell me what I need to do. Personally, I think we are seeing a grassroots movement of people that feel the same of me in that enough is enough.

One other thing while I'm writing, you and Terry like to complain about how things are, but when push comes to shove you seem wring your hands and point out how little can be done.

by Aaron Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:55 am

How so Cato?

by TerryRC Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:46 am

One other thing while I'm writing, you and Terry like to complain about how things are, but when push comes to shove you seem wring your hands and point out how little can be done.

I don't think the COTUS is broken - you do. Why should I do anything about that?

You are too rich, Willy.

by Cato Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:41 pm

TerryRC wrote:One other thing while I'm writing, you and Terry like to complain about how things are, but when push comes to shove you seem wring your hands and point out how little can be done.

I don't think the COTUS is broken - you do. Why should I do anything about that?

You are too rich, Willy.

Yes, I think the US Constitution is broke and I think it can't be fixed. It has been so perverted there is no way to fix it. The fact of the matter is is folks like you that want to use and have used the Constitution to taking my rights as a property owner just to make yourself feel good. The same has been done witht he right to defend one's self, justify the taking of property from one individual just to give to another individual and the list goes on.

by TerryRC Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:01 pm

The fact of the matter is is folks like you that want to use and have used the Constitution to taking my rights as a property owner just to make yourself feel good.

Gee, Willy. I'm sorry I don't support your right to treat gays like subhumans.

Did you see my post about how Obama has said that hospitals MUST allow visitation rights to the partners of gays?

That is because if Willy owned the hospital, he would deny somebody the right to hold the hand of a dying loved one because he wants to feel all righteous.

What I believe - Page 2 Fractal%2BWrongness

What I believe - Page 2 Fractal%2BWrongness

by TerryRC Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:08 pm

The same has been done witht he right to defend one's self, justify the taking of property from one individual just to give to another individual and the list goes on.

The only time I know of people's guns being taken in MY lifetime was during the Bush admin., during Katrina. Also, the Kelo decision was horrific.

Good rant, though.

So. Should we just get rid of government altogether? Good luck keeping what is yours from the mobs of people that are strong enough to take what they like. What should we replace our government with? A theocracy of baptists, perhaps.

Who is the one really wringing hands and offering no solutions? Willy is.

by Aaron Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:46 pm

Cato wrote:One other thing while I'm writing, you and Terry like to complain about how things are, but when push comes to shove you seem wring your hands and point out how little can be done.

Aaron wrote:How so Cato?

Once again, how so Cato?

by Cato Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:35 am

TerryRC wrote:
Gee, Willy. I'm sorry I don't support your right to treat gays like subhumans.

Did you see my post about how Obama has said that hospitals MUST allow visitation rights to the partners of gays?

That is because if Willy owned the hospital, he would deny somebody the right to hold the hand of a dying loved one because he wants to feel all righteous.

First, Obama, can issue all the executive orders he wants, however, the fact of the matter he doesn't have the authority to do so. This is just another example of how the parasitic politicians have far overstepped their bounds. However that seems to be what you want. As far as Willy running a hospital goes, I don't give a tinkers hoot who visits who.

As for the rest of your post, as usual you are reaching and grasping for straws, thus the bold faced lie and slander. Then again I guess when you really have no legitimate arguement, slander is all you do have.

One more time for you leftist idiots, property rights is really a matter of personal rights, it is a matter of the right to the persuit of happiness. I buy the property, I pay for the property, I pay the ilegitimate bloodsucking taxes for the the property, I darn well rent or sell to whom I please. No law, now existing or any that you leftist bozos may came up with will ever make me do otherwise.

One of the reasons, I support the voiding and rewriting of the US Constitution is to bring an end the authoritarianism of lefty do gooders like you.

by Cato Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:45 am

Aaron wrote:
Cato wrote:One other thing while I'm writing, you and Terry like to complain about how things are, but when push comes to shove you seem wring your hands and point out how little can be done.

Aaron wrote:How so Cato?

Once again, how so Cato?

Look at your own posts. I have offered you a solution to the things you complain about, like the overspending. Your reply is to state you don't want the present gaggle of idiots rewriting the Constitution. My question is what is your solution, replace the present gaggle of fools with a new gaggle of fools that will allow the same thing to happen?

by Aaron Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:29 pm

Cato wrote:
Aaron wrote:
Cato wrote:One other thing while I'm writing, you and Terry like to complain about how things are, but when push comes to shove you seem wring your hands and point out how little can be done.

Aaron wrote:How so Cato?

Once again, how so Cato?

Look at your own posts. I have offered you a solution to the things you complain about, like the overspending. Your reply is to state you don't want the present gaggle of idiots rewriting the Constitution. My question is what is your solution, replace the present gaggle of fools with a new gaggle of fools that will allow the same thing to happen?

I don’t suppose you can give me specifics of what I’ve complained about that bothers me that your ‘belief' system would solve, can you?

by ziggy Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:35 pm

Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:"Common sense" is not common.

