Re: 31,000 Scientists Rejecting Global Warming To be Named

by ziggy Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:10 pm

Stephanie wrote:So what about the people who can't afford to be so responsible?

If they can afford to be responsible enough to pay what they have for heating oil or natural gas these past 35 years, they can be responsible enough to make their homes more energy efficient now- so that they won't have to pay through the nose for another 35 years. Improving the energy efficiency of our homes pays for itself in the form of avoided costs for heating (and cooling).

They should freeze because environmentalists are preventing us all from utilizing our natural resources? I don't think so

I don't think so either. What, specifically, are "environmentalists" doing that is about to cause anyone to freeze to death?

Is there any assurance that oil prices would be any lower if we drilled every oil well anyone wants to drill anywhere? The oil companies have not even suggested that they would be lower.

Is there any assurance that oil prices would be any lower if we built every refinery Aaron or anyone else can think of anywhere? The oil companies have not even suggested that either.

by **Stephanie** Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:21 pm

Ziggy,

Environmental extremists are limiting the energy supply in this country. Supply and demand.....there isn't enough supply to meet the demand and so prices skyrocket.

If an individual or family can't afford a $4000 heating bill this winter, they aren't going to be able to afford $10000 in renovations plus the cost of heating.

How do you address the problems faced by people who rent? Who is going to help them when their landlords decide they can't afford (or don't want to pay) for thousands of dollars in new windows, insulation, furnaces etc? There are plenty of people with few options, or no options.

by ziggy Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:39 pm

Stephanie wrote:Ziggy,

Environmental extremists are limiting the energy supply in this country. Supply and demand.....there isn't enough supply to meet the demand and so prices skyrocket.

I have watched those Congressional hearings with the oil company executives. That is not what the oil companies are saying. They do not say that there is not enough supply, and they do not say that the price of oil products is related to demand. Instead, they just talk in circles and say nothing.

If an individual or family can't afford a $4000 heating bill this winter, they aren't going to be able to afford $10000 in renovations plus the cost of heating.

They can now, and they could have 35 years ago- if they had but looked ahead past the next load of fuel.

How do you address the problems faced by people who rent? Who is going to help them when their landlords decide they can't afford (or don't want to pay) for thousands of dollars in new windows, insulation, furnaces etc? There are plenty of people with few options, or no options

Our daughter in into this almost precise situation now. She lives near Allentown PA. And the costs of living there, including housing, are beyond my ability to comprehend- as they relate to a family of four with a $40,000 income being able to pay for rental housing, utilities, food and transportation, etc. But she insists on living there, and so there is not much I can advise her other than to get a higher paying job, or move back to WV where housing and utilities do not consume so much of one's budget.

What will it take to make people open thier eyes to economic realities? I do not know. It is a question as old as economics. Some of us just have to learn the hard way. And that can be costly.

by **Stephanie** Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:48 pm

So you're answer to their problems is too freaking bad?

I don't buy it.

You know I like you. In fact, you know I like you very, very much, so please don't be too offended by this statement.

You're far too much of a socialist to be speaking honestly here.

by shermangeneral Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:50 pm

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/first-major-us-refinery-30/story.aspx?guid=%7B75BAC710-5FA4-401F-B120-F6B76321A36A%7D

Well Steph who is blocking this one?

by ziggy Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:08 pm

Stephanie wrote:So you're answer to their problems is too freaking bad? .

No. That is not what I said. I said that people need to be smart about their personal economics, and which includes decisions about their homes.

I don't buy it.

You know I like you. In fact, you know I like you very, very much, so please don't be too offended by this statement

Jeez. I am not sure even that Ms. Ziggy likes me that much. Embarassed

You're far too much of a socialist to be speaking honestly here.

Stephanie, you would do well to pay more attention to what I actually say that to what Aaron says about me. I do not deny being a socialist- especially in matters where our economic system denies those at the bottom of the economic pyramid control of their own loves.

We are all socialists of one kind or another. But being a socialist does not preclude expecting people to exercise personal responsibility on matters that are under their control.

by **Stephanie** Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:15 pm

Are you trying to convince me this is a done deal?

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iks-EeSO5tpcA_9UTgtAshOaVVZAD9136DOG0

S.D. county approves rezoning for new oil refinery

By DIRK LAMMERS – Jun 4, 2008

ELK POINT, S.D. (AP) — Voters in this mostly agricultural corner of the Midwest have approved a proposal to build the first new U.S. oil refinery in more than 30 years.

Union County residents voted 58 percent to 42 percent Tuesday to endorse the rezoning of almost 3,300 acres of pristine farm land north of Elk Point for the oil refinery.

Texas-based Hyperion Resources requested the rezoning for the $10 billion refinery, billed as a potential step toward national energy independence. The proposal has been a contentious issue in the southeast corner of South Dakota, with supporters citing economic development benefits and opponents voicing environmental and quality-of-life concerns.

The ballot measure garnered solid support in the southern part of Union County. Most rural precincts strongly rejected the rezoning, but they didn't have the population to overcome support in the county's largest towns.

Preston Phillips, a Hyperion Resources project executive, said he was ecstatic with the outcome.

"We'll continue to work with everyone in the county," he said. "We want to be a good corporate citizen. We want to be a good corporate neighbor."

Despite the approval of the rezoning, Phillips said Elk Point is not the only site being considered and that the site selection process would continue. "Any big project like this has to have options," he said.

