WV Forum for News, Politics, and Sports
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

An old hippy draft resister comments

4 posters

Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by ziggy Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:48 pm

Jim Vacarella Describes Avoiding the Draft During the Vietnam War

For young men like Jim Vacarella, the draft stood as the prime symbol of the war in Vietnam. Millions of young men tried to evade the draft: some fled to Canada; many feigned physical or mental illness, others used family connections to gain safe positions in the National Guard. For some, resisting the draft became an important way of protesting the war, and a few thousand men took public stands as draft resistors, burning their draft cards and challenging the government to imprison them. Jim Vacarella was one of those who burned his draft card, although he was lucky enough to avoid prison.

VACARELLA: May 10th, two FBI agents showed up at my house and said I was identified throwing rocks, participating in a rally. And they said that I could have a lawyer if I wanted and if I didn’t want then I could do this interview. My father said I should have a lawyer. I said, “I have nothing to hide.” And all they wanted, they were just local FBI, from Niagara Falls, New York, they were from Buffalo, they just wanted, they were told to come and see me and find out if I knew any names. And I gave them all these nicknames. I never gave anybody’s name. And five days later, the 15th of May, I got my first draft notice. And it says, “Greetings from the President of the United States. You are hereby inducted, hereby ordered to report for induction.” O.K. That induction notice I took to my local draft board. My father grew up with the guy. He, as we all know they used to do, fixed it for two months. Two months later, I received my second draft notice. I burned that. I burned my card. I turned them into marijuana joints, huge marijuana joints with a bunch of other protestors. Believe me, I got in so much trouble for this. It was incredible.

I received my second draft notice, in, school started I think it was the 28th of September, if I’m not mistaken in those days. And I was enrolled again. And I received that second draft notice. We burned it like I said. We, lots of us burned it! We went to Washington, we marched on Washington. I marched any place I could. I attended every rally I could. I thought it was open warfare. And we really did.

The third one came in December to me to report in January. And I left for California. And I was on the lam for the next three years. And I wasn’t on the lam where I was hiding but I just didn’t have, I didn’t rent an apartment under my name, I didn’t have a phone under my name. So I just was sort of incognito, I thought I was anyway. And the FBI came to my house a second time, but I wasn’t there, I was gone. And they saw my father, my father recognized them and he said, “Come in, what can we do for you?” [FBI]: “Well, your son has left, he’s received three draft notices. Hasn’t reported either, not even one of the three. The first one had said that it was taken care of by the draft board, but that’s number three, number three. Now this is a federal offense.” And he said, “Well, I’m not real sure where he is.” And they said, “Well, we know where he is, we know exactly where he is.” So the next time I called my father, he says, “They know where you are!”

So then I started to move. I was on the move again. And I came back and joined a rock-n-roll band in 1971, '72, and we were going to record with Apple Records and didn’t hear a thing and we were really on the move. This band and I were on the move. And in the fall of 1973 Nixon was resigning, it was, all Watergate was broken loose. So it was plain that he was going to be impeached or he was going to resign.

And, in the paper, in the Buffalo Evening News, was my name, federal indictment. 125,000 men around the country were indicted for refusing to be drafted in the United States Army. And my name was in there. And so I went through a lot of hell for that. And I finally said, “Its got to be a lawyer. I got to do this right now. This really has to be the right way.” Went with a lawyer, went down. Nixon resigned. Ford came in. He gave us a partial amnesty. Partial amnesty included two years. You had two years of one of your three choices: the Army, CO work (conscientious objector), jail. Make your pick, you’re at the federal court in Buffalo, make your pick. You stand up with your lawyer. Which one do you want? We stood up and we said, “We’ll take the Army.” Boom! Five days later, I got my fourth draft notice, my fourth order, draft order. And the day before I went in, just to see, I’m not going in the Army now, of course, after the Kent State shootings. There’s no possible way I’m going to do this now. And I went in there and they said you know, “What are you doing here?” [Jim]: “Well, nothing.” And this guy said, I won’t mention his name, but boy he saved me, and he said, “Come back tomorrow, you come and see me.” So I did. He failed me on all, every single test. He said, “We want no one in the Army who doesn’t want to be here anymore. That’s over with. The draft is over. Since the lottery the draft was over. And we don’t want anybody who doesn’t want to be in.”

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6929/


" He said, “We want no one in the Army who doesn’t want to be here "

And, to be sure, that was the attitude of a lot of Army screeners- even before the draft was ended. And all one had to do was know that.


Last edited by ziggy on Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by ziggy Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:59 pm

Either way - it was something we all hated, because we knew we were on Uncle Sam's radar.