Maybe not to people like you, but to the average person it is.

So everyone should think "average", should have the same "average" values, and my thinking should be the same "average" as your thinking, right? What about individual liberties to think as one pleases and to live as one pleases and to let others do likewise?

I don't care what a person thinks or does so long as it doesn't affect my liberty and they are willing to accept and deal witht he consequences of their actions.

You will never be satisfied, Cato, until everyone accepts YOUR prediction or your determination of what the consequences of their actions are or should be. But the consequences of our actions are not necessarily what Cato thinks they are, nor what Cato thinks they ought to be- thankfully. The consequences of our actions depend on not only what actions we perform, but when and how we do them, with whom we do them, and on other variable conditions- some predictable, and some still to be learned more about.

by Cato Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:06 pm

Aaron wrote:
Cato wrote:
Aaron wrote:
Cato wrote:One other thing while I'm writing, you and Terry like to complain about how things are, but when push comes to shove you seem wring your hands and point out how little can be done.

Aaron wrote:How so Cato?

Once again, how so Cato?

Look at your own posts. I have offered you a solution to the things you complain about, like the overspending. Your reply is to state you don't want the present gaggle of idiots rewriting the Constitution. My question is what is your solution, replace the present gaggle of fools with a new gaggle of fools that will allow the same thing to happen?

I don’t suppose you can give me specifics of what I’ve complained about that bothers me that your ‘belief' system would solve, can you?

Look at your own posts. You seem to want less government in your life, but you continue to want to use the very system that has been corrupted to the point I can't see how it can ever be fixed. All I saying is that we have an oppertunity to correct the mistakes that have been made and that the present constitution allows. The choice is yours.

by Cato Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:11 pm

ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:
Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:"Common sense" is not common.

Maybe not to people like you, but to the average person it is.

So everyone should think "average", should have the same "average" values, and my thinking should be the same "average" as your thinking, right? What about individual liberties to think as one pleases and to live as one pleases and to let others do likewise?

I don't care what a person thinks or does so long as it doesn't affect my liberty and they are willing to accept and deal witht he consequences of their actions.

You will never be satisfied, Cato, until everyone accepts YOUR prediction or your determination of what the consequences of their actions are or should be. But the consequences of our actions are not necessarily what Cato thinks they are, nor what Cato thinks they ought to be- thankfully. The consequences of our actions depend on not only what actions we perform, but when and how we do them, with whom we do them, and on other variable conditions- some predictable, and some still to be learned more about.

Your post is like that of a spoiled brat who can't think of anything else to say. As I said I don't care what a person does so long as it doesn't affect my liberty and they are willing to deal with the consequences of their actions, whatever they happen to be. As far as knowing what consequences are, I'm will aware I don't know what many action lead to, however, I don't want to be the one who has their money extorted or their liberty curtailed because some do gooder like you is trying to protect some knucklehead from himself.

by Aaron Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:17 pm

Cato wrote:
Aaron wrote:
Cato wrote:
Aaron wrote:
Cato wrote:One other thing while I'm writing, you and Terry like to complain about how things are, but when push comes to shove you seem wring your hands and point out how little can be done.

Aaron wrote:How so Cato?

Once again, how so Cato?

Look at your own posts. I have offered you a solution to the things you complain about, like the overspending. Your reply is to state you don't want the present gaggle of idiots rewriting the Constitution. My question is what is your solution, replace the present gaggle of fools with a new gaggle of fools that will allow the same thing to happen?

I don’t suppose you can give me specifics of what I’ve complained about that bothers me that your ‘belief' system would solve, can you?

Look at your own posts. You seem to want less government in your life, but you continue to want to use the very system that has been corrupted to the point I can't see how it can ever be fixed. All I saying is that we have an oppertunity to correct the mistakes that have been made and that the present constitution allows. The choice is yours.

I disagree that the constitution is broke and I think your souped up version of an articles of confederation would do more harm then good, unless one truly wants anarchy. There are ways to less government then the complete destruction of what we have.

by ziggy Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:52 pm

Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:You will never be satisfied, Cato, until everyone accepts YOUR prediction or your determination of what the consequences of their actions are or should be. But the consequences of our actions are not necessarily what Cato thinks they are, nor what Cato thinks they ought to be- thankfully. The consequences of our actions depend on not only what actions we perform, but when and how we do them, with whom we do them, and on other variable conditions- some predictable, and some still to be learned more about.

Your post is like that of a spoiled brat who can't think of anything else to say. As I said I don't care what a person does so long as it doesn't affect my liberty and they are willing to deal with the consequences of their actions, whatever they happen to be.

Everyone- absolutely everyone- has to deal with the consequences of their actions. It is as inevitable as living and breathing and dying.

As far as knowing what consequences are, I'm will aware I don't know what many action lead to, however, I don't want to be the one who has their money extorted or their liberty curtailed because some do gooder like you is trying to protect some knucklehead from himself.

