Super wants to increase Educational Welfare benefits

Obviously the best solution here is to not get a zero in the first place.

Putting that aside - this idea of not "giving" zeros has been kicked around for a couple of years now. The idea being that statistically it is extremely difficult to come back from a zero grade than a 50 grade.

But on the other hand - isn't that difficulty part of the consequences to getting a zero in the first place and to act as a deterrent? Well, yes, but obviously it's not working so well in that department.

I would like to see teachers/administrators who enter grades, allow for the following: if a kid can show mastery of a concept but they failed the classwork - consider what is important - that the kid learned the material or that they didn't turn in paperwork? I'm not saying they would have earned an "A" - but certainly not an "F". How many fellow students do you know/knew who could whip out all the assignments/paperwork required but still not know what the subject matter was about?

So what would be the take away lesson if we do make "0"s into "50"s? Depends on the kid and the situation. One time situations - i.ed. kid was having some real issues in the last couple of weeks making it impossible for him to turn in homework/projects/etc and misses submitting over 300 points....but pulls it back together at the end of the nine weeks and passes the exams with Bs and Cs? Will the teacher allow that student to fail due to holes in the gradebook? I would hope not.

If the situation is a kid however who NEVER turns in work, sleeps through class, skips 50% of the time, and fails exams (when he's there to take them).....would turning those 0s into 50s even matter? He will still fail - the "F" on the report card isn't printed any larger because they failed with a 3% than with a 53%.

I can see both sides of this - and have used both sides in conversations with parents. I would want the flexibility as a teacher to be able to make judgment calls for individual situations such as these. I would not want an across-the-board policy enacted that would not allow me to use my professional judgment in these matters.

Oh - and the best way that I've found in dealing with what other parents and students ask/say when something is done for someone else but not their snowflake? I just tell them "Fair isn't always equal" and that it's none of their business.

OK, but doesn't setting the minimum at 50% reflect a pseudo Percentile Rating for the individual, the class and/or the school?

How so Sam?

As long as the teacher isn't grading on a curve - one students' grades do not affect another student's grades.

How so Sam?

Sasha, the same way that the increases in the cooler/cold period near earth temperatures affect the Average Monthly/Yearly Temperatures and/or the Average Increases in Monthly/Yearly Temperature, a fact that the proponents of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) refuse to recognize, address, admit to or talk about. And that is because they love to tout their pseudo “Record Breaking Temperatures” as proof of their bogus claims of CO2 causing Global Warming (AGW).

And the same would be true for the claims of the Educators if they are permitted to increase all “cooler/cold” Grades up to a 50% “temperature”.

There is no Global Warming, it is all Smoke n’ Mirrors. The only unreported “fact” is the fact that the earth has not been cooling off as much and that “FACT” alone is the cause of the INCREASES in their Average Temperature calculations. "DUH", even your parents will tell you that our Winters are not as cold as they use to be, Sasha. And I'm absolutely sure that they won't tell you that our Summers are hotter than they use to be.

Do the math, Sasha, …… but remember, figures don’t lie but liars can figure. And NO, dammit, I didn't call you a liar so forget that crap.

Let’s say your HS basketball team, including the “cold shooting” players as well as the “hot shooting” players, has an Average Shooting Record of 31%. Now if the “hot shooters” get hotter it will cause a Record Increase in said ASR to 34% or 35% and you can claim the Team got “hotter” and will win more games. But if the “hot shooters” didn’t get hotter but the “cold shooters” got warmed up a bit then that will also cause a Record Increase in said ASR to 34% or 35% but you can’t claim the Team got “hotter” because that Record Increase won’t help them one bit in winning more games.

Any increase in the “low” numbers OR any increase in the “high” numbers will cause an INCREASE in the average number(s).

ok - i see what you are saying now.

I was thinking something similar the other day in regards to how the US is falling behind all these other countries in this, that, and the other. Well, ok - yeah - technically we are. But could it be because the other countries are getting better and we are just maintaining status quo as opposed to 'getting worse'?

I also see something of this with the state telling us to concentrate on kids who are just below "mastery" on tests. These are the kids who we can bump up a few points with just "a little more effort" over the bar to that magic point of "mastery". Those who are significantly lower - well, we'll never save them....and those who are already there and above....well, they are already to the good.