At the age of 18, every red-blooded, living, breathing American male had to present themselves to the offices of the Selective Service System a/k/a their local draft board for registration. Shortly thereafter, you received a Draft Card which had your Draft Status on it....and I hope I can remember all of them....at least the pertinent ones since there were some that were kind of obscure for ministerial students, people who were married with young children and the like. I-A meant you weren't doing anything all that important and if your Draft Board needed warm bodies to fill their quota you would would be among the first to get a letter in the mail from no less than "The President of the United States" that started out "Greetings...." You would then be instructed that on such-and-such a date, you would present yourself to the Armed Forces Induction Station where you would be poked and prodded, given psychological exams, IQ tests etc. etc. - usually dressed only in your underwear - to prove that you were, indeed suitable and fit to go to the jungles of Southeast Asia and kill Charlie a/k/a The Viet Cong and the regular Army of North Viet Nam. If you were lucky, at this point, they might find something wrong with you. If they found anything wrong with you, physically or mentally, you would be reclassified either I-Y which meant you had some sort of problem. In my case, it was chronic stomach spasms which got me the blessed I-Y and kept me home. If you were I-Y, you would only be drafted in the event of a worldwide cataclysmic event such as World War III. Otherwise, you were pretty safe and could lead a normal life. Or, you might be lucky enough to get a IV-F which meant you were physically or mentally screwed up - badly. Such things as blindness, deafness, missing limbs, being a paraplegic, would get you a IV-F. You could also get a IV-F for being under psychiatric care. A person classified IV-F never had to worry - they were safe no matter what. When I went for the first of 3 pre-induction physicals - yes, I was drafted 3 times before they decided they never wanted me - there was a blind guy, and a guy in a wheelchair who had both been selected for pre-induction physicals.

There was one other major category of deferment and that was the II-S which meant you were a college student with good grades and as long you maintained an average of 2.0 (later changed to 2.5 when they began to run out of manpower), you were safe. This was how I managed to get drafted 3 times before getting my coveted I-Y - too much partying, too much sex, drugs and rock and roll, and grades that were just a little bit higher than the guys at Delta Tau Chi in "Animal House," but not much!

One other way of avoiding the draft - like George W. Bush - was to be in the National Guard or Air Guard, but by 1966-67, the Guard units were full and only the privileged with connections - like Bush - were able to get into the Guard. There was a special classification for that as well, but I couldn't begin to tell you what it was.

So, that was the way it was until the late 1960's - early 1970's when they went to a lottery system. The lottery system was very simple - and yes, there were ways out of it - for a brief period of time. The way the lottery system worked was that every day of the year was written down on a piece of paper, ping pong ball, something and dumped into a large fishbowl. Then, they would start with Number 1 and pull a date. People who celebrated their birthday on that date could anticipate receiving one of those "Greetings" letters from the President very soon. The only way out was if you were in the middle of a school year - they at least had the decency to let you finish the semester - then it was off to be trained in the ways of becoming a killing machine, unless of course, you had taken off to Canada and sanctuary in the interim. However, if you had some college, by 1970, that was an automatic trip to Officer Candidate School where you would come out as a Second Lieutenant, skilled in the ways of warfare and ready to lead your own platoon into the jungles of Viet Nam. Before the lottery, you had to tell them you had been in college and after your basic training, they would ship you off to OCS. If you didn't tell them, you were just another grunt.

And, of course, the lottery went all the way to 365 - as a rule, anyone above 200 could figure they were pretty safe. As I recall, my number the first time they did it was something like 263, so even if I hadn't had my coveted I-Y, I would have been pretty safe. As to Canada, I knew a number of people who made that trip, and to the best of my knowledge, they are still there to this day.

Young people today don't realize how lucky they are not having the spectre of "The Draft" looming over them. One of the things which the lottery system did do was it equalized the draft to a certain extent, since prior to that, more minorities were drafted since they generally could not afford to go to college and would wind up in a non-essential job. That's why a larger percentage of Blacks were in Viet Nam than there were Caucasions - they couldn't afford to hide out in college or as George Bush did. What was sad about it was, the Black soldiers were over there fighting and dying and when they came back home, were still treated like crap and didn't enjoy nearly as many freedoms as the white guys did. So, the lottery tended to make everyone equal, even though some people were still more equal than others.

After Viet Nam, the military become all-volunteer, and the rest as they say is history.

http://askville.amazon.com/time-United-States-instituted-draft-Vietnam-War-explain-worked/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=14698653
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by Cato Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:13 am

And yet, you support the very same government that brought you the draft, taking money from one and giving the fruit of your labors to another.

The premise is just the same. The draft indicated that the state felt it owned you. The redistribution of wealth indicates that the state feels it owns all the you have earned.