And you presume to define and to know who is and is not a "knucklehead", right?

by ziggy Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:04 pm

As far as knowing what consequences are, I'm will aware I don't know what many action lead to, however, I don't want to be the one who has their money extorted or their liberty curtailed because some do gooder like you is trying to protect some knucklehead from himself.

From your previous recent posts we can presume that a "knucklehead" is probably either black, or is gay, or is un-employed, or is a skeptic of your vision of God, or is a skeptic of your version of what the Constitution means. Oh my. Everyone but Cato is a knucklehead.

by Cato Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:08 am

ziggy wrote:
As far as knowing what consequences are, I'm will aware I don't know what many action lead to, however, I don't want to be the one who has their money extorted or their liberty curtailed because some do gooder like you is trying to protect some knucklehead from himself.

From your previous recent posts we can presume that a "knucklehead" is probably either black, or is gay, or is un-employed, or is a skeptic of your vision of God, or is a skeptic of your version of what the Constitution means. Oh my. Everyone but Cato is a knucklehead.

Knucklehead - A person be they black, white, green, or yellow, muslim, Christain, Buddist, hindu or atheist, that is unwilling to accept the consequences of his/her actions. They expect nanny government to bail them of every bad decision they make.

by Aaron Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:35 am

Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:
As far as knowing what consequences are, I'm will aware I don't know what many action lead to, however, I don't want to be the one who has their money extorted or their liberty curtailed because some do gooder like you is trying to protect some knucklehead from himself.

From your previous recent posts we can presume that a "knucklehead" is probably either black, or is gay, or is un-employed, or is a skeptic of your vision of God, or is a skeptic of your version of what the Constitution means. Oh my. Everyone but Cato is a knucklehead.

Knucklehead - A person be they black, white, green, or yellow, muslim, Christain, Buddist, hindu or atheist, that is unwilling to accept the consequences of his/her actions. They expect nanny government to bail them of every bad decision they make.

Let's see, I went in the Army right out of high school, got out and was planning on going to school but my GF got pregnant so we married and I went to work, which I did for 25 years, through 4 kids and a divorce. My last job, after they shut my plant down, I moved 200 miles away from my kids just to stay working but they still laid me off 6 months later.

After writing a nearly $5K check to the state last week and paying over $20K in federal taxes alone, I'm going to take every penny of tuition assistance I can get and I'll ride unemployment for as long as I can.

I've been on unemployment for almost a year now because the jobs that are out there don't pay for the experience I have so I took out student loans and am going back to school.

While Terry will tell me I should forgo it all based on principal even though based on all taxes paid, I've forked over close to half a million dollars in my lifetime, by your standards, I'm a knucklehead, huh.

by Cato Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:51 am

Aaron wrote:
Cato wrote:
ziggy wrote:
As far as knowing what consequences are, I'm will aware I don't know what many action lead to, however, I don't want to be the one who has their money extorted or their liberty curtailed because some do gooder like you is trying to protect some knucklehead from himself.

From your previous recent posts we can presume that a "knucklehead" is probably either black, or is gay, or is un-employed, or is a skeptic of your vision of God, or is a skeptic of your version of what the Constitution means. Oh my. Everyone but Cato is a knucklehead.

Knucklehead - A person be they black, white, green, or yellow, muslim, Christain, Buddist, hindu or atheist, that is unwilling to accept the consequences of his/her actions. They expect nanny government to bail them of every bad decision they make.

Let's see, I went in the Army right out of high school, got out and was planning on going to school but my GF got pregnant so we married and I went to work, which I did for 25 years, through 4 kids and a divorce. My last job, after they shut my plant down, I moved 200 miles away from my kids just to stay working but they still laid me off 6 months later.

After writing a nearly $5K check to the state last week and paying over $20K in federal taxes alone, I'm going to take every penny of tuition assistance I can get and I'll ride unemployment for as long as I can.

I've been on unemployment for almost a year now because the jobs that are out there don't pay for the experience I have so I took out student loans and am going back to school.

While Terry will tell me I should forgo it all based on principal even though based on all taxes paid, I've forked over close to half a million dollars in my lifetime, by your standards, I'm a knucklehead, huh.

Nope, because you aren't setting back and expecting the government to take care of you so you don't have to expend any effort on your own. Oh by the way, I don't blame you in the least for taking all the asistance you can, unlike 47% of the population you've paid for it and you've earned it. Also like you, I've written some large checks to the bloodsucking politicans so they could buy their votes from parasites. I have my last kid in school. I paid enough in Federal Tax alone to send him to school for 3 semesters, room, board, tuition, books, fees, and he whole works. However, he gets to borrow money so some one who has never lifted a finger gets a free ride.

I've been the same boat as you, unemployed and with a family. I didn't go crawling the politicians and expect them to pick up my bills so I could sit on my butt. I was off the 3 months and I hunted for a job everyday. I was lucky enough to begin again as a laborer and a trackman on the railroad on a temporary basis with no benefits. That was nearly 30 years ago and I have worked myself up through the ranks since.

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