UNLESS you are a potential drop-out...then KATIE BAR THE DOOR!!! Here's this and that program - try this - do that - gyrate this way - stick out your tongue and cross your eyes - and presto! You're a graduate!

It's pissing me off.

First, thanks for the chuckle, Sasha

Now I'm going to say something REALLY unpopular.

It is my considered opinion that increasing graduation requirements is ridiculous.

OK, I'm going to say a few REALLY unpopular things.

I am also of the belief that high school experiences need to be tailored to the student. Not every student is going to attend a 4 year college, so not every student needs to be prepared for a 4 year college.

I agree that every high school graduate must be able to read and understand a newspaper and be able to write a well organized letter, a resume and complete a job application. I disagree with the notion that every high school graduate must complete 4 units of English.

I agree every high school graduate must be proficient in addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, measurements, balance a checkbook and they must be able to read graphs. I disagree they all need algebra, or successfully complete anything more than one credit of high school math. I'm sure TerryRC thinks me daft. I can live with that.

I am of the belief that every student must successfully complete courses in civics. They must be able to read a map and they need to successfully complete a course in US History. I disagree they need to complete courses in world history. They learned all kinds of fun stuff about ancient Egyptians and Vikings, and Huns and the like by the time they got to high school.

High schools should provide students with basic knowledge in biology, chemistry, physics and earth science. This could easily be accomplished by building on the many years of science instruction they have already received in grades K-8 in one or two general science classes.

Student athletes should be exempt from Phys Ed requirements. This includes students who regularly participate in activites not offered in their schools. Gymnastics, swimming, and dance are all physical activities many students participate in outside the school environment. Members of the local Y swim team don't need 2 hours a week for a semester or two of whatever is the current fad in HS PE.

We need more career and tech schools providing a greater number of choices for our students. By not requiring every student to take 4 years of English and 3 of math etc the students will have the time to take classes to become pharmacy techs or electrologists or administrative assistants or contruction workers.

It would also help college bound students to free up teachers of core academics for more advanced classes. Future educators and nurses and scientists will no longer have to compete for classes in math and science and literature with future hair stylists and billing clerks.

High schools need to be more flexible. They need to be responsive to the needs of their students and their future employers instead of whatever you choose to call the bullshit they've been perpetrating the past couple of decades.

Steph, what you said is not unpopular with me.

I agree every high school graduate must be proficient in addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, measurements, balance a checkbook and they must be able to read graphs. I disagree they all need algebra, or successfully complete anything more than one credit of high school math. I'm sure TerryRC thinks me daft. I can live with that.

Yep, I do. Math is fundamental to an almost unlistable number of disciplines.

Try being a machinist without algebra or trig. Should we wait until college to teach them? Waste time teaching them basic geometry on the job when it should have been learned in 8th grade?

Part of what you say is pretty good. Part of it is moonshine.

TerryRC wrote:I agree every high school graduate must be proficient in addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, measurements, balance a checkbook and they must be able to read graphs. I disagree they all need algebra, or successfully complete anything more than one credit of high school math. I'm sure TerryRC thinks me daft. I can live with that.

Yep, I do. Math is fundamental to an almost unlistable number of disciplines.

Try being a machinist without algebra or trig. Should we wait until college to teach them? Waste time teaching them basic geometry on the job when it should have been learned in 8th grade?

Part of what you say is pretty good. Part of it is moonshine.

No, I don't think so, Terry. Machinists require higher level math, no doubt. So students planning on that career path should take higher level math. Places like Everest Institute thrive because our high schools now require every future machinist to complete unnecessary classes in English and World History that they have no interest in and are not required for their future career. They are forced to compete with future hair stylists for math classes with future hair stylists and CNA's. That's a foolish waste of resources not to mention time.

You are absolutely correct Stephanie. There are a little need for anything above basic algebra which should be taught in middle school for a vast majority of careers. Beyond that, we should be teaching kids how to balance a check book, planning a budget, understanding credit, how to manage loans and such.

I say middle school because I have been told by so many kids of how much a waste of time the last 2-3 years of high school are but if we eliminat needless classes then we eliminate jobs and we all know how well that will go over.

