Women With Suntans Will Be Arrested, Iran Police Chief Warns

Oh, question #2...........I don't know, Mike. Groups of strange men have ALWAYS made me nervous if I'm the only girl. Not as much as when I was younger and more attractive to them, but I have my sexist tendancies too, yano.

Stephanie wrote:

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:I view religion as "organized" when a group shares beliefs and has either an individual, or subgroup telling the followers how to behave, or what actions they need to take.

And that applied to American Indians?

Was Squanto a savage?

Not according to the documented portions of his life be we can't say for sure about the undocumented portions. Since were going one individual at a time, was Billy Sunday evil or if you prefer, 'no good'?

And did American Indians practice organized religion manking them 'no good'?

And does religion have to be organized to be 'no good' or is all religion 'no good'.

Which countries in the world have a majority atheist population?

Boy have I struck a nerve with Aaron.

I don't believe organized religion is a good thing. I think it is NOT a good thing, that doesn't mean I think all people affiliated with an organized religion are bad. It means exactly what it says.........I dont think organized religion is good for humanity. Has it been good for some individuals, you bet.

Religion leads to persecution. People do all kinds of horrible things to others based upon their interpretation of religious text or based upon marching orders from their religious leader. This has gone on throughout history and it continues to go on to this day and that includes Christians.

For centuries Christians have forced conversion upon non-Christians. Sometimes by dangeling a carrot.......food, housing, healthcare.....and sometimes with beatings and stonings and confiscation of property and real estate or kidnapping of children. Christians have used humiliation, public ridicule, and shunning as tactics to force people to conform or get the hell out. Some of these practices continue to this day by some Christians, some of them Americans. This is not unique to Christianity. I never said it was. I never said all Christians do these things, but enough have these past 2000 years and enough continue to do it today for me to have the opinion that just like Judaism and Islam and those crazy Hale Bop comet folks, it is not a good thing for humanity.

I did not single Christianity out. Whoever asked the original question did. I still have not said it is evil. I am giving you my opinion. It is mine, and while the US Congress & Presidents have been chipping away at the liberties of Americans since before my birth, opinions are something we are still entitled to have in this country.

btw......I never used the term "no good". I said, and continue to say, not a good thing.

Mike, I have no clue whether or not there are any countries where atheists are in the majority. I simply do not know nor do I particularly care. I still think sometimes of moving to Belize, but it will not happen as I have 3 adult children and a beautiful granddaughter who would not join me. The hundreds of miles that separate me from them now is bad enough.

Cato, I know people who are spiritual, believe in a higher power or higher powers, who do not affiliate with any church and take no religious guidance or instruction from anyone. I would say they have "religion", just not an organized religion.

No Stephanie you have not struck a nerve with me. I've just pointed out your flaws in your argument that religion is not good and that seems to have struck a nerve with you. You want to blame Christianity for all the bad done in it's name and I surmise that if it weren't in the name of Christianity, the Hitler’s and others of this world who have justified their actions in the name of religion would have found another reason if there was no religion.

What you don't seem to understand is that man has an inherently evil streak in them and it comes out in some from time to time. That is not the fault of any one religion, it is simply how man is yet you want to excuse that part of humans and place the blame elsewhere, which I believe is be a bit naive.

Now is Billy Sunday evil?

You're getting on my nerves. You've tried to put words in my mouth (or on my fingertips) and I won't have it.

I don't believe for a minute that people are inherently evil, or that they are born with evil streaks, or into sin, or any other such foolishness. There are a lot of bad people, but there are also a lot of good people.

I didn't know Billy Sunday. He lived and died long before we were born. There are various biographies and accounts of his life and I am somewhat familiar with who he was and what he did. He did some things that were beneficial to others, but it seems to me the person who profitted the most from all those sermons and all that preaching was none other than Billy Sunday.

He amassed quite a bit of wealth and power. He used some of that wealth and power for good causes, but he was a prominent prohibitionist and we know what the results of prohibition were

O

You are what your environment nurtured you to be.