Cato

Number of posts : 2010
Location : Behind my desk
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by Aaron Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:47 am

Seems old Jim ran for 3 or 4 years and finally stood up when Ford was President.

And in your second scenario, the author described many ways to keep from going to Vietnam.

These are all reasonable.

None of the example given though involved not wanting to go and getting a bus ticket home.

That's just not reasonable.
Aaron
Aaron

Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by ziggy Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:11 am

That is "not reasonable" because you are trying to "make sense" of events that took place in a non-sensical era.

The whole Vietnam War as conducted by Lyndon Johnson was "just not reasonable". The standard of that bellicose bastard was to proclaim one goddamned lie after another that, as you say, was "just not reasonable". So it is not surprising that others used their own versions of unreasonable nonsense to fuck over him while he was trying to fuck over us.

And it worked. By 1968 the man who had in 1964 polled a popular vote margin of over 22 percentage points- a record that stands still today- knew that his conduct of the Vietnam War had ended his remarkable political career. And so he declined to run for another term as president.

And as the old saying goes, it could not have happened to a better feller.
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by Keli Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:38 am

Ziggy, what war was worthy of your service?
Keli
Keli

Number of posts : 3608
Age : 73
Location : Zarr Chasm, WV--between Flotsam and Belch on the Cheat River
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by ziggy Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:04 pm

Keli the Grey wrote:Ziggy, what war was worthy of your service?

During my lifetime? None, in my opinion.

In history before 1945? The American revolution, maybe. WW II, maybe. The civil war, maybe. In the war(s) against native American Indians, yes, definately- on the side of the Indians.

So Keli, what wars were worthy of your service?
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by Keli Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:21 pm

ziggy wrote:
Keli the Grey wrote:Ziggy, what war was worthy of your service?

During my lifetime? None, in my opinion.

In history before 1945? The American revolution, maybe. WW II, maybe. The civil war, maybe. In the war(s) against native American Indians, yes, definately- on the side of the Indians.

So Keli, what wars were worthy of your service?

None...I would liked to have waited for a good war--one acceptable by you and your ilk; but, I served in Vietnam and am proud of it! And, my only regret is that I was not intense enough. It might have helped to prevent the Killing Fields of Cambodia and totalitarian domination of a Democratic Republic--SVN. I think that you old hippies CYA in ex post facto basking in your bravery and intelligence as war protesters. However, that is what we fight to preserve--so go at it.
Keli
Keli

Number of posts : 3608
Age : 73
Location : Zarr Chasm, WV--between Flotsam and Belch on the Cheat River
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by ziggy Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:30 pm

So there were no wars worthy of your service- but you are proud to have "served" in Veitnam anyway?

That's one more example of, as I said above, that it was a non-sensical era.
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by ziggy Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:36 pm

I think that you old hippies CYA in ex post facto basking in your bravery and intelligence as war protesters. However, that is what we fight to preserve--so go at it.

But you lost that war- and we won it. So save your smug pride for some other war on some other day.

The Warrior-in-Chief's concession statement is here:

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/Johnson/archives.hom/speeches.hom/680331.asp

Accordingly, I shall not seek, and I will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your President.

VICTORY!
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by Keli Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:09 pm

ziggy wrote:
I think that you old hippies CYA in ex post facto basking in your bravery and intelligence as war protesters. However, that is what we fight to preserve--so go at it.

But you lost that war- and we won it. So save your smug pride for some other war on some other day.

The Warrior-in-Chief's concession statement is here:

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/Johnson/archives.hom/speeches.hom/680331.asp

Accordingly, I shall not seek, and I will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your President.

VICTORY!

The vermin you hobnob with also said we lost in Iraq. You have no credibility.
Keli
Keli

Number of posts : 3608
Age : 73
Location : Zarr Chasm, WV--between Flotsam and Belch on the Cheat River
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by Aaron Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:00 pm

ziggy wrote:
VICTORY!

President Lyndon B. Johnson's Address to the Nation
Announcing Steps To Limit the War in Vietnam and
Reporting His Decision Not To Seek Reelection
March 31, 1968


Laughing Laughing Laughing

Yeah, the draft dodgers is why LBJ didn't run again.

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Washington, D.C. March 16, 1968

You have some very strange ways of looking at things Ziggy.
Aaron
Aaron

Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by ziggy Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:23 pm

Keli the Grey wrote:
ziggy wrote:
I think that you old hippies CYA in ex post facto basking in your bravery and intelligence as war protesters. However, that is what we fight to preserve--so go at it.

But you lost that war- and we won it. So save your smug pride for some other war on some other day.