Hyperion's next big hurdle is a lengthy air quality permit application being reviewed by the South Dakota Department of Environment and Natural Resources.

"It's going to be a long road before anything's done on it," project opponent Jason Quam said of the refinery.

Besides the permits, he said he doubted Hyperion could secure the financing for the refinery.

Quam, of the group Citizens Against Oil Pollution, said his organization was evaluating its next move.

Elk Point Mayor Isabel Trobaugh said the refinery would bring needed jobs to the county and that she didn't think it would harm the environment.

She said she talked to the mayors of Ponca City, Okla., and El Dorado, Kan. — which both have oil refineries — and they assured her their communities had clean air and water.

Hyperion has said the project, about 60 miles south of Sioux Falls, would create 1,800 permanent jobs and another 4,500 construction jobs over a four-year period. Construction could begin in 2010.

The Hyperion Energy Center would process 400,000 barrels of thick Canadian crude oil a day, which company executives say would help the U.S. reduce its dependence on overseas oil. The company has said it will bring in the crude oil by pipeline but has announced no specific plans for that transportation link.
Hyperion billed the facility as a "green refinery" and said it would produce ultra-low sulfur gasoline and diesel and rank among the cleanest and most environmentally friendly oil refineries in the world.

by **Stephanie** Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:24 pm

ziggy wrote:
Stephanie wrote:So you're answer to their problems is too freaking bad? .

No. That is not what I said. I said that people need to be smart about their personal economics, and which includes decisions about their homes.

I don't buy it.

You know I like you. In fact, you know I like you very, very much, so please don't be too offended by this statement

Jeez. I am not sure even that Ms. Ziggy likes me that much.

You're far too much of a socialist to be speaking honestly here.

Stephanie, you would do well to pay more attention to what I actually say that to what Aaron says about me. I do not deny being a socialist- especially in matters where our economic system denies those at the bottom of the economic pyramid control of their own loves.

We are all socialists of one kind or another. But being a socialist does not preclude expecting people to exercise personal responsibility on matters that are under their control.

The bottom line is, unless something is done to increase the supply of energy in this country ASAP a whole lot of innocent people are going to suffer. You and I both know that is the truth.

As things stand we have millions of Americans just barely making ends meet. They cannot afford the costly type of renovations you're proposing. New England is the oldest area of the country and one of the most dependent upon home heating oil. Some of those states have very high elderly populations living on fixed incomes.

Now you can talk all you like about what they could have done or should have done a decade ago, or two decades ago but that won't change the suffering they will surely face come January & February when winter really kicks into full swing in the northeast. The solution to that problem is to increase the supply of oil.

By the time many of the new technologies you dream of are developed and mass produced, a lot of these people will expire simply because they elderly and their time will have come. What environmentalist who block everything from drilling in ANWR and off our coast to wind farms and nuclear power plants are doing very likely to hasten the deaths of many of them.

I suppose that's one way to decrease our carbon emissions as a nation. Just let the poor and disabled freeze to death rather than doing everything within our power to make heat affordable to them.

by ziggy Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:34 pm

The bottom line is, unless something is done to increase the supply of energy in this country ASAP a whole lot of innocent people are going to suffer. You and I both know that is the truth. .........................................................The solution to that problem is to increase the supply of oil.

What evidence is there that there is any shortage of the "supply of oil"? I do not know of anyone in the energy industry who says that there is. Do you?

What evidence is there that drilling for oil in your back yard, or my back yard (which I wish would happen- I could use the royalty $$$) or anyone else's back yard will result in lower oil product prices for heating oil or any other products?

Are the people who benefit from the high prices of oil going to just roll over and sell fuel oil for 39 or even $3.39 cents a gallon again just because most of it comes from domestic sources? I doubt it.

by ziggy Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:38 pm

Now you can talk all you like about what they could have done or should have done a decade ago, or two decades ago but that won't change the suffering they will surely face come January & February when winter really kicks into full swing in the northeast. The solution to that problem is to increase the supply of oil.

So then, if not 30 years ago, or 20 years ago, or 10 years ago, the time to make those energy efficiency home improvements would be NOW, would it not? If the choice is either freeze to death, or pay $40,000 or more for fuel oil over the next ten years, or fix up "this old house", it's a no brainer.

by **Stephanie** Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:50 pm

Some people will be very, very cold this winter. Apparently their suffering isn't as important to some of their fellow Americans as it should be. I'm a whole lot more concerned about the suffering of people in this country today than I am about the extremely remote possibility of disruption of the migration of a small number of caribou.

by Aaron Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:56 pm

Frank, your lack of knowledge in who benefits the most from high fuel prices is not suprising considering some of the tripe you post.

by SamCogar Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:08 am

ziggy wrote:
SamCogar wrote:Zig, is Medicare gonna pay for all that fixing-uping?

I would not think so.

It should be paid for by the same people who would otherwise either pay higher natural gas bills or who would freeze for lack of a heated home. It is another one of those matters of personal responsibility.

OH, you mean these same people ..... with all their personal responsibilities, .... huh Zigster?

The current report found that West Virginia Medicaid spending increased from $335 million in 1996 to $651 million last year. When combined with federal funding, which accounts for 75 percent of total Medicaid dollars, more than $2.2 billion was spent on the health-insurance program in 2007.

During the same period, West Virginia's Medicaid enrollment increased only slightly from about 350,000 people in 1997 to 392,000 last year.

We got responsibility! We got responsibility!

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