No, I don't think so, Terry. Machinists require higher level math, no doubt.

Now I have known a dozen or so expert and master machinists in my travels and I don't think any of them were proficient in higher level math.

Today's programmers of the automatic cutting tools probably require some higher level math. But then, most of the math needed is surely "built in" to the "source code generator" for said tools.

If higher level math was a prerequisite for today's machinists then it would be impossible to find enough machinists to do the jobs that need to be done.

I would be curious where all those master woodcrafters learned thier Trig and Algebra when they were turning out chair and table legs on laiths over the past 5000 years, give or take a decade or 10.

And Sam is right regarding cutting machines. I have a brother in law who educationally speaking is not very bright but he runs those machines better then college graduates in his job at Engines Incorporated.

No, I don't think so, Terry. Machinists require higher level math, no doubt. So students planning on that career path should take higher level math. Places like Everest Institute thrive because our high schools now require every future machinist to complete unnecessary classes in English and World History that they have no interest in and are not required for their future career. They are forced to compete with future hair stylists for math classes with future hair stylists and CNA's. That's a foolish waste of resources not to mention time.

So kids have their careers picked out in 8th grade? They know then that they WON'T need to know how to speak or write proper English, or that math will be a waste of time for them

We give kids tools like geometry and trig so that they have MORE CHOICES in what they want to do with their lives.

I would be curious where all those master woodcrafters learned thier Trig and Algebra when they were turning out chair and table legs on laiths over the past 5000 years, give or take a decade or 10.

How about calculating the square footage of a roof before the eaves are built, requiring how to figure a hypotenuse? How about calculating surface speeds on a lathe (I don't know what a laith is)? You can do it by trial and error and perhaps ruin multiple tools, or you can calculate it in advance.

And Sam is right regarding cutting machines. I have a brother in law who educationally speaking is not very bright but he runs those machines better then college graduates in his job at Engines Incorporated.

Good for him, he knows how to push buttons. Pick up a Machinist's Handbook and see what a true toolmaker needs to know.

BTW, tool and die makers are in great demand, primarily because our kids have drank the kool aid that people like you all have poured and they lack the education to learn the trade.

Let us expect even less out of our "precious little snowflakes". No wonder so many kids think they are entitled. We expect nothing out of them.

My kids will be learning algebra, geometry, trig, world history and a foreign language or two.

Perhaps your kids will be working for one of them.

I love you when you're snarkey, Terry.

I have a 21 y/o son in college who still doesn't know what he wants to do when he grows up. On the other hand, Kate knew she wanted to work in some field of science since the 7th grade. Her family suspected as much by the time she was 5.

Students who hate school because they are bored beyond belief or frustrated to the point of tears, by bourgeoisie and Bolshiviks, or Montagues and Capulets, or algorithims or the periodic table of elements are dropping out of high school every day. Those that stay will receive a diploma but likely still won't be able to balance a checkbook and they'll still require additional training before being able to support themselves.

I find that totally unacceptable.

Not every American desires a 4 year college degree and not every student has the capacity to earn one worth more than the paper it's written on. We need plumbers and electricians and truck drivers and barbers and construction workers not to mention pharmacy technicians and dental assistants and medical assistants. Young adults lacking the ability or desire to spend an additional 4 to 7 years in classrooms deserve to be prepared for the future too.

Furthermore, I see no value in requiring all these courses when a signifcant portion of those who complete them need remediation prior to taking college level courses. Do you? College freshman would likely be much better prepared for college level course work if their high school teachers had the time and resources to devote to preparing them for it instead of the ineffective use of class time currently in fashion.

Students who hate school because they are bored beyond belief or frustrated to the point of tears, by bourgeoisie and Bolshiviks, or Montagues and Capulets, or algorithims or the periodic table of elements are dropping out of high school every day. Those that stay will receive a diploma but likely still won't be able to balance a checkbook and they'll still require additional training before being able to support themselves.

Too bad. What would life be like without having read a little Shakespeare? Is your math tough, little Johnny? Suck it up, most things worth knowing are difficult to wrap your head around.

So because our little snowflakes are bored, we should let them out of learning that useless English class? After all they speak good... .