If you were nurtured at a young age to understand and speak the English language then that is what you will understand and speak .......... and you will never question or think about it when you do it. You just do it and no one can talk you out of it or convince you not to do it. But you can nurture yourself to speak another language ....... if you want to, ....... and that is because you were never nurtured not to learn another language. Nor were you nurtured that you would not go to Heaven if you learned another language or would end up in Hades if you learned another language.

But if you were nurtured to believe in the Christian Religion then that is what you will believe in. And since most Christians are also nurtured not to believe in a different Religion then they are not going to ....... primarily because they were also nurtured with a fear of what is in store for them if they do.

And that is why most Christians adamantly disagree with the Islamic Religion and think it is wrong, strange and silly that they worship Mohammed. But "DUH", those Muslims were nurtured to believe in the Islamic religion and they think the same about Christians and their silly worshipping of Jesus Christ. And believers in the Flying Spaghetti Monster think both Christians and Muslims are funny and weird.

Religious beliefs, etc., are imprinted (nurtured, programmed, written, whatever) in one's brain and are only accessible to one's subconscious mind ..... which controls everything the conscious mind thinks about.

So if you really think there is a God and that all Republicans are worse than the Devil then that is what your subconscious mind has been programmed to tell you to think. Or you think Republicans are OK, there might be a God and that the Atomic Laws of matter govern the universe then that is what your subconscious mind has been programmed to tell you to think. And if you prefer a Bud Light and a Pizza Hut pizza rather than Coors and a Papa John’s Pizza, so be it, no one will easily convince you otherwise.

Only a traumatic event or a strong desire will modify your thoughts ........ and that process we call "learning". It is quite easy to learn new information that is similar or associated with previously learned info. Learning to speak a new language, learning to like the taste/smell of a different food, learning to like someone enough to call them your friend, learning to believe in a different Religious belief, learning to do evil things to other people, learning to have compassion, learning to say "please" and "thank you", ...... learning, learning, nurturing, ..... revising and/or reprogramming your subconscious mind. You can not delete or erase "old programming", .... you can only add, link between or append to the old.

You are what your environment nurtures you to be.


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Stephanie,

The officially atheist nations are North Korea and China.

Stephanie wrote:
I don't believe for a minute that people are inherently evil, or that they are born with evil streaks, or into sin, or any other such foolishness. There are a lot of bad people, but there are also a lot of good people.

And therein lies the fallacy of your argument.

Stephanie wrote:I didn't know Billy Sunday. He lived and died long before we were born. There are various biographies and accounts of his life and I am somewhat familiar with who he was and what he did. He did some things that were beneficial to others, but it seems to me the person who profitted the most from all those sermons and all that preaching was none other than Billy Sunday.

He amassed quite a bit of wealth and power. He used some of that wealth and power for good causes, but he was a prominent prohibitionist and we know what the results of prohibition were

O

You didn't know Squanto either yet that didn't stop you from asking if he were a savage.

And the only reason I ask about Billy Sunday is that was my dad's name before he legally changed it, Billy Sunday Staats. He changed it to William Lloyd Staats, which is what he said his name was when he enlisted in the Navy on January 28th, 1942, the day he turned 21. He was his mother’s favorite and she wouldn't sign the papers for him to enlist on December 8th, 1941, when he wanted to.

I'm not sure what you mean about the results of prohibition. It was only repealed to pay for FDR's New Deal. I'm curious though as to what you think the results of prohibition were.

Aaron wrote:

Stephanie wrote:
I don't believe for a minute that people are inherently evil, or that they are born with evil streaks, or into sin, or any other such foolishness. There are a lot of bad people, but there are also a lot of good people.

And therein lies the fallacy of your argument.

Yeah, and just exactly what do you think that fallacy is?

And please don't be quoting your Bible to prove the truth of your Bible.

"Circular reasoning" is not an acceptable defense or reply.

