Four Dirty Secrets about Clean Energy

by SamCogar Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:31 am

For years, the International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has demanded that the U.S. and other industrialized countries cut carbon emissions to 20% of 1990 levels by 2050.

While most countries claim to support huge carbon caps, in practice they have resisted implementing them. The reason is simple: fossil fuels provide nearly 90% of the energy we use--the cheap, abundant fuel that powers modern farming, manufacturing, construction, transportation, and hospitals. The use of fossil fuels is directly correlated to quality and quantity of life, particularly through the generation of electricity ; in the past two decades, hundreds of millions of people have risen out of poverty because energy production has tripled in India and quadrupled in China, almost exclusively from carbon-based fuels. To drastically restrict carbon-based fuels, countries have conceded in practice, would be an economic disaster.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/06/03/four-dirty-secrets-about-clean-energy/

Dirty Secret #1: If “clean energy” were actually cheaper than fossil fuels, it wouldn’t need a policy.

Dirty Secret #2: Clean energy advocates want to force us to use solar, wind, and biofuels, even though there is no evidence these can power modern civilization.

Dirty Secret #3: There are promising carbon-free energy sources--hydroelectric and nuclear--but “clean energy” policies oppose them as not “green” enough.

Dirty Secret #4: The environmentalists behind clean energy policy are anti-energy.

by **ohio county** Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:07 pm

New Martinsville, WV owns its own hydro plant. Permitting required nearly ten years. The plant is nearly invisible. It runs down two or three stories below the river bottom. River water falls on the turbine, turning the turbine blades. The turbine is arrayed more or less opposite to the array of an electric motor. An electric motor, of course, uses direct current to turn the rotor whereas a hydroelectric turbine uses some other form of energy to turn the turbine blades producing electric current.

New Martinsville has constructed and paid for a new city building and a new branch of North Panhandle Community College. City residents pay a little less for electricity and the city sells a pretty hefty portion of the production to the grid.

The city attorney formed a corporation to sell hydro plants nationally and left the area. Local boy Tom Loehr ran for the state senate, won, was named State Treasurer by Gaston Caperton, and now has sold a power plant burning garbage to the City of Charleston.

Hydro is good. It works. Its clean. People who get involved in it are scam artists.

by SamCogar Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:32 pm

ohio county wrote:The plant is nearly invisible. It runs down two or three stories below the river bottom. River water falls on the turbine, turning the turbine blades.

Jim, I am curious, is the water pumped or does it flow out and back into the river somewhere below the power plant?

And uh, did you copy part of that from somewhere?

by **ohio county** Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:23 pm

No, I did not copy any of that and would not be surprised if it was incorrect.

I'm thinking they pump it up and back into the normal flow of the river. But apparently you know I'm talking out of an orifice other than my mouth. I worked for a city councilman for a while and knew lots of salesmen who called on the hyrdo plant. There's only two or three per shift and fewer than twenty permanent employees...

by **ohio county** Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:37 pm

I think Tom Loehr can be googled whereas the city attorney, one Michael Francis, sold his practice to Jackson & Kelly. I had hired him to press a case for me. Jackson & Kelly called me one day saying he'd failed to prosecute it and there was an ethical lapse. Did I want to pursue the case? I said, "Sure". I didn't want a lot of money but felt I'd been harmed. The Circuit Court judge, a guy I knew, ruled that I'd failed to pursue the case (I was sandwiched between two trucks). Jackson & Kelly offered to represent me (gratis) before the Supreme Court who also ruled that I'd failed to pursue the case. Finally, Jackson & Kelly offered to help me put together a complaint to the ethics committee of the state bar association. I figured I was a two-time loser and asked J & K to drop it. They did.

by SamCogar Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:15 am

OK, now I see what you did that caused an "interupt" in my thinking when reading your post. Very Happy

An electric motor, of course, uses direct current to turn the rotor whereas a ~~hydroelectric~~ turbine uses some other form of energy to turn the turbine blades producing electric current.

And Jim, me thinks your "Lawyering story" is played out dozens of times every day in WV.

I figured out a long time ago that the "winners" of a big percentage of potential or pending Court Cases in WV are determined before the Case is ever presented to a Jury. Just like it appears to me that your potential litigation results were "pre-decided" for you.

In my opinion it is the result of a long time embedded "culture of corruption" involving Officers of the Courts, ..... from local Police up to the State Supreme Court.

You will have more "winning" successes at attempting to "pee up a rope" than you will if you attempt to bring suite and/or "win" ..... when certain people or parties are involved.

That is, unless you have the resource$ to appeal your case to a higher Court outside of WV.

by Aaron Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:58 am

The only place you can appeal your case from a West Virginia state court outside of West Virginia is directly to the United States Supreme Court. You cannot appeal a decision from the West Virginia Supreme Court to the 4th Circuit in Richmond.

by SamCogar Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:48 am

The United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit is a federal court located in Richmond, Virginia, with appellate jurisdiction over the district courts in the following districts:

District of Maryland
Eastern District of North Carolina
Middle District of North Carolina
Western District of North Carolina
District of South Carolina
Eastern District of Virginia
Western District of Virginia
Northern District of West Virginia
Southern District of West Virginia

Lewis F. Powell, Jr. Courthouse
The court is based at the Lewis F. Powell, Jr. U.S. Courthouse in Richmond, Virginia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals_for_the_Fourth_Circuit

by Aaron Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:17 am

Those distgricts courts are federal courts Sam, not state courts. The 4th Circuit does not hear appeals from West Virginia State Circuit courts. If you fail in any West Virginia court system, you appeal it to the West Virginia Supreme Court, not the Northern or Southern District Federal Court.

If the West Virginia Supreme Court either denies your appeal or they hear your case and rule against you, your next and only recourse is to appeal directly to the United States Supreme Court and hope they hear it as they did in the Caperton/Massey case. If the United States Supreme Court refuses to hear your case, you are done.

There is a difference between state and federal courts and while I'm not suprised that you jumped right in quoting something even though you couldn't be more wrong, I am a little suprised that you don't know the difference between state and federal courts.

The United States courts of appeals (or circuit courts) are the intermediate appellate courts of the United States federal court system. A court of appeals decides appeals from the district courts within its federal judicial circuit, and in some instances from other designated federal courts and administrative agencies.

United States court of appeals

Perhaps you should educate yourself here.

by **ohio county** Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:13 pm

Sorry to divert your attention(s).

Hydroelectric is clean and profitable. It should be installed everywhere that the Army Corps of Engineers has failed to stop moving water. That seems to be their motive.

by Aaron Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:59 pm

Sorry, I wasn't trying to hijack your thread Jimmy. When Sam's as blatantly wrong as he is here, I feel an obligation to point it out.

As to your post, I'm not sure what you mean by "it should be installed everywhere that the Army Corps of Engineers has failed to stop moving water." Can you explain?

I know that they're reinstalling hydrolic at both the new river at the foot of Gauley Mountain and then on the Kanawha a few miles down at Lower Falls but I've also read of economic damage from hydroelectric, especially in the west.

If that's the case, how is it always clean and profitable?

by SamCogar Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:49 am

To file a civil case (that is, "sue someone") in federal district court, a person must have a reason why a federal court, instead of a state court, should adjudicate the dispute. By law, the bases for federal jurisdiction (the power to hear and decide a case) are:

* United States as a plaintiff;

* United States (or in certain cases a federal officer or employee) as a defendant;

* "Federal question," which means the complaint is based on a federal law (which may be the Constitution or a statute);

* "Admiralty" or "maritime" jurisidiction, which, very generally, applies to and governs disputes which arise out of acts occurring at sea or in other "navigable waters" within the United States.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/United_States_district_court

by SamCogar Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:26 am

ohio county wrote:Sorry to divert your attention(s).

Hydroelectric is clean and profitable. It should be installed everywhere that the Army Corps of Engineers has failed to stop moving water. (I liked that, very cleverly stated.) That seems to be their motive.

Jim, my apology for acknowledgeing the "interrupt" from the know-it-all.

I agree with you about hydroelectric. Several times within the past 30 years there has been attempts to get turbines installed at the Sutton Dam, and the Summersville Dam also ...... without success.

The Corps don't want anyone messing around on their turf and besides, AEP and/or Mon Power don't want to hafta buy power off of anyone.

Iffen you were making and selling "widgets" ........ you wouldn't like being forced to buy "widgets" offa someone else to sell along with your "widgets", now would you?

by Aaron Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:04 am

SamCogar wrote:
To file a civil case (that is, "sue someone") in federal district court, a person must have a reason why a federal court, instead of a state court, should adjudicate the dispute. By law, the bases for federal jurisdiction (the power to hear and decide a case) are:

* United States as a plaintiff;

* United States (or in certain cases a federal officer or employee) as a defendant;

* "Federal question," which means the complaint is based on a federal law (which may be the Constitution or a statute);

* "Admiralty" or "maritime" jurisidiction, which, very generally, applies to and governs disputes which arise out of acts occurring at sea or in other "navigable waters" within the United States.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/United_States_district_court

You proved my point DA? Rolling Eyes

Face it Sammy ole boy, on this subject you don't know what the hell you're talking about and it absolutely kills you that I know more about it then you do.

Razz

Now tuck away your wounded ego because you are wrong on this one and take a look at this link which compares state and federal courts. If you look about 2/3rds down, you see under Types of Cases Heard the following...

State courts are the final arbiters of state laws and constitutions. Their interpretation of federal law or the U.S. Constitution may be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Supreme Court may choose to hear or not to hear such cases.

If you will read the entire document, you will see under Structure under the state court system it states Only certain cases are eligible for review by the U.S. Supreme Court. No where does it state that these courts can be appealed to the 4th circuit in Richmond so get your panties out of a wad and educate yourself.

Geeze

by Aaron Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:32 am

SamCogar wrote:I agree with you about hydroelectric. Several times within the past 30 years there has been attempts to get turbines installed at the Sutton Dam, and the Summersville Dam also ...... without success.

Really? You sure about that Sammy boy?

In 1992 the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission issued a license to the city of Summersville, West Virginia to harness the dam’s energy. The project was developed by the Gauley River Power Partners. In February 1999, the Gauley River Power Partners broke ground for the $53-million Summersville Hydroelectric Project on the wild and scenic Gauley River about 45 miles east of Charleston, West Virginia.

A two-unit powerhouse was constructed on the right bank of the dam and connected to the existing outlet structure by a 17 ft diameter steel penstock. A 10 mile long, 69,000 volt electrical line ties the powerhouse to the utility transmission grid. Two vertical Francis turbines rated at 60,000 hp at a net head of 260 ft discharge water at a rate of 2,200 cu ft/s. The direct-drive synchronous generators are rated at 44,000 MW. IMPSA International from Mendoza, Argentina, supplied the hydroelectric turbines, generators, electrical controls, and switchgear. Black and Veatch Construction from Kansas City, Missouri, was the EPC Contractor responsible for the design and construction of the project’s civil works and installation of the hydroelectric turbines, generators, and other mechanical equipment.

Kleinschmidt provided services as Owner’s Engineer, responsible for the preparation of performance specifications for the turbine-generator equipment procurement and construction of the Project, and for the evaluation of bids from the turbine-generator vendors and design-build contractors. Kleinschmidt drafted the Operating Plan and Operating Agreement between the Licensee and COE, reviewed EPC Contractor developed construction drawings, monitored construction activities, designed DO mitigation measures, and advised the Owner in development of project recreation facilities for operation and use by the National Park Service in the Gauley River National Recreational Area. Kleinschmidt also conducted surveys to monitor construction interference with recreational users during the two year construction period, and detail recreational usage surveys during the first four years of commercial operation.

Summersville Dam has been producing lectricity for a few years now. In fact, Gwen Hagaman of G.H. Bailey Company wrote a book about it. Check it out here.

As for Sutton Dam, it's only a matter of time.

Sutton Dam on the Elk River near the town of Sutton, WV, was constructed in 1957 by the US Army Corps of Engineers Huntington
District for the purposes of flood control, water supply, recreation and fish and wildlife enhancement.

Sutton Hydroelectric Company LLC has received a Preliminary Permit to explore the development of this site for electrical
generation.

In October of 2007 Brookfield Power US Holdings America had acquired all the ownership interests of Sutton Hydroelectric
Company and continued to pursue the development of the project. Subsequently the project has been reacquired by Advanced
Hydro Solutions LLC.

source

Feel free to remove your foot from your mouth anytime Sammy ole boy.

Razz

by SamCogar Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:26 am

Aaron wrote:
SamCogar wrote:
To file a civil case (that is, "sue someone") in federal district court, a person must have a reason why a federal court, instead of a state court, should adjudicate the dispute. By law, the bases for federal jurisdiction (the power to hear and decide a case) are:

* United States as a plaintiff;

* United States (or in certain cases a federal officer or employee) as a defendant;

* "Federal question," which means the complaint is based on a federal law (which may be the Constitution or a statute);

* "Admiralty" or "maritime" jurisidiction, which, very generally, applies to and governs disputes which arise out of acts occurring at sea or in other "navigable waters" within the United States.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/United_States_district_court

You proved my point DA?

Face it Sammy ole boy, on this subject you don't know what the hell you're talking about and it absolutely kills you that I know more about it then you do.

Now tuck away your wounded ego because you are wrong on this one and take a look at this link which compares state and federal courts. If you look about 2/3rds down, you see under Types of Cases Heard the following...

State courts are the final arbiters of state laws and constitutions. Their interpretation of federal law or the U.S. Constitution may be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Supreme Court may choose to hear or not to hear such cases.

If you will read the entire document, you will see under Structure under the state court system it states Only certain cases are eligible for review by the U.S. Supreme Court. No where does it state that these courts can be appealed to the 4th circuit in Richmond so get your panties out of a wad and educate yourself.

Geeze

The only thing that has been proven is that you are stupid and that's because you have a "one track mind".

My original statement was, to wit:

SamCogar wrote:That is, unless you have the resource$ to appeal your case to a higher Court outside of WV.

And your stupid response was, to wit:

Aaron wrote:The only place you can appeal your case from a West Virginia state court outside of West Virginia is directly to the United States Supreme Court. You cannot appeal a decision from the West Virginia Supreme Court to the 4th Circuit in Richmond.

First of all, there is no "West Virginia state court outside of West Virginia", ..... they are all situated within the State.

Secondly, concerning my statement, the United States Supreme Court is "a higher Court outside of WV", .... is it not?

And thirdly, ..... and after the fact of my above statement, ...... if Jim's complaint could be deemed a "Federal question", ...... or a question of "Admiralty", .... then he could bring suite in the Federal Districct Court of Northern West Virginia. And iffen he didn't get satisfaction there he could appeal it to 4th Circuit Court in Richmond.

And don't be posting any CYA crapolla about what you decided I actually meant ...... by what I posted in my above cited statement.

by Aaron Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:02 pm

Sam, I don't know if your ignorant or just trying to run your mouth but you really need to go back and re-read this thread. You are wrong about the law in what you've said-specifically that a case from a state court could be appealed to the 4th Circuit in Richmond-and you were wrong about the dams at Sutton and Summersville-one has hydropower, the other is getting it and no amount of backpeddling, weaslewording or bullshit you try to throw out there will cover it up.

You trying to twist my words around proves how desparate you truly are and how far you are willing to go to look right when you couldn't be any more wrong. Sorry dude but nothing will change the facts. You screwed the pooch on this thread, was wrong on at least two accounts and that's the facts. The best thing you can do is tuck your tail between your legs and let this topic die as any further comments by you will only serve to make you look more ignorant.

Razz

by SamCogar Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:12 am

Aaron wrote:Sam, I don't know if your ignorant or just trying to run your mouth but you really need to go back and re-read this thread. You are wrong about the law in what you've said-specifically that a case from a state court could be appealed to the 4th Circuit in Richmond-

If, when you stated in the above, ... "a state court", you were implying/meaning ... "a State of WV court", ..... then your comment was the result of your stupidity or an intentional blatant falsehood. But probably both because one's stupidity is usually the "driving force" that exacerbates one's propensity for lying.

If, when you stated in the above, ... "a state court", you were implying/meaning ... "an in-state court", ..... then "YES", the Federal District Court of Northern West Virginia is an in-state court and it is a Federal Court which the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, which is located in Richmond, Va., has appellate jurisdiction over. Given said, then “YES”, a case from an in-state court, either the Federal District Court of Northern West Virginia or the Federal District Court of Southern West Virginia, could be appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit in Richmond.

Dumbass, do you think it is called the “Court of Appeals” simply because they couldn’t think of anything else to call it?

Aaron wrote:and you were wrong about the dams at Sutton and Summersville-one has hydropower, the other is getting it and no amount of backpeddling, weaslewording or bullshit you try to throw out there will cover it up.

Summersville Dam has been producing lectricity for a few years now.
As for Sutton Dam, it's only a matter of time.

Another dumbass statement, ….. I was not wrong about the Sutton Dam. But it appears I was about the Summersville Dam, ……. so now you can gloat and brag forever about pointing out a mistake I made. YUP, you can now partner with Ziggy because he pointed out my mistake of confusing the WVP&PC Dam near Mt. Storm with the Mt. Storm Dam and Reservoir that was built for power generation.

Aaron wrote:You trying to twist my words around proves how desparate you truly are and how far you are willing to go to look right when you couldn't be any more wrong.

Bullshit, ….. I never twisted anything around, …that was exactly what you stated.

If you were actually as intelligent and learned as you think and claim you are ……. then you wouldn’t be habitually making so many dumbass and stupid mistakes. And what’s worse, …. you don’t even “learn from your mistakes” after they have been pointed out to you, ..... you prefer opting for employing your “exacerbated propensity”.

Aaron, you really can't browbeat and/or force someone into believing that you are something that you are not. Evil or Very Mad

by Aaron Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:27 am

Good for you Sam for partially admitting you were wrong. Perhaps you're making progress after all.

And I don't know how many times I have to tell you, I don't need to browbeat anyone into thinking I'm something I'm not as 1) I really don't care what someone else thinks and B) I know how intelligent I am (42 on the Wonderlic) and III) I know my weaknesses (editing)as well as my strengths.

I also know some things about you, most notably that when proven wrong, you get hissy. When you're proven wrong multiple times, well this thread is a good example. You really shouldn't let it bother you Sam, there's nothing wrong with not being the smartest person in the room.

by Aaron Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:36 am

After Sam's next sissy boy rant, I'm wondering if we can get back on topic regarding Hydro. I'd really like to hear Jim's thoughts on my last question posed to him and I wonder if he has any idea of what the cost of a run of the river hyrdo plant cost.

by **ohio county** Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:31 pm

I've also read of economic damage from hydroelectric, especially in the west. If that's the case, how is it always clean and profitable?

I don't know what that damage is. As an old whitewater canoe head, I am struck by the fact that the Corps of Engineers wants to stop all moving water.

That, I believe, is all that hydro is: water that falls onto turbine blades with a coil that is opposite in electric polarity from the balanced blades. My knowledge of the particulars is very spotty. My opinion of the costs (both environmental and fiduciary) is very low. I'd look into it further if I wasn't off marching to Blair Mountain...

by Aaron Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:04 am

Most of the environmental damage I could find Jim was from large dams placing vast amounts of earth under water. Seems some complain that destroys wildlife although I think it forces them up hill more then it eliminates them. I guess on some streams where you have migrating aquatic life it could do harm but I think the good far outweighs the bad.

I am really interested in this run of the river type of hydro. Seems to me that as ever major city is located on a waterway meaning every major city has access to cheat, renewable energy which to me would bring out the greenies.

It makes me wonder why were not hearing more about this from cities up and down the Ohio, Kanawha, Potamic, Little Kanawha and every other river that flows at the pace required.

by SamCogar Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:34 am

Aaron wrote:I don't need to browbeat anyone into thinking I'm something I'm not as
1) I really don't care what someone else thinks
and
B) I know how intelligent I am (42 on the Wonderlic) and III).

Aaron, I apologize for all criticizing/defaming comments I have made to or about you.

I now understand the futility in my doing so.

by Aaron Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:15 am

No need to apologize Sam as I haven't taken anything you've said serious in over a year. About the only thing you could provide any insight on is if there's any decent diners to eat at around Burnsville. We were going to try the one at Exit 79 but it was too crowded. Is it any good?

by SamCogar Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:48 am

We were going to try the one at Exit 79 but it was too crowded. Is it any good?

I wouldn't know, haven't been in it in years.

I am at the age that the Long John Silvers and the Chinese restaurant in Weston are my favorite take-out eateries. And Pizza Hut in Glenville every now n' then.

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