Corporations and their rights

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation

I dont recall our members here ever declaring themselves on the various topics of interest vis-a-vis corporations and the abstract theory thereof.

Apparently, corporations can "acquire" one another. Similar to the practice of slavery amongst real individuals in bygone times.

But what else can they do that real individuals cannot?

Do corporations have more "rights" than real people?

As I understand, corporate "rights" vary from state to state.

Do they have a Corporate "bill of rights" which limits what states can do to limit their power?

Can they join togethor (marry)?

CORPORATION, n.
An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.

http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/c.html

Yes Zig I have seen that definition.

But seriously do corporations actually have more rghts than we do?

Seriously.

shermangeneral wrote:Yes Zig I have seen that definition.

But seriously do corporations actually have more rghts than we do?

Seriously.

Yes.

And the definition I provided was serious. Once you understand that, all the rest of your questions are answered.

ziggy wrote:CORPORATION, n.
An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.

http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/c.html

And exactly who is supposed to be responsible for someone else's actions?

If one of your former tow truck drivers was out disableing cars and then charging to tow them, should you have been held personally responsible for his criminal misconduct even if you had no clue as to what was going on?

Or perhaps your wife, as a partial owne/investor should have been held responsible for illegal activities that she knew nothing about? Does that make sense to you?

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:CORPORATION, n.
An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.

http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/c.html

And exactly who is supposed to be responsible for someone else's actions?

If one of your former tow truck drivers was out disableing cars and then charging to tow them, should you have been held personally responsible for his criminal misconduct even if you had no clue as to what was going on?

That is not a good analogy. The driver found to be doing that would have been held responsible- civilly responsible by the vehicle owner(s), and criminally responsible by the state- including with potentially the loss of his freedom at stake via imprisonment.

A few months ago Masey Energy Co. pleaded guilty to more than 4000 water quality violations. But no real person there was even charged with a crime. But somebody or several somebodys there knew what was going on- and let it keep going on more than 4000 times over several years.

Indivifdual profit without individual responsibility.

If Ziggy had been found to have dumped his household trash into the creek only 4 times, he'd have likely been put in jail for up to a year. If 40 times, jailed for years.
Does that make sense to you?

Ziggy is held responsible- with loss of his freedom held over his head if he isn't responsible. Whose freedom was held over his or her head at Massey?

Indivifdual profit without individual responsibility.

That is right.

It is a way to have rights without responsibility or accountability.

"Limited liability" is what they call it I think.

But as I understand it zig the limitations on liability vary from state to state.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:CORPORATION, n.
An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.

http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/c.html

And exactly who is supposed to be responsible for someone else's actions?

If one of your former tow truck drivers was out disableing cars and then charging to tow them, should you have been held personally responsible for his criminal misconduct even if you had no clue as to what was going on?

That is not a good analogy. The driver found to be doing that would have been held responsible- civilly responsible by the vehicle owner(s), and criminally responsible by the state- including with potentially the loss of his freedom at stake via imprisonment.

A few months ago Masey Energy Co. pleaded guilty to more than 4000 water quality violations. But no real person there was even charged with a crime. But somebody or several somebodys there knew what was going on- and let it keep going on more than 4000 times over several years.

Indivifdual profit without individual responsibility.

If Ziggy had been found to have dumped his household trash into the creek only 4 times, he'd have likely been put in jail for up to a year. If 40 times, jailed for years.
Does that make sense to you?

Ziggy is held responsible- with loss of his freedom held over his head if he isn't responsible. Whose freedom was held over his or her head at Massey?

Indivifdual profit without individual responsibility.

So who's fault is it that there is no individual responsibility Frank? If your beloved government wants to put people in jail for those violations, they can. OSHA and MSHA both have provisions for doing just that. But that is NOT what YOUR government wants, is it? They want the money from the resulting fines for those violations.

The ONLY reason there is no individual responsibility is becasue the government doesn't enforce CURRENT laws. PERIOD.

Does that make sense to you Frank!!!

And as much as you may want everyone to believe that the government would put Frank or Mrs. Frank in jail for throwing garbage in the creek, we both know it's a load of manure. IF, and that's a big if, there was criminal charges for your or the Mrs. Actions, all they would result in is a fine. Once again, all the government wants is money.

Well at the risk of being castigated, called names, etc. I must disagree Aaron.

If it is once or twice and not blatant then no zig would not go to jail.

But if he did like Massey and just thumbed his nose and continued dumping then yes he would go to jail.

So much as you deny it there is a difference.

Big corporations do what they want.

Especially coal companies in wv, since they are bigger and more powerful than state gvt.

MSHA, including West Virginia inspectors have the resources to put those that thumb their noses in jail Sherm.

So exactly who's fault is it that federal and state mine inspectors don't do their job?

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:CORPORATION, n.
An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.

http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/c.html

And exactly who is supposed to be responsible for someone else's actions?

If one of your former tow truck drivers was out disableing cars and then charging to tow them, should you have been held personally responsible for his criminal misconduct even if you had no clue as to what was going on?