First Sam, I don't have a bible. I have read The Bible as well as a little of The Koran which I found to be not well written thus it didn't interest me as much. I've also read some of the writings of Buddha and I did find those somewhat interesting and very similar to the teachings of Jesus.

As to Stephanie's fallacy, it is that she doesn't believe for a minute that people are inherently evil, or that they are born with evil streaks, or into sin, or any other such foolishness.

Aaron, people born without any biological mental defects are not inherently evil, and they are not born with evil streaks, or are not born into sin.

But now anyone unfortunate enough to be the recipiant of a "not so good" complement of genes might have a problem with their ability to be nurtured and/or might unintentionally cause them to act violently. aka: their brain chemistry gets screwed up noninfrequently.

As I told Ziggy Sam, that's an opinion.

What I wonder though is you're the one who believes we are what we are nurtured to be. So how can one be nurtured to be mean, evil or do bad things if humans aren't born with the penchant to committ those acts?

Additionally, why is it that some kids who are nutured to be good and raised with positive reinforcement turn out bad while others nutured in a negative manner with negative reinforcment turn out good?

SheikBen wrote:Stephanie,

The officially atheist nations are North Korea and China.

The communist regimes running their nations wish to abolish religion. That does't mean a majority of citizens don't have religion.

Communists only want to abolish existing religion and replace it with communism. There is no god, instead there is the intelligent leader, the respected mother and the brilliant comrade.

Squanto was of invaluable assistance to the people who came over on the Mayflower. Most think they wouldn't have survived the first winter without his help and the help of other natives. You claimed they were all savages.

I don't understand what Billy Sunday or your dad has to do with this conversation. I "get" your grandmother. She loved her boy

The bootlegging and organized crime were the result of Prohibition.

As to Stephanie's fallacy, it is that she doesn't believe for a minute that people are inherently evil, or that they are born with evil streaks, or into sin, or any other such foolishness.

It must be fallacy, Sam, because Aaron doesn't agree with it!

Stephanie wrote:Squanto was of invaluable assistance to the people who came over on the Mayflower. Most think they wouldn't have survived the first winter without his help and the help of other natives. You claimed they were all savages.

No I didn't. I said American Indians earned the label of savages prior to the white man coming here, which they did. That doesn't mean all Indians were savages any more then you implying Christianity is "no good" means all Christians are evil.

Talk about a broad stroke.

Stephanie wrote:I don't understand what Billy Sunday or your dad has to do with this conversation. I "get" your grandmother. She loved her boy

You narrowed my statement about American Indians to one. I responded in kind to your statement about Christianity with Billy Sunday. I chose him because he was my dad's namesake and I knew who he was as a result of it. My grandmother had 9 boys, one younger then Dad and she signed his enlistment papers on December 9th, 1941.

Stephanie wrote:The bootlegging and organized crime were the result of Prohibition.

No, existing organized crime syndicates already existed and they merely capitalized on prohibition. They were already around when the 18th Amendment was enacted.

Stephanie wrote:

As to Stephanie's fallacy, it is that she doesn't believe for a minute that people are inherently evil, or that they are born with evil streaks, or into sin, or any other such foolishness.

It must be fallacy, Sam, because Aaron doesn't agree with it!

If I don't agree with it Stephanie and think you are wrong, how besides as a fallacy am I supposed to classify it?

fal·la·cy   /ˈfæləsi/ Show Spelled[fal-uh-see] Show IPA
–noun,plural-cies.
1.a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.: That the world is flat was at one time a popular fallacy.
2.a misleading or unsound argument.
3.deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.
4.Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.
5.Obsolete. deception.

Aaron wrote:As I told Ziggy Sam, that's an opinion.

What I wonder though is you're the one who believes we are what we are nurtured to be. So how can one be nurtured to be mean, evil or do bad things if humans aren't born with the penchant to committ those acts?

Aaron, don't you know why a junk yard dog is called ..... a Junk Yard Dog? DUH!

Aaron, were you and/or your ex-wife nurtured to do a few bad things before or after your divorce.

