According to Muslims Tolerance only goes one way

You are a more worthy defender of Cato's words than he is. Because just saying, "whatever" does not go very far, nor inspire much credibility.

ziggy wrote:Cato is constantly laying out grandiose social and religious proclamations- often as wide as a Georgia pine is tall. All I am doing is steering the proverbial Mack truck ................................... .

ziggy wrote:If Cato can't play word games, he shouldn't start them. When he claims that two self-annointed TV preachers who make zillion$ of dollars on their grandstanded political / theological pontifications "lead and speak for many segments of Christians", then he should expect some reactions to those words.

ziggy wrote:I do not mind that you continue to run intereference for Cato. You are a more worthy defender of Cato's words than he is. Because just saying, "whatever" does not go very far, nor inspire much credibility.

Stephanie wrote:

You are a more worthy defender of Cato's words than he is. Because just saying, "whatever" does not go very far, nor inspire much credibility.

Don't forget the eye rolling. That's what I got.

ziggy wrote:

Cato started this topic with the title, "According to Muslims Tolerance only goes one way". But Cato's own "tolerance" only goes one way, as well. He demands that Muslims denounce the terrorists who perpetrated 9-11 in the name of Islam, but makes no such demands of Christians for their leaders and spokespersons who say that America deserved 9-11.

Aaron wrote:You didn't answer my question Ziggy. Is the good Reverend Wright in the same boat as the Reverend’s Falwell and Robertson? And does his congregation follow him in the same manner Falwell's and Robertson's do?

Cato wrote:

ziggy wrote:Cato is constantly laying out grandiose social and religious proclamations- often as wide as a Georgia pine is tall. All I am doing is steering the proverbial Mack truck ................................... .

What grandiose social and religious proclaminations? ....................

ziggy wrote:

SheikBen wrote:Did God cause those men to kill those innocent people? I do not believe so. Could God have stopped it? You bet.

You seem to be trying to draw a distinction between "cause" and "could have stopped"- but without a meaningful difference. As those thousands lay dying in the rubble of 9-11, do you think they cared whether God caused it, or just allowed it? As a practical matter- or even as a mere theological matter- what difference does it make?

Robertson and Falwell truly believed that God chose not to protect the United States at that moment. I do not revel in that reality, but I agree with them. I wish no ill upon anyone, and I frankly doubt that Robertson or Falwell did, either.

I disagree. Robertson and Falwell have long predicted terrible retributions from God for those who go against their versions of God's words. And once they predict calamity, then their credibility, in their psyches, demands that calamity come to pass. And when it does, they feel vindicated- and point their fingers at their domestic social enemies accordingly.

JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats -- what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well yes.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

SheikBen wrote:Do I believe that America deserves judgement? Frankly, yes. I love my neighbors. I love (and truly like) everyone here. I love my wife and kids. I do not wish harm on anyone for one moment. I believe, however, that great harm is coming.

Now to "cause" vs. "let happen," there is an old Jewish principle of "what God permits, He commits." I'm not quite sure what I think of this, because either way He has made a decision.

ziggy wrote:

SheikBen wrote:Do I believe that America deserves judgement? Frankly, yes. I love my neighbors. I love (and truly like) everyone here. I love my wife and kids. I do not wish harm on anyone for one moment. I believe, however, that great harm is coming.

Does all of America "deserve judgment" at the hands of Muslim terrorists- or just the parts that have sinned? Does America "deserve judgment" at the hands of Muslim terrorists because of social and military actions against Muslims, or because of sins against God? Why can't God deliver his or her own judgment instead of leaving the dirty work of crashing planes into buildings to those Jew hating Muslims?

ziggy wrote:

SheikBen wrote:Do I believe that America deserves judgement? Frankly, yes. I love my neighbors. I love (and truly like) everyone here. I love my wife and kids. I do not wish harm on anyone for one moment. I believe, however, that great harm is coming.

Does all of America "deserve judgment" at the hands of Muslim terrorists- or just the parts that have sinned? Does America "deserve judgment" at the hands of Muslim terrorists because of social and military actions against Muslims, or because of sins against God? Why can't God deliver his or her own judgment instead of leaving the dirty work of crashing planes into buildings to those Jew hating Muslims?

If you remember, I am the dirty peice of crap, according to you and terry anyways, that said we need to know what we are dealing with when we deal in the middle east.

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

SheikBen wrote:Do I believe that America deserves judgement? Frankly, yes. I love my neighbors. I love (and truly like) everyone here. I love my wife and kids. I do not wish harm on anyone for one moment. I believe, however, that great harm is coming.

Does all of America "deserve judgment" at the hands of Muslim terrorists- or just the parts that have sinned? Does America "deserve judgment" at the hands of Muslim terrorists because of social and military actions against Muslims, or because of sins against God? Why can't God deliver his or her own judgment instead of leaving the dirty work of crashing planes into buildings to those Jew hating Muslims?

Excellent questions that should be posed to Reverend Wright as well, don't you agree Ziggy!!!

Cato wrote:Actions have consequences. Sometimes the consequences can be devastating. That is why people need to consider what they do and weigh the cost of each choice. ......................................... Many of our leaders, including the present fool that occupies the whitehouse along with many of the chumps in congress have never once given thought to what they were dealing with. The cost has been astronomical.

Aaron wrote:Is there a particular reason you hold Reverend Wright to a different standard then you do Reverend's Falwell and Robertson Ziggy?

SheikBen wrote:Success is hourly expected on the Rev Wright front. In the meantime, Messrs Falwell and Robertson believed that bad things would happen to the United States and they were "vindicated," but far from pleased.

The theological troublings aside, I do not see how you have shown in the least any amount of "glee" at the deaths of innocents.

Aaron wrote:You are proving that you are not interested in substantive conversation or debate and instead your only goal is try and one up Cato to make him look bad. Even for you, this is becoming trite and you are losing the minimal amount of credibility you had.

Cato wrote:

ziggy wrote:

One the other side of the coin when the abortion clinic bombers were running around blowing up clinics in the name of God, some of the larest outcry and condemnation came from the churches.

From what churches? From some Unitarian churches and other liberal churches, yes. But most Southern Baptist and other fundamentalist churches, for example, were mostly smugly quiet in their sureness that God's work was being carried out by abortion clinic bombers. Those few religious fundamentalists who did speak out critically seemed more motivated by how such violence would negatively affect public perceptions of the stop abortion movement than about other aspects of anarchial violent acts of vigilante terrorism spawned and perpretated by abortion foes.

Pat Robertson Condemned it, I heard him do so in an interview on TV. Jerry Falwell condemned the acts violence I also heard him do it. While I don't necessarily agree with the theology of these men, they do lead an speak for large segments of christains. As Arron stated, you certainly didn't see large crowds of christians daning in the streets celebrating the bombing of abortion clinics, like the muslims did at 9/11.