That is not a good analogy. The driver found to be doing that would have been held responsible- civilly responsible by the vehicle owner(s), and criminally responsible by the state- including with potentially the loss of his freedom at stake via imprisonment.

A few months ago Masey Energy Co. pleaded guilty to more than 4000 water quality violations. But no real person there was even charged with a crime. But somebody or several somebodys there knew what was going on- and let it keep going on more than 4000 times over several years.

Indivifdual profit without individual responsibility.

If Ziggy had been found to have dumped his household trash into the creek only 4 times, he'd have likely been put in jail for up to a year. If 40 times, jailed for years.
Does that make sense to you?

Ziggy is held responsible- with loss of his freedom held over his head if he isn't responsible. Whose freedom was held over his or her head at Massey?

Indivifdual profit without individual responsibility.

So who's fault is it that there is no individual responsibility Frank? If your beloved government wants to put people in jail for those violations, they can. OSHA and MSHA both have provisions for doing just that. But that is NOT what YOUR government wants, is it? They want the money from the resulting fines for those violations.

The ONLY reason there is no individual responsibility is becasue the government doesn't enforce CURRENT laws. PERIOD.

Does that make sense to you Frank!!!

And as much as you may want everyone to believe that the government would put Frank or Mrs. Frank in jail for throwing garbage in the creek, we both know it's a load of manure. IF, and that's a big if, there was criminal charges for your or the Mrs. Actions, all they would result in is a fine. Once again, all the government wants is money.

Then why are the jails jammed with real people, charged with crimes committed by those people- but very, very , very few, if even any, of those people were jailed for crimes committed in the course of corporate criminality?

Whose fault is it? It is primarily the fault of the corporate lobbyists and lawmakers who cause to be enacted laws allowing limited liability to corporations and their managers and other employees, and of the state governors and U.S. Presidents who sign those legislative acts into law.

It is also the "fault" of a political system that treats bribery of a public official as a crime- but exempts bribes paid in the course of political campaigns- but which such campaigns are always going on- as a practical matter extending from one election to the next.

Well Aaron I know just enough about this to be dangerous.

As I understand it the Federal regulations allow (and encourage) the states to exercise primacy in enforcement.

And like I said above the coal companies are too big for the state of wv to regulate.

They should turn it over to the feds imo.

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:CORPORATION, n.
An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.

http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/c.html

And exactly who is supposed to be responsible for someone else's actions?

If one of your former tow truck drivers was out disableing cars and then charging to tow them, should you have been held personally responsible for his criminal misconduct even if you had no clue as to what was going on?

That is not a good analogy. The driver found to be doing that would have been held responsible- civilly responsible by the vehicle owner(s), and criminally responsible by the state- including with potentially the loss of his freedom at stake via imprisonment.

A few months ago Masey Energy Co. pleaded guilty to more than 4000 water quality violations. But no real person there was even charged with a crime. But somebody or several somebodys there knew what was going on- and let it keep going on more than 4000 times over several years.

Indivifdual profit without individual responsibility.

If Ziggy had been found to have dumped his household trash into the creek only 4 times, he'd have likely been put in jail for up to a year. If 40 times, jailed for years.
Does that make sense to you?

Ziggy is held responsible- with loss of his freedom held over his head if he isn't responsible. Whose freedom was held over his or her head at Massey?

Indivifdual profit without individual responsibility.

So who's fault is it that there is no individual responsibility Frank? If your beloved government wants to put people in jail for those violations, they can. OSHA and MSHA both have provisions for doing just that. But that is NOT what YOUR government wants, is it? They want the money from the resulting fines for those violations.

The ONLY reason there is no individual responsibility is becasue the government doesn't enforce CURRENT laws. PERIOD.

Does that make sense to you Frank!!!

And as much as you may want everyone to believe that the government would put Frank or Mrs. Frank in jail for throwing garbage in the creek, we both know it's a load of manure. IF, and that's a big if, there was criminal charges for your or the Mrs. Actions, all they would result in is a fine. Once again, all the government wants is money.

Then why are the jails jammed with real people, charged with crimes committed by those people- but very, very , very few, if even any, of those people were jailed for crimes committed in the course of corporate criminality?

Whose fault is it? It is primarily the fault of the corporate lobbyists and lawmakers who cause to be enacted laws allowing limited liability to corporations and their managers and other employees, and of the state governors and U.S. Presidents who sign those legislative acts into law.

It is also the "fault" of a political system that treats bribery of a public official as a crime- but exempts bribes paid in the course of political campaigns- but which such campaigns are always going on- as a practical matter extending from one election to the next.

You want to fault the briber for putting the money out there. I fault the one who accepts the bribe for taking the money. It all goes back to personal responsibility. Any way you slice it, it is the government that in the end, controls the rules and regulations thus it is the fault of the government for NOT doing what they were elected to do.

shermangeneral wrote:Well Aaron I know just enough about this to be dangerous.

As I understand it the Federal regulations allow (and encourage) the states to exercise primacy in enforcement.

And like I said above the coal companies are too big for the state of wv to regulate.

They should turn it over to the feds imo.

So you're saying West Virginians lack the backbone to do what they were elected to do, huh Sherm!!!

I said what I said.

Why do you feel compelled to say I said something else.?

You aspiring to be a news reporter or something?

Aaron wrote:

ziggy wrote:Then why are the jails jammed with real people, charged with crimes committed by those people- but very, very , very few, if even any, of those people were jailed for crimes committed in the course of corporate criminality?

Whose fault is it? It is primarily the fault of the corporate lobbyists and lawmakers who cause to be enacted laws allowing limited liability to corporations and their managers and other employees, and of the state governors and U.S. Presidents who sign those legislative acts into law.

It is also the "fault" of a political system that treats bribery of a public official as a crime- but exempts bribes paid in the course of political campaigns- but which such campaigns are always going on- as a practical matter extending from one election to the next.

You want to fault the briber for putting the money out there. I fault the one who accepts the bribe for taking the money. It all goes back to personal responsibility. Any way you slice it, it is the government that in the end, controls the rules and regulations thus it is the fault of the government for NOT doing what they were elected to do.

Whether you blamer the briber or the bribee- both of whom are at fault- none of that changes the fact that a corporation is:

CORPORATION, n.
An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.

cor·po·ra·tion

cor·po·ra·tion [kàwrpə ráysh’n]
(plural cor·po·ra·tions)
n
1. group regarded as individual by law: a company recognized by law as a single body with its own powers and liabilities, separate from those of the individual members.
Corporations perform many of the functions of private business, governments, educational bodies, and the professions.
2. local governing authority: the governing authority of an incorporated municipality, for example, a city or town
3. group acting as single entity: a group of people acting as a single entity


[15th century. From late Latin corporation- , from corporatus (see corporate ).]
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Nice try though Frank.

Well we are not talking about linguistic or symantic considerations. We are talking about the legal/political implications and subtleties.

(are you doing a chicken dance Aaron?)

No Sherm, I've pretty much said who I think is at fault. A corporation is nothing more then a group of people working together for a common goal-making money. Yes, some of those corporations (I would say it is a very small minority) do things they shouldn't. Some out of ignorance, others out of greed and others because they just don't care (less then 1% of 1% of 1% of all corporations).

When those corporations step out of line, it is the responsibility of oversight, i.e., the government, to put them back in line but whatever means they deem reasonable, up to and including jail time. The problem is, about the only thing the government wants from corporations is their money.

You and Frank want to blame the gross negligence and failures of the government on corporations. I don't see it that way. The way I see it is the government wants the same thing you and Frank do. Corporations money without actually having to work for it. If they can’t tax enough of it, they got no problem fining until the get what they want.

That to me, is much worse then all but the most criminal actions any corporation has ever committed.

Does that seem like a dance to you Sherm?

No that is better Aaron.

Sometimes you just have to be challenged or called out.

Then you quit the chicken dance and just say what you think.

Well I gotta go do some honey do's.

Will ck. back in a couple hrs ok.

Maybe we can pay tribute to those who are responsible for this xtra day off.

shermangeneral wrote:Well at the risk of being castigated, called names, etc. I must disagree Aaron.

If it is once or twice and not blatant then no zig would not go to jail.

But if he did like Massey and just thumbed his nose and continued dumping then yes he would go to jail.

So much as you deny it there is a difference.

Big corporations do what they want.

Especially coal companies in wv, since they are bigger and more powerful than state gvt.

But Shermmy, none of the Federal or State Coal Mine Inspectors are ever prosecuted and sent to Jail. And none of the Union Inspectors working via contract for coal companies are either.

And even though I know fer sure that many WVSPTs avert their eyes to many violations of WV Law, ...... none are ever prosecuted and sent to Jail.

When there is such a rampart "Culture of Corruption" in WV, there is very little one can do except bitch n' complain and ...... "listen to" those biased ones who are intent on "goring another's ox".



.

Well Sam you continually claim to have firsthand knowledge about all this crime and corruption so why not take action yourself.?

Have you ever attended the opening of a court session?

The officer of the Court clearly announces that the Court is now in session, Honorable Judge so and so presiding.

He then invites any person having actions to prosecute, motions to make, or pleas to enter
to "come forth and you shall be heard."

So next time Braxton County Circuit Court is in session just trot on down and show them what you got Sam.

shermangeneral wrote:Well Sam you continually claim to have firsthand knowledge about all this crime and corruption so why not take action yourself.?

Have you ever attended the opening of a court session?

The officer of the Court clearly announces that the Court is now in session, Honorable Judge so and so presiding.

He then invites any person having actions to prosecute, motions to make, or pleas to enter
to "come forth and you shall be heard."

So next time Braxton County Circuit Court is in session just trot on down and show them what you got Sam.

Sherm, why didn'ja just say whatcha wasa thunking,

"Go for it Sam, ..... just try to fight City Hall ."



.

Well Sam it is not an everyday occurence but it does happen from time to time that individuals take action when a prosecutor does not.

What kind of offense are you talking about?

Something substantial, or did you see someone throw a chewing gum wrapper out?