Aaron, how many ex-wives or ex-husbands do you know or have you heard of that their "divorcing" nurtured them to do some pretty nasty and bad things ..... either just prior to or after their Divorce was granted.

Aaron wrote:Additionally, why is it that some kids who are nutured to be good and raised with positive reinforcement turn out bad while others nutured in a negative manner with negative reinforcment turn out good?

Aaron, what you think is "good and positive" nurturing ........ might not be what that kid(s) thinks it is or takes it to be.

And likewise, a kid(s) nurtured in a negative manner with negative reinforcment may dislike their treatment so much that they will be the complete opposite of the way they were nurtured. And Aaron, if it is not done properly, that "good and positive nurturing" you think you are giving your child, ........ is actually negative nurturing for said child.

Case in point, how many parents do you know that will "buy their kids anything they want"...... solely because they were deprived of even little non-significent thingys when they were a child. Giving a child "lots of spending money" is a prime example of said ..... because the parent didn't have or was refused said when they were a kid.

Or, their brother or sister got all the spending money and they didn't get any.

And then there is the opposite, a parent who was always refused "spending money" when they were a child ...... might refuse to give their child any "spending money" also.

Aaron, nurturing is just not the "teaching" of one (1) new thing at a time with the child learning to do whatever it is. It is the teaching of one (1) new thing ...... which is "filtered" by all the other "one (1) new things" they were previously nurtured with. What you learn today, ........ will depend upon what you learned yesterday ......... and all your yesterdays prior to that ...... clear back to the day of your birth.

Aaron, test yourself. Pick a "bad memory" of something that someone did to you during your childhood or teen years and then ask yourself a "yes or no" question of: Would I do the same thing to someone else like was done to me?

Then ask yourself WHY you answered the way you did.

If you answer was "No" .... was it because you don't want to be the one to cause another person to suffer the "bad thing" that happened to you?

If you answer was "Yes" .... was it because you are still pissed and think someone else should have to suffer just like you did.

Or do you have a different explanation for your answer?

What would have been your answer if said person was your friend, .... your enemy ... your friend's friend, .... your enemy's enemy, ...... looked like your father, .... a good looking person, ...... an ugly person that reminded you of someone you disliked, ...... a handicapped person ....... a fat person?

"Recalled thingys" .... which are used to "filter" what one's reaction will be. Recalling all of those "one (1) new thingys" they were previously nurtured (learned) and imprinted in your permanent memory.

Aaron, ....... You are what your environment nurtured you to be.

cheers

All of THAT Sam reinforces, at least to me, that humans are born with the capability do both good and bad and that a great deal of how they act in later life is dependent upon how they are nurtured. But before that nurturing can begin, humans must already possess the ability to do either good or evil. After all, you can't nurture a flower out of dirt without a seed, correct!!! Thanks for helping prove my point.

Cheers

Aaron wrote:All of THAT Sam reinforces, at least to me, that humans are born with the capability do both good and bad

That is akin to saying that .... guns are made with the capability to do both target practice and hunting animals.

and that a great deal of how they act in later life is dependent upon how they are nurtured.

Aaron, you use of the phrase "a great deal of" just confuses your statement by introducing "physical limitations" of the individual.

But before that nurturing can begin, humans must already possess the ability to do either good or evil.

Yes, and to do either: great or excellent, .... average or poorly, .... run fastly or slowly, ..... be careing or uncaring, ....... observant or clueless, ...... etc., etc.

Aaron your "good vrs evil" thingy is a strawman argument when it pertains to nurturing because they are social/cultural constructs and literally mean nothing to anyone except the individual, group, society or culture that "constructs" them. aka: defines what "acts" that are perpetrated by any human, beast, inanimate object or supernatural entity are to be labeled as either "good acts" or "evil acts".

I say it is "good", you say it is "evil", and someone else says "I don't give a damn what you call it".

After all, you can't nurture a flower out of dirt without a seed, correct!!! Thanks for helping prove my point.

Weelllllllllllllll ... actually, ...... yes ya can, .... its called sympodial growth.