The Warrior-in-Chief's concession statement is here:

http://www.lbjlib.utexas.edu/Johnson/archives.hom/speeches.hom/680331.asp

Accordingly, I shall not seek, and I will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your President.

VICTORY!

The vermin you hobnob with also said we lost in Iraq. You have no credibility.

How much credibility do Lyndon Johnson and George W. Bush have?

If the Cheney-Bush bunch could magically do just one thing over- like get one wish from the jeanie who popped out of the bottle- it would be to have left Iraq to hell alone back in 2003. But their lemmings to the sea apologists and the "vermon they hobnob with" will ever be honest enough to admit it.
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by ziggy Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:33 pm

Yeah, the draft dodgers is why LBJ didn't run again.

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

The widespread anti-war sentiments of the nation by 1968- which the draft dodgers helped to kindle- are why LBJ didn't run again.
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by Cato Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:52 pm

ziggy wrote:
How much credibility do Lyndon Johnson and George W. Bush have?

Niether have any. Neither does the anti-war movement. The whole bunch suck in my book. Here's why.

Johnson along with Kennedy and Nixon farted around and never fought the stinking thing like they intended to win. The way I understand it Johnson had the NOrth darn near to their knees bombing them, then he just quit. Johnson and Nixon both had the oppertunity to bring the North to its knees and they didn't. Whether or not the war is just, you certainly don't fight it to have a draw. You fight the stupid thing to win as quickly as possible. Our sorry butted politicians didn't have the balls to do that. Alot of good people died in the process.

George W. Bush didn't do any better. He listened to a bunch of war hawk pansies like Powell and didn't put the man power into Iraq that was needed to win decisively, in fact to win at all. Again Bush and his pals fought a war like it was agame in which the idea was not to win, but to get a far as possible without any bad press. The good as wellas the bad die. That's the nature of war. Additionally, if you truly want to avoid war, then war has to be made so horrible that few if any want to fight it.

What our politicans seem to want is to fight a war without fighting a war. War isn't sanitary and its isn't without collateral lose. War can't be fought with politicians worrying about what the New York Times and CNN are going to say. Just think what our terrorist enemies would have thought, if we had tore into Iraq and Afganistan without any regard for anything other than to destory the terorists and to break any terrorist organization will to wage war. I don't imagine we'd have to worry so much about what their next move was going to be and I don't imagine any nation would be too interesting in supporting terrorist activities.

Then we have the anti-war crowd. While some may have really good intentions, they have got to be the sheepish group of people on the face of the earth. What theya re more than anything else is a help to the enemy we are facing. It is one thing to speak out against the war and to let the politicans know how you feel. It is quite another to go on the media and bad mouth the military and give mpraise to the people we are fighting. While both is protect under the 1st amendment, it is morally reprehensible. People like John Murtha, Sandy Sheehan, John Kerry, and many of the Hollywood elite are litttle more than propaganda tools for people that would just love to see this nation fall.

Now that I have said all of that, here is afew comments about our politicans who have got us in this prediciment. We had no business in Iraq, Vietnam, Korea, or a number of the other hellholes we have fought. First, we did belong because both our leaders and a vast majority of thepublic lack the courage and wherewithal to fight a war and win it.

Most importantly however, few if any of the nations we have fought ever posed a direct threat to us. To use the excuse we are naiton building is to make us no better than the people we say we are fighting. To use the excuse that we are making the world safe is also a falacy. We aren't making it any safer, nor is it our responsibility to make the world safe. Our responsibiliy as to safety ends at our borders and 12 mile off our coasts. OUr leaders have forgotten or just simply ignore that fact any more.

Cato

Number of posts : 2010
Location : Behind my desk
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by Aaron Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:20 pm

They say the winners get to write history. And I guess since LBJ and RFK are no longer around and you are, you somehow get to re-write history to your version.

Of course that's not what most of the documentaries I've seen about LBJ say but hey, who are they to question the almight Ziggy?

After all, it si the great and almight Ziggh who did what nearly 2 million others couldn't when he told uncle Sam, "Hey, I don't want to go" and they said, ok and gave him his bus ticket home.
Aaron
Aaron

Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by ziggy Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:15 pm

Many more people than Ziggy learned how to work the political system against itself in the mid and late 1960s.

And that it had changed so much by only 10 or 12 years later is the evidence of it.
ziggy
ziggy
Moderator

Number of posts : 5731
Location : Jackson County, WV
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by Aaron Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:42 pm

You'll have to explain what you mean.
Aaron
Aaron

Number of posts : 9841
Age : 58
Location : Putnam County for now
Registration date : 2007-12-28

Back to top Go down

An old hippy draft resister comments Empty Re: An old hippy draft resister comments

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum