Re: Quote of the Day

by TerryRC Tue May 06, 2008 12:21 pm

What's sad is you actually believe that.

No. What is sad is that you don't.

Read some Jefferson or Madison. Read some Franklin. Read some Paine.

Most of the founding fathers specifically pointed out that this country was NOT founded on christian principles.

Read a book, period.

Don't worry, Aaron. You aren't the first to be lazy about your own history.

by TerryRC Tue May 06, 2008 12:28 pm

The constitution is a godless document. It mentions neither God, Jesus nor Christianity. It does however have a provision against requiring specific religious ideas as a qualification for office.

Article VI, Section 3
"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Hmmm...

Treaty of Tripoli, article 11

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen..."

Interesting...

"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years." - John Adams

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" [Letter to von Humboldt, 1813]. - Thomas Jefferson

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

Doesn't sound like the founders though of us as a christian nation.

http://bmccreations.com/one_nation/nation.html

So tell me again about how we were founded as a christian nation?

Then tell me what crow tastes like.

by **SheikBen** Tue May 06, 2008 1:07 pm

TerryRC,

Against your quotes can be cited a hundred sentences within state constitutions to show that while a national religion has been clearly rejected from the beginning, neither was secularization imposed by our founders as perhaps you would have liked.

by **Stephanie** Tue May 06, 2008 2:51 pm

SheikBen wrote:TerryRC,

Against your quotes can be cited a hundred sentences within state constitutions to show that while a national religion has been clearly rejected from the beginning, neither was secularization imposed by our founders as perhaps you would have liked.

Hey Michael,

Terry is obviously very capable of speaking for himself. I would like to reiterate what he is saying though.....this country was not founded on "Christian principles". Many of them didn't consider themselves Christian, they even wrote about their beliefs. Most of them were deists.

They had predecessors to look to for example. Rhode Island was founded specifically as a place of religious freedom by Roger Williams after having been driven out by the zealots in Mass. Bay Colony.

by **ohio county** Tue May 06, 2008 3:18 pm

Maryland was widely known as a Catholic haven. Pennsylvania was full of Quakers. There were as many of those demanding preachy types as there were deists.

by **Stephanie** Tue May 06, 2008 3:31 pm

ohio county wrote:Maryland was widely known as a Catholic haven. Pennsylvania was full of Quakers. There were as many of those demanding preachy types as there were deists.

I think that most of us can agree there is a world of difference between Quakers and Catholics and the fundamentalist Christians of today. I've never heard a Quaker, for example, demand we obliterate another race of people to protect "God's chosen".

by Aaron Tue May 06, 2008 4:03 pm

Say what you like, over 80% of our founding fathers identified themself as what we would term 'christian', including Thomas Jefferson. He proclaimed in a letter to Benjamin Rush...

"I am a real Christian...sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others." Thus he considered himself a Christian, albeit an unorthodox and nuanced one."

This is but one eaisly a thousand quotes that confirm exacty what I am saying.

Nice try though TC.

Very Happy

by TerryRC Wed May 07, 2008 4:39 am

Say what you like, over 80% of our founding fathers identified themself as what we would term 'christian', including Thomas Jefferson. He proclaimed in a letter to Benjamin Rush...

"I am a real Christian...sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others." Thus he considered himself a Christian, albeit an unorthodox and nuanced one."

This is but one eaisly a thousand quotes that confirm exacty what I am saying.

Nice try though TC.

It confirms NOTHING.

The majority of us, at the moment, are white in this country.

Are we a "white" nation?

Just because 80% of the founders were christians, doesn't mean that we were founded as a "christian" nation.

This is evident in the fact the the founders bothered with the 1st amendment. We have seen that the COTUS is a godless document and that our biggest laws are NOT based on the 10 C's.

How then, were we founded as a christian nation? Since you have provided no argument to back that assertion up, we are left wondering.

Your logic sucks, Aaron, and you won't see the truth even when people hit you in the face with it.

I am starting to think you are a troll.

by **SheikBen** Wed May 07, 2008 5:26 am

Stephanie wrote:
SheikBen wrote:TerryRC,

Against your quotes can be cited a hundred sentences within state constitutions to show that while a national religion has been clearly rejected from the beginning, neither was secularization imposed by our founders as perhaps you would have liked.

Hey Michael,

Terry is obviously very capable of speaking for himself. I would like to reiterate what he is saying though.....this country was not founded on "Christian principles". Many of them didn't consider themselves Christian, they even wrote about their beliefs. Most of them were deists.

No doubt, Stephanie. You may have noticed that I have never called the United States a Christian nation, and I will not now.

However, the various references to both God and morality, in public speeches, on public monuments, and in public law (again, see a litany of state constitutions, particularly in but not limited to the preambles) proves that this nation was not originally intolerant towards public displays and public expressions of religion either.

They had predecessors to look to for example. Rhode Island was founded specifically as a place of religious freedom by Roger Williams after having been driven out by the zealots in Mass. Bay Colony.

by Aaron Wed May 07, 2008 6:16 am

TerryRC wrote:Say what you like, over 80% of our founding fathers identified themself as what we would term 'christian', including Thomas Jefferson. He proclaimed in a letter to Benjamin Rush...

"I am a real Christian...sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others." Thus he considered himself a Christian, albeit an unorthodox and nuanced one."

This is but one eaisly a thousand quotes that confirm exacty what I am saying.

Nice try though TC.

It confirms NOTHING.

The majority of us, at the moment, are white in this country.

Are we a "white" nation?

Just because 80% of the founders were christians, doesn't mean that we were founded as a "christian" nation.

This is evident in the fact the the founders bothered with the 1st amendment. We have seen that the COTUS is a godless document and that our biggest laws are NOT based on the 10 C's.

How then, were we founded as a christian nation? Since you have provided no argument to back that assertion up, we are left wondering.

Your logic sucks, Aaron, and you won't see the truth even when people hit you in the face with it.

I am starting to think you are a troll.

It's not my logic TC, it's simple fact. Yes, the constitution is a godless document. Just becasue it doesn't mention God doesn't mean it wasn't founded on Christian morals and teachings. That is where our basic FREEDOM'S come from. I'm sorry you can't comprehend that. Not suprised, just sorry.

And fyi, this 'troll' has read your tripe long enough to know that when you start name calling, that is your admission that you're wrong.

Thanks!!!

Very Happy

by **Stephanie** Wed May 07, 2008 7:31 am

No doubt, Stephanie. You may have noticed that I have never called the United States a Christian nation, and I will not now.

However, the various references to both God and morality, in public speeches, on public monuments, and in public law (again, see a litany of state constitutions, particularly in but not limited to the preambles) proves that this nation was not originally intolerant towards public displays and public expressions of religion either.

I agree with you there, Michael. COTUS promises freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. I think there are an awful lot of secular humanists and atheists out there that would like to see that changed.

by TerryRC Wed May 07, 2008 8:33 am

Just becasue it doesn't mention God doesn't mean it wasn't founded on Christian morals and teachings. That is where our basic FREEDOM'S come from.

Our freedoms do not come come from god, they come from those people strong enough to fight for them.

And fyi, this 'troll' has read your tripe long enough to know that when you start name calling, that is your admission that you're wrong.

You are doing it wrong...

A "troll", on the internet, is someone that makes inflammatory comments to irritate others and hijack actual debate.

You aren't very hip, are you.

So, answer the question:

The majority of us, at the moment, are white in this country.

Are we a "white" nation?

Just because 80% of the founders were christians, doesn't mean that we were founded as a "christian" nation.

Can you provide one single morsel of evidence that we were founded as a "christian nation"?

I though not. Pick up your Legos, it is adult time now.

by Aaron Wed May 07, 2008 2:39 pm

The majority is white, yes, but not for much longer. By 2025 I believe, the white man will be a minority in this country.

And if you want me to answer the question, you'll have to explain what you mean by a "white nation".

by **ohio county** Wed May 07, 2008 3:03 pm

I think that most of us can agree there is a world of difference between Quakers and Catholics and the fundamentalist Christians of today.

Amen. Those stiff-necked Puritans burned witches.

by **SheikBen** Wed May 07, 2008 9:01 pm

Stop me if you've heard this one:

A preacher asks his congregation, "Now, let's say McCain, Clinton, and Obama were in a plane and it crashed. Who would be saved?"

A voice in the back jumped in, "The country!"

by TerryRC Thu May 08, 2008 5:10 am

...freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

You can't be free to practice your own religion unless you are free of others.

I submit the two are intertwined.

by TerryRC Thu May 08, 2008 5:14 am

The majority is white, yes, but not for much longer. By 2025 I believe, the white man will be a minority in this country.

And if you want me to answer the question, you'll have to explain what you mean by a "white nation".

Explain what you mean by a "christian nation" first.

You state that we were founded as one because most of the FF's were some flavor of christian. I was just illustrating how foolish that assertion is.

Face it, if we were founded as a "christian nation", they wouldn't have bothered with the 1st Amendment. If we were founded on christian principles, it would be illegal to worship other gods and to disrespect a parent.

Face it, Aaron. You have no argument.

by **SheikBen** Thu May 08, 2008 5:16 am

TerryRC wrote:...freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

You can't be free to practice your own religion unless you are free of others.

I submit the two are intertwined.

Eh? How do you mean?

by TerryRC Thu May 08, 2008 5:18 am

How can I practice my faith if you make me follow yours?

"Freedom from religion" is part and parcel of "freedom of religion".

by **Stephanie** Thu May 08, 2008 6:42 am

TerryRC wrote:How can I practice my faith if you make me follow yours?

"Freedom from religion" is part and parcel of "freedom of religion".

No, I disagree. The fact that there are religious symbols or text on our currency, or displayed in our public buildings, isn't forcing anyone to follow a particular religion. All that sort of thing does is expose people to a religion.

Look, some people don't particularly care for homosexuality. Some people don't want to think about it, much less hear about it or witness homosexual displays of affection etc. However, gays and lesbians have the right to live their lives and I support that, our Constitution supports that. The fact that we now see and hear more about homosexuals isn't forcing anyone to be gay. We're just to some degree exposed to their lifestyle.

by TerryRC Thu May 08, 2008 7:17 am

No, I disagree. The fact that there are religious symbols or text on our currency, or displayed in our public buildings, isn't forcing anyone to follow a particular religion. All that sort of thing does is expose people to a religion.

I think it forces tacit acknowledgment. It gives sanction to religion and, while thinly veiled, particularly judeo-christianity.

Look at the altered Pledge. Since I'm not sure if I am under god, am I part of this nation?

Laws and ruling should unite us, not divide us.

Look, some people don't particularly care for homosexuality. Some people don't want to think about it, much less hear about it or witness homosexual displays of affection etc. However, gays and lesbians have the right to live their lives and I support that, our Constitution supports that. The fact that we now see and hear more about homosexuals isn't forcing anyone to be gay. We're just to some degree exposed to their lifestyle.

Not to hear the religious right. There are even people on this board that have stated that legalizing gay marriage would be forcing them to accept something that is against their religious beliefs, that the government would be forcing its "will" upon them.

How is the government recognizing religion any different, using that argument?

by **Stephanie** Thu May 08, 2008 7:34 am

I don't feel divided by "in god we trust" or "under god". I see that as a cultural thing, and those trends shift over time. Perhaps if I were old enough to remember the pledge before they changed it I'd feel differently, I don't know. I see it as harmless.

I don't think the government should force anybody to do something they don't want to, or believe in. If the government sanctions "gay marriage", will that mean that gay Catholics will be able to sue priests who refuse to marry them? Will it mean that a fundamentalist Christian photographer will be forced to work gay weddings?

Marriage is primarily a religious event. I'm not religious so a judge friend of mine performed our ceremony. Gay marriages have never been recognized in this country. I think they are demanding something quite silly when they demand "marriage" over "civil unions".

by Aaron Thu May 08, 2008 7:50 am

TerryRC wrote:The majority is white, yes, but not for much longer. By 2025 I believe, the white man will be a minority in this country.

And if you want me to answer the question, you'll have to explain what you mean by a "white nation".

Explain what you mean by a "christian nation" first.

You state that we were founded as one because most of the FF's were some flavor of christian. I was just illustrating how foolish that assertion is.

Face it, if we were founded as a "christian nation", they wouldn't have bothered with the 1st Amendment. If we were founded on christian principles, it would be illegal to worship other gods and to disrespect a parent.

Face it, Aaron. You have no argument.

I said we were a nation founded on Christian principals TC. If we weren't founded on Christian principals, then exactly what principals were we founded on.

by Aaron Thu May 08, 2008 7:52 am

Stephanie wrote:I don't feel divided by "in god we trust" or "under god". I see that as a cultural thing, and those trends shift over time. Perhaps if I were old enough to remember the pledge before they changed it I'd feel differently, I don't know. I see it as harmless.

I don't think the government should force anybody to do something they don't want to, or believe in. If the government sanctions "gay marriage", will that mean that gay Catholics will be able to sue priests who refuse to marry them? Will it mean that a fundamentalist Christian photographer will be forced to work gay weddings?

Marriage is primarily a religious event. I'm not religious so a judge friend of mine performed our ceremony. Gay marriages have never been recognized in this country. I think they are demanding something quite silly when they demand "marriage" over "civil unions".

Once again, you agree with me.

by TerryRC Thu May 08, 2008 8:01 am

I said we were a nation founded on Christian principals TC. If we weren't founded on Christian principals, then exactly what principals were we founded on.

You didn't answer my question. You stated we were founded on christian principles. Provide some evidence.

We were founded on many ideas that came from the Age of Enlightenment.

What this nation was primarily founded on was the rule of common law. This does not come from "christian values" and, in fact, predates christianity.

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