That rhizome or tuber just keeps a growing and the flowers just keep sprouting up from it.

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Aaron, here is something you might want to read. You might find something in it to support your belief and thus post a counter argument to what I have stated above.

Six months old and he can tell good from evil

Mothers and fathers might think they have few higher duties than teaching a sense of right and wrong to their children. But research suggests that their offspring may already be a step ahead of them.

Scientists have discovered that babies can start to make moral judgments by the age of six months and may be born with the ability to tell good from bad hard-wired into their brains.

Infants can even act as judge and jury in the nursery. Researchers who asked one-year-old babies to take away treats from a “naughty” puppet found they were sometimes also leaning over and smacking the figure on the head.

The research is being pioneered by a team of psychologists at the infant cognition centre at Yale University in Connecticut. Their findings go against the received wisdom that humans begin life with a moral “blank slate” and are shaped by their parents and social environment.

In their research, the scientists used the ability to tell helpful from unhelpful behaviour as an indication of moral judgment. In one experiment, they tested infants less than a year old playing

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/biology_evolution/article7120735.ece

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There are limitations because not everyone turns out in the manner they were nurtured to be. 95%, perhaps, maybe even 99% but there is always a small minority that turn out different then they were nurtured. It's that one dog out of a hundred that bites the hand that feeds them. Regardless of how much you and I bloviate Sam, it happens. You know it and I know it and we both know that comes from instincts the person, or animal in the case of the dog is born with.

A perfect example is my baby Ali. Before he lays down at night for bed, he walks around in circles a dozen times or more. Same thing every night. I got curious as to why he does that but the other two dogs don't so I googled it. Guess what I found. Its instinct, what really smart people like you would call an "evolutionary holdover."

Seems long ago, primitive dogs who didn't have a big fluffy bed like Ali does had to sleep in the snow, under the stars and if they were lucky, on a big leaf bed but they just couldn't lay down because it was hard to tell what was sticking up so they would walk in circles to trample their bed down and make it nice and soft and cozy before they went to sleep. And it became so instinctive that dogs like Ali who has never slept outside and who has NEVER been nurtured to walk in circles to trample down his bed does it every night, just like his ancestors of thousands of years ago.

It seems to me that’s an instinct he was “born” with that wasn’t nurtured but I reckon you’ll explain to me how I’m wrong now.

As for defining good and evil, isn't that the guidelines we use when we go to a nurturing our youngun’s?

And it became so instinctive that dogs like Ali who has never slept outside and who has NEVER been nurtured to walk in circles to trample down his bed does it every night, just like his ancestors of thousands of years ago.

Aaron, that story, which I had never heard before, sure was a cute one. But if it pleases you then it tickles the ell out of me.

Aaron, took me a bit to find the following but its the explaination I ascribe to.

Circling before lying down is a dogs defensive behavior. Dogs in the wilds would make sure that the location they have chosen to bed is not occupied by snakes, scorpions and other dangerous animals. By circling around before napping, the dog will see possible threats.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-Do-Dogs-Circle-Before-Lying-Down?&id=1856412

Aaron, in that it is an inherited instinct then it is most assuredly an inherited survival instinct and making oneself a comfortable bed to lie down has nothing to do with survival.

They call them "inherited survival instincts" ...... because they are inherited from their forebearers ....... and that is only possible because said trait (instinct) was what aided their ancestors to survive by being one of the fittest, ..... aka: "survival of the fittest".


Anyway, dogs are predator animals and predators prefer sleeping where they can see what's going on around them and thus they probably won't pick a place where the grass is high enough they would have tromp it down to make a bed. Probably no higher than they can see over by raising their head. Besides, a dog "hunts with its nose" and very high grass would deflect the air currents carrying any scents in their direction.

Aaron, did you know that humans are born with a few "inherited survival instincts"? One of them is quite subtle and which very few parents even notice or know what actually happened.

Crying, ..... reacting to loud noises, ...... reaction to fear ..... are inherited traits.

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