Not every American desires a 4 year college degree and not every student has the capacity to earn one worth...

Nor did I say they do. I consider certain things, like geometry and biology, to be basic, like knowing how to tie a square knot (knots are hard, also!) and part of what ANY adult should know.

Failing to teach our kids these basics limits their possibilities as adults, insuring that they will likely be plumbers and dental hygienists and pill counters.

Rather than try and pull the underachievers up, it sounds like you would pull everyone else down.

Rather than try and pull the underachievers up, it sounds like you would pull everyone else down.

Said like a true elitist.

I am much more interested in providing the knowlege and skills necessary for our youngsters to be successful members of society than just making sure they jump through some set of predetermined academic hoops.

You're going to have to forgive me for my own lofty ideas because I honestly expect our students to enter the 9th grade already having learned basic geometry and prepared for algebra. If Johnny still hasn't mastered basic mathematics by the time he has entered 9th grade engineering is never going to be his field.

As far as proper use of the English language, you're going to have to also excuse my utter lack of confidence that WV public school teachers have the ability to provide such instruction. I personally have heard far too many of them, not to mention the news reporters and anchors produced by this education system, ask "where is that ____ at?" to think it even within the realm of possibility.

Said like a true elitist.

Spoken like a true anti-intellectual.

If Johnny hasn't mastered basic algebra by 9th grade, either somebody has failed him or he doesn't belong in the average school in the first place.

As far as proper use of the English language, you're going to have to also excuse my utter lack of confidence that WV public school teachers have the ability to provide such instruction. I personally have heard far too many of them, not to mention the news reporters and anchors produced by this education system, ask "where is that ____ at?" to think it even within the realm of possibility.

Steph, we know that you despise public schools because of personal reasons.

We expect far less from out kids than we did 50 years ago. Go look up curriculums from the fifties. Go look at what we expected from seventh graders at the turn of the century.

You would be shocked.

The bar (or academic hoop) was set a century ago or more. Since we are having difficulty getting our kids there, you advocate setting the bar lower.

I point that out, and I am, somehow, "elitist".

I am much more interested in providing the knowlege and skills necessary for our youngsters to be successful members of society than just making sure they jump through some set of predetermined academic hoops.

So am I. I just think that our youngsters need a bigger skill set than the one you advocate to be a successful member of society.

I notice you did nothing to refute my assertion that teachers in WV are incapable of providing adequate instruction in the English language.

You want to go back over 100 years and compare high school graduation requirements? Are you sure you wish to do that?

In 1900 less than 30 states & territories even had compulsory attendance laws at all. In those that did, enforcement was almost nonexistant and most only required students to attend until age 14. Less than 2% of students went on to college or university.

Another major difference,and we're talking HUGE difference between the public high schools of a century ago and those of today is a century ago school control was local. Bureaucrats and unions screwed the pooch, Terry.

If what Terry asserted were true, that interference by the federal government mandating what is to be taught to whom and for how long, would not our test scores be going up? It's amazing that as more subjects are mandated the federal government, test scores, graduation rates and overall success is going down.

If anything is lowering the standards and watering down our education system it is programs like no child left behind and race to the top.

The sad but simple truth is that when our children were educated locally, we did a much better job and that as government became more and more involved in our educational system, results have deteriorated.

The only other question I have is why Terry feels the need to call everyone who is not willing to bow down at the feet of the entire educational network Anti-intellectual? It’s as if he believes the only way one can learn anything is at an educational institution taught by tenured educational professionals in programs mandated by the federal government.

What gives Terry?

How about calculating the square footage of a roof before the eaves are built, requiring how to figure a hypotenuse?

Even math dummies know how to "square up" a building foundation using the 3-4-5 rule and batter boards. That's using "hypotenuseing" geometry but most don't know that it is.

Kinda like the "pool shark" in the the billard/pool hall. He is an expert at using geometry, trig, calculating angular movements, speed, torque, friction, angles of reflections, etc., ..... but the only math he is good at is counting the money he wins.

And iffen you want to be a good carpenter that builds houses with roofs of bout any shape, angle or design then you learn to use a Carpenter's Square, Tape Measure and a Level.

That Carpenter's Square will do all the "hypotenuseing" that you need to